The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Fyraltari]

Many, if not most, Thalmor spies aren't even Altmer (Wouldn't be that great at infiltrating the other nations if they were.) A lot aren't even elves of any kind. They aren't all in for the elven supremacy, they just want money or petty power, or just for things to change without caring what they change to.

Oh, my bad, I thought you were talking the entire Thalmor, not just their assets in enemy territory.

The majority of their assets are dispossessed, poor, hiding shameful things or criminal acts, or fools who think they can gain some position of authority in the times to come. Probably a few conspiracy theorists who keep picking at things done by their local authorities while ignoring the crimes of the Thalmor because they conflict with their idea that their own immediate enemy is the most evil thing in the world.

But these people aren't the Thalmor's agents, they're the informants the actual agents such as Elenwen, Ancano and their underlings pay to tell them about anything interesting. I doubt the Thalmor trust them farther than they can throw them.

The Mythic Dawn largely interests the same kind of people, people who are desperate, blackmailed into service, seeking power or want change of any kind. Not everyone in the cult will have really believed in the whole revolution through apocalypse thing, at least not literally, and those that did truly believe ultimately had a fate no better than the others.

I dunno, it's not like the Mythic Dawn went around handing pamphlets. the people who joined had to track down specific, very esoteric books and decypher the hidden instructions, you don't do that if you're not already into this stuff a lot.

Lol, that explains how he got to the prison: with his three fastest guards, Renault, Peugeot, and Citroen. "Move aside prisoner, vroom vroom!"

I wonder if it's a Casablanca reference?

Uriel is not by any means "an early king". And the cousins (eg.Titus Mede) cannot keep the Dragonfire lit.

I don't think Titus Mede is supposed to be a close relative of the Septims'. As a Cyrodiilic noble, he's probably a distant relation, like most of the nobility.

Also, cousins would have most likely been totally able to keep the Dragonfires up, Empress Katariah was a Dunmer, only related to the septims by marriage and nothing happened during her forty-six years of rule.

Since we're on the subject, does the game ever actually say that Martin is illegitimate? His status as a Septim was secret, but I don't recall the game ever saying who his mother was either way.

What other reason would there be to hide his existence?

[Keltest]

What other reason would there be to hide his existence?

You mean besides the exact circumstance that comes up? Remember that Uriel was kind of prophetic.

[Rynjin]

I don't think Titus Mede is supposed to be a close relative of the Septims'. As a Cyrodiilic noble, he's probably a distant relation, like most of the nobility.

He's closely related enough to retain the gift of prophecy, if only to see his own death.

Also, cousins would have most likely been totally able to keep the Dragonfires up, Empress Katariah was a Dunmer, only related to the septims by marriage and nothing happened during her forty-six years of rule.

Katariah bore an heir of Septim blood, by my recollection, which would keep things stable. I think the combination of Martin being the last conceivable heir left alive and Mehrunes Dagon attempting an invasion at the exact time that discontinuity was available is what caused the oblivion Crisis. The Dragonfires had gone out before, but it wasn't a big deal. It's likely they went out when Katariah was on the throne as well.

Or perhaps they needed to be relit some arbitrary length of time after last lighting or something or something like that. Uriel ruled for over 60 years, maybe the Mythic Dawn struck when it was time for the ritual again?

[Fyraltari]

You mean besides the exact circumstance that comes up? Remember that Uriel was kind of prophetic.

I suppose that it possible, but I doubt his wife would have agreed to it. And we know he wasn't faithful. Adultery seems like the most probable hypothesis.

[GloatingSwine]

Jauffre is the one that calls Martin an illegitimate son.

[Fyraltari]

He's closely related enough to retain the gift of prophecy, if only to see his own death.

... I don't think we know how Titus I died? And Titus II doesn't seem to have a gift of prophecy, he just thinks the Dark Brotherhood can't be stopped. And many non-Septims have the gift of prophecy.

Not that it would matter much, since Uriel is the only Septim credited with fore-knowledge and that is implied to have come from his time in Oblivion. And that by the time the Mede dynasty established itself, the dragonfires had been replaced anyway.

Katariah bore an heir of Septim blood, by my recollection, which would keep things stable.
I think the combination of Martin being the last conceivable heir left alive and Mehrunes Dagon attempting an invasion at the exact time that discontinuity was available is what caused the oblivion Crisis. The Dragonfires had gone out before, but it wasn't a big deal. It's likely they went out when Katariah was on the throne as well.

Or perhaps they needed to be relit some arbitrary length of time after last lighting or something or something like that. Uriel ruled for over 60 years, maybe the Mythic Dawn struck when it was time for the ritual again?

The Dragonfires go extinct the moment the sitting emperor dies. That is why Jagar Tharn elected not to kill Uriel but to send him to a pocket plane of Oblivion, where the slower flow of times would ensure that that the fires would stay lit for hundreds of years.

As for Katariah 's heir...

[indent]

When Cassynder assumed the throne upon the death of his mother, he was already middle-aged. Only half Elven, he aged like a Breton. In fact, he had left the rule of Wayrest to his half-brother Uriel due to poor health. Nevertheless, as the only true blood relation of Pelagius and thus Tiber, he was pressed into accepting the throne. To no one's surprise, the Emperor Cassynder's reign did not last long. In two years he joined his predecessors in eternal slumber.

Uriel Lariat, Cassynder's half-brother, and the child of Katariah I and her Imperial consort Gallivere Lariat (after the death of Pelagius III), left the kingdom of Wayrest to reign as Uriel IV. Legally, Uriel IV was a Septim: Cassynder had adopted him into the royal family when he had become King of Wayrest. Nevertheless, to the Council and the people of Tamriel, he was a bastard child of Katariah. Uriel did not possess the dynamism of his mother, and his long forty-three-year reign was a hotbed of sedition.

[...]

despite the Lariat Family's high position -- indeed, they were distant cousins of the Septims -- few of the Elder Council could be persuaded to accept him fully as a blood descendant of Tiber.

[.;.]

The Council's last victory over Uriel IV was posthumous. Andorak, Uriel IV's son, was disinherited by vote of Council, and a cousin more closely related to the original Septim line was proclaimed Cephorus II in 3E247. For the first nine years of Cephorus II's reign, those loyal to Andorak battled the Imperial forces. In an act that the Sage Eraintine called "Tiber Septim's heart beating no more," the Council granted Andorak the High Rock kingdom of Shornhelm to end the war, and Andorak's descendants still rule there.

Even if we assume Katariah somehow used Cassynder to lit the Fires during her reign (which I doubt), this shows that distant cousins are acceptable heirs (it's not like Tiber Septim has any known living blood descendants, anyway) and that their seems to be no lacking of those in Tamrielic nobility , hell we know the Lariats are.

[Grim Portent]

But these people aren't the Thalmor's agents, they're the informants the actual agents such as Elenwen, Ancano and their underlings pay to tell them about anything interesting. I doubt the Thalmor trust them farther than they can throw them.

The Thalmor don't even trust each other as far as they can throw each other.

There's hints at class resentment between the robes and the soldiers during the embassy quest.

I dunno, it's not like the Mythic Dawn went around handing pamphlets. the people who joined had to track down specific, very esoteric books and decypher the hidden instructions, you don't do that if you're not already into this stuff a lot.

In Cyrodiil for Mankar's main cult yeah, I doubt coded instructions specific to the capital city would be relevant to an aspiring member in Skyrim or Elsweyr, and IIRC it's stated the cult was in every province. Either they were shipping agents out en masse over the years without being noticed or they had more ways of recruitment than the one that leads the Hero of Kvatch to Mankar.




Trying to figure out an internally consistent set of rules for the Dragonfires has always seemed a bit of a dead end to me. Tied to the bloodline of Alessia via the covenant of Akatosh, who lived so long ago that basically every Imperial should qualify, then tied to the Septim bloodline which is from Skyrim originally as I recall, has no clear relation to Alessia and is quite widespread, BUUUT only Uriel Septim's kids were candidates during the Oblivion crisis because reasons.

I just chalk it up to Akatosh being somewhat poetic or metaphorical when describing the purpose of the Amulet of Kings, which has then been misinterpreted or deliberately lied about by people since. A lack of reliable narrators is a thing in the Elder Scrolls franchise after all. The amulet, worn by someone destined to sit on the Imperial throne, can be used to light the dragonfires. Bloodline is not strictly relevant except in that most of the people who are supposed to be Emperor are going to be related to previous emperors, the actually important part is the implicit promise made to and by the Nine with the humans of Cyrodiil.

At the time of the Oblivion crisis Martin was the only one who could become emperor because of all the relatives of Uriel he was the only one who could or would sacrifice himself in the final moment. Destiny turning on two people and all that jazz.

[Keltest]

Worth pointing out, Martin is the only one they knew qualified. That doesnt mean he was the only Dragonborn at the time, just the only one we could find. Its not like the others were going around eating dragons to identify themselves.

[Grim Portent]

Worth pointing out, Martin is the only one they knew qualified. That doesnt mean he was the only Dragonborn at the time, just the only one we could find. Its not like the others were going around eating dragons to identify themselves.

Well no, but it's not like his dad ate dragons either. By that point in time the qualifications were 'is part of the Septim dynasty.'

By that criteria a cousin ten times removed would be fine so long as they *shared a common ancestor with Uriel and weren't so far removed that no one would accept them politically (no good crowning a new emperor who gets assassinated immediately after all.)

EDIT: *Share Tiber Septim's family as common ancestors.

[Triaxx]

I mean the Amulet meant we had a pretty simple litmus test. Does it pop off? Then boom emperor material.

[Resileaf]

Mankar Camoran could put on the amulet himself too, right? I feel like I recall him having it on when he goes to Dagon's realm.

[Lurkmoar]

Mankar Camoran could put on the amulet himself too, right? I feel like I recall him having it on when he goes to Dagon's realm.

IIRC, in one of Mankar's Commentaries, he writes of breathing fire...

If he was Dragonborn, wearing the Amulet would have been easy peasy.

[InvisibleBison]

IIRC, in one of Mankar's Commentaries, he writes of breathing fire...

Yes, the passage is in Book One of the Commentaries: "When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire." From the surrounding text, I think what he's saying is that he became dragonborn during a Dragon Break, but it's not at all clear.

[Fyraltari]

The Thalmor don't even trust each other as far as they can throw each other.

There's hints at class resentment between the robes and the soldiers during the embassy quest.

Considering the Third Aldmeri Dominion is based on the Third German Reich, it's indeed likely the leadership is constantly backstabbing one another.

I'm not sure the base grunts are actual members of the Thalmor though, I guess it depends how elitist they are in their recruitment process.

In the traditionnal Altmeri caste system outlines by the Pocket Guide, Warriors are right in the middle, below Wises, Artists and Princes but above Landowners, Merchants, Workers and "Beasts" (goblins and assorted slaves from "uncivilized" species).

In Cyrodiil for Mankar's main cult yeah, I doubt coded instructions specific to the capital city would be relevant to an aspiring member in Skyrim or Elsweyr, and IIRC it's stated the cult was in every province. Either they were shipping agents out en masse over the years without being noticed or they had more ways of recruitment than the one that leads the Hero of Kvatch to Mankar.

Yeah, the numbers of the Mythic Dawn are really odd for how difficult the recruitment process we see is.

Trying to figure out an internally consistent set of rules for the Dragonfires has always seemed a bit of a dead end to me. Tied to the bloodline of Alessia via the covenant of Akatosh, who lived so long ago that basically every Imperial should qualify, then tied to the Septim bloodline which is from Skyrim originally as I recall, has no clear relation to Alessia and is quite widespread, BUUUT only Uriel Septim's kids were candidates during the Oblivion crisis because reasons.

The way this all works is meant to be a mystery in-universe too. One text calls it "ineffable" which basically means "I give up trying to make sense". There's also some evidence that the Emperors only truly get the dragonblood once they lit the dragonfires.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Alessia is only known to have had one child, the first minotaur, meaning that no Imperial (or human) is descended from her.

Some in-universe historians also point out that it was Reman who started to use the Ritual of lighting the dragonfires as a way to legitimize rule. Most of the few texts describing Alessia's times can only be dated as far back as Reman's time as well (although they seem based on earlier material) and the history of the First Empire is extremely spotty. Doesn't help that most of it happened in a Dragon-Break. Hell, I have seen peopme theorize that the "First Empire" is an ahistorical fabrication, lumping together the various states that ruled the Imperial City over most of the First Era, to seeve Reman's propaganda. Not sure that I buy ot though.

Tiber Septim was from the kingdom of Alcair in High-Rock, not Skyrim, although the name "Hajlti Early-Beard" sounds very Nordic and Imperial propaganda always emphasized the links between him and Skyrim, probably because the Province provides a big part of Imperial military. For what it's worth C0DA (which may not even consider itself cannon) has Kyne refer to Talos as a "manmer", a Breton.

I just chalk it up to Akatosh being somewhat poetic or metaphorical when describing the purpose of the Amulet of Kings, which has then been misinterpreted or deliberately lied about by people since. A lack of reliable narrators is a thing in the Elder Scrolls franchise after all. The amulet, worn by someone destined to sit on the Imperial throne, can be used to light the dragonfires. Bloodline is not strictly relevant except in that most of the people who are supposed to be Emperor are going to be related to previous emperors, the actually important part is the implicit promise made to and by the Nine with the humans of Cyrodiil.

That would make sense, and indeed the only time we know of that the ritual failed is in ESO when it was sabotaged by Mannimarco. Except that the Amulet refuses to let the Hero of Kvatch wear it, meaning that not everyone qualifies.

At the time of the Oblivion crisis Martin was the only one who could become emperor because of all the relatives of Uriel he was the only one who could or would sacrifice himself in the final moment. Destiny turning on two people and all that jazz.

How would Jauffre and Ocato know that ahead of time, though?

Worth pointing out, Martin is the only one they knew qualified. That doesnt mean he was the only Dragonborn at the time, just the only one we could find. Its not like the others were going around eating dragons to identify themselves.

But if they knew he qualified based on his ancestry (which seems to be all they had to go on until we retrieve the Amulet from Paradise) what made them rule out all the others? Obsessively keeping track of genealogy is what nobility does.

Yes, the passage is in Book One of the Commentaries: "When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire." From the surrounding text, I think what he's saying is that he became dragonborn during a Dragon Break, but it's not at all clear.

Mankar Camoran is another can of worm entirely of his own. Some people, namely the folks at Fudgemuppet, interprest the book as meaning he used Mehrune's Razor to carve his own past, retroactively making himself a dragonborn and possibly an Altmer (or even an Ayleid) since he is one in-game even though both his parents are Bosmer.

Then again, Tiber Septim's niece, Kyntira I was queen of Silvenar in Valenwood before becoming Empress, who knows if there aren't some illegitimate Septims lurking in the Camoran family tree? After all, in Daggerfall, the Totem of Tiber Septim itself claims that only one of Tiber's line may control the Numidium, and Gortwog, an Orc, is able to do it.

Edit: so all in all, it just seems that the Covenant of Akatosh and Tiber Septim's bloodline (or lack thereof) has been retconned with each new game.

[Spore]

I'm guessing it's related to fantasy fiction's weird obsession with "rightful kings" (and the return there of) and how said king is rarely "Bob, the former king's third cousin's nephew".

I mean in my books Martin is such a "Bob" and it works since he is the chosen one (tm). But with Skyrim and Morrowind's protagonists being chosen, and Oblivion we are escorting the chosen one, I would love for TES 6 to be just a very determined prisoner who the heroes picked up along the way. Like: "Look at that skilled handsome fellah in that cell, let's push the upcoming crisis onto them!" and then you are basically blackmailed into being the servant.

Jauffre is the one that calls Martin an illegitimate son.

With Oblivion's release coinciding with reruns of reruns of the Fresh Prince (heh) of Bel Air in TV and Jeoffrey....I mean the butler person negging Marting, I always attributed this to some slight joking about his status as "nonofficial" heir. If you are not told as a servant WHY Martin is hidden, you will eventually start filling out blanks yourself.

He's closely related enough to retain the gift of prophecy, if only to see his own death.

See, fate in video games is a boring thing. You usually see fakeouts or false interpretations, but ultimatively it is a "plot preview" of sorts. I wish more games did the "Soul Reaver" thing, where fate and prophecy was an incredibly strong thing (possibly perpetuated by an ancient parasitic older god feasting on the souls of those deceased in conflict) that couldn't be budged even by time travel bull manure. But something the characters still tried to rebel against. One as a servant of fate, bound but unwilling, one as a rebel outside of the grasp of fate, who was manipulated at every turn.

This could work for Elder Scrolls. You have the servant of fate (say an aspect of Akatosh) bound to knowingly repeat an endless cycle of mistakes, while you are outside of fate (maybe you escaped a soul stone once, and are "off the radar" since you aligned yourself with the Perfect Masters) trying to break the cycle.

I mean the Amulet meant we had a pretty simple litmus test. Does it pop off? Then boom emperor material.

Yes, the passage is in Book One of the Commentaries: "When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire." From the surrounding text, I think what he's saying is that he became dragonborn during a Dragon Break, but it's not at all clear.

From a writer's perspective, was "being a dragonborn" with a primal language translating into magic already a thing in Oblivion? We can retroactively interpret this as a dragonborn, yes. But the Elder Scrolls themselves hint at a very powerful cryptic language powerful enough to blind mortals and imbue epic magic without even touching the matter of a dragonborn. Of course the motive of "speaking fire" and "another language" heavily hint at a dragonborn.

[Caelestion]

Uriel is not by any means "an early king". And the cousins (eg.Titus Mede) cannot keep the Dragonfire lit.

I meant elderly. Autocorrect assassinated my post, just like Uriel VII.

[Batcathat]

I mean in my books Martin is such a "Bob" and it works since he is the chosen one (tm). But with Skyrim and Morrowind's protagonists being chosen, and Oblivion we are escorting the chosen one, I would love for TES 6 to be just a very determined prisoner who the heroes picked up along the way. Like: "Look at that skilled handsome fellah in that cell, let's push the upcoming crisis onto them!" and then you are basically blackmailed into being the servant.

I would love that, since the idea of a Chosen One is probably one of my least favorite concepts and fantasy is absolutely littered with 'em. It certainly can be used well and in interesting ways, but most of the time it does absolutely nothing aside from making the protagonist a little more Special. (It's rather similar to the ever present elves and dwarves in fantasy, both in the sense of "Why does every goddamn fantasy writer keep using this?" and my annoyance with them).

[Spore]

(It's rather similar to the ever present elves and dwarves in fantasy, both in the sense of "Why does every goddamn fantasy writer keep using this?" and my annoyance with them).

I disagree here. Elves and dwarves are cool, but they - like any nonhuman race - MUST BE USED IN THE STORY! They need their lore, which is different from "humans with weird ears" and "underground humans beards".

Good examples include Divinity's meat eating psychic elves, Elder Scrolls' dwemer.

Bad examples are Dragon Age's dwarves which are just conservative xenophobes that happen to live underground and their elves which are loving trees, because they love them so much. Even Final Fantasy is guilty of this, where dwarves and elves are typically just "this is the mountaineer race" and "this is the wood dwelling wizard race" but several titles have notable exceptions.

If you are the chosen one, the story must at least revolve around that premise, like Baldur's Gate, where your heritage is THE central plot point.

[Batcathat]

I disagree here. Elves and dwarves are cool, but they - like any nonhuman race - MUST BE USED IN THE STORY! They need their lore, which is different from "humans with weird ears" and "underground humans beards".

Sure, they can be cool. But I've already read about a thousand stories with cool elves and dwarves (and about a billion with less cool ones) so why not use some other species for a change? It's not like two out of three sci-fi stories have klingons and wookies.

Bad examples are Dragon Age's dwarves which are just conservative xenophobes that happen to live underground and their elves which are loving trees, because they love them so much. Even Final Fantasy is guilty of this, where dwarves and elves are typically just "this is the mountaineer race" and "this is the wood dwelling wizard race" but several titles have notable exceptions.

I kind of like Dragon Age's dwarves, at least they have an identity beyond "we have beards and axes" and the creators subvert the usual dwarf tropes with characters like Varric.

If you are the chosen one, the story must at least revolve around that premise, like Baldur's Gate, where your heritage is THE central plot point.

Sure, that's...better, I guess. I do prefer plots without prophecies though.

(On a side note, I'm sorry for how off topic I've seen to have taken the thread. )

[GloatingSwine]

Good examples include Divinity's meat eating psychic elves, Elder Scrolls' dwemer.

To be fair, Altmer are the only boring elves in Elder Scrolls. And that's because 99% of their personality is "smug racist".

That said, the wilder lore of the various races apart from the Dunmer doesn't make it into the mainline games which pretty much keep it vanilla*. ESO is the only one that goes into any of the others and lets all the wild and wacky aspects of them into the game.

*Bethesda largely lost interest in worldbuilding over the 2000s and quest design over the 2010s. See: Fallout 4.

[Grim Portent]

Considering the Third Aldmeri Dominion is based on the Third German Reich, it's indeed likely the leadership is constantly backstabbing one another.

I'm not sure the base grunts are actual members of the Thalmor though, I guess it depends how elitist they are in their recruitment process.

I think of Thalmor as the same name being used for multiple things, which has real world precedence.

It's a political party, an international organisation of spies attached to that political party who also serve as secret police, a military division and an ideology, and a collective pejorative used by their enemies to refer to them and all their allies and assets. I'd draw direct comparisons to the Third Reich butI think it would fall afoul of forum rules, I trust that the parralels are obvious enough.

I imagine the majority of Thalmor actors in the lead up to the Great War were non-Altmeri assets. Bosmer and Khaajit quislings, and various people in the empire willing to side with the enemy for money, out of fear or because of misguided ideology.* They would all have ultimately reported to the Thalmor leadership, likely operating out of embassies in a clandestine manner similar to how they act in Skyrim. To describe these assets as Thalmor is not necessarily innacurate, we would usually refer to spies in the real world by whatever country they are spying for regardless of where they come from or if they are open supporters of their benefactor.

Being a formal member of the Thalmor is probably a requirement for any sort of important job in the Dominion, with a lot of 'in name' only Thalmor filling up low level administrative or law enforcement positions. Ideologically compatible people then get shuffled up the ladder, but the top is restricted to a very small number of really weird people who wouldn't logically work together under other circumstances. Bosmer might be allowed to be members, it depends on how close the parralels to real life history are supposed to be.


*Such as the An-Xileel. As I recall the Thalmor stirred up anti-Imperial sentiments in Black Marsh, not that it would have needed much stirring, but then couldn't exert any influence on them afterwards. Similar story with the Stormcloaks, fill a guy with so much guilt and loss that he blames himself for losing the War, fan that self hatred into a desire for redemption and let him loose to see what chaos he causes.




One of the things about prophecy in the Elder Scrolls is that they often start out really broad. The initial description of the Nerevarine boils down to 'was born in the Empire and isn't from Vvardenfell.' I think it's even stated that even the failed Nerevarine's might have been genuine 'reincarnations'* that just failed to finish the prophecy for various reasons. There's a strong element of 'it could just be a coincidence' in prophecy, and more than a few sceptics in universe who think they're bunk.

So far prophecy tends to be correct in a eucatastrophic sense rather than catastrophic. There's always someone who's in the right place at the right time to pull things out of the fire, but that person could have been anyone, and some of those anyones would have failed, in some timelines they might well have failed. There are steps to this, a waltz has to be done a certain way, but the dancer's spot was open and anyone could have stepped into it, we just happen to be the person who did and it's bloody hard to draw a line between 'chosen by fate' and 'dumb luck,' and I think the existence of two gods of time shenanigans muddy the waters further.

*'Nerevar reborn' seems to me to be more metaphorical than literal. It's not about his spirit literally returning from Aetherius in a new body to fulfill prophecy, and more about someone who can fill his shoes coming in to fix what is broken. A figurative Nerevar rather than the actual Nerevar.

[Rynjin]

*'Nerevar reborn' seems to me to be more metaphorical than literal. It's not about his spirit literally returning from Aetherius in a new body to fulfill prophecy, and more about someone who can fill his shoes coming in to fix what is broken. A figurative Nerevar rather than the actual Nerevar.

Behold, mantling.

[Keltest]

Yes, the passage is in Book One of the Commentaries: "When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire." From the surrounding text, I think what he's saying is that he became dragonborn during a Dragon Break, but it's not at all clear.

Even if he did, to actually breathe fire from it he would need to spend however many years meditating on the meaning of fire, which he could do without being a dragonborn, or eat a dragon to gain its understanding.

[Grim Portent]

'Speak fire' is extremely vague and could be interpreted as any of a number of things. My mind immediately leaps to things like 'fiery rhetoric' rather than magic.

Roaring I wandered until I grew hoarse with the gospel. I had read the mysteries of Lord Dagon and feeling anew went mad with the overflow. My words found no purchase until I became hidden. These were not words for the common of Tamriel, whose clergy long ago feigned the very existence of the Dawn. Learn from my mistake; know that humility was Mankar Camoran's original wisdom. Come slow, and bring four keys.

Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire.

Red-drink, razor-fed, I had glimpsed the path unto the garden, and knew that to inform others of its harbor I had to first drown myself in search's sea. Know ye that I have found my fleet, and that you are the flagship of my hope. Greetings, novitiate, Mankar Camoran was once you, asleep, unwise, protonymic, but Am No More. Now I sit and wait to feast with thee on all the worlds of this cosmos. Nu-mantia! Liberty!

In context with the surrounding text it seems more reasonable to me that it describes Mankar becoming a great prophet after failing as a preacher. He read the Mysterium Xarxes but failed to really understand it, wandering around as an itinerant preacher and failing to gather a following. In despair at this failure he submitted himself to Dagon more fully, in humility rather than pride, achieving true understanding and was reborn as his prophet, his voice on Tamriel.

[Rynjin]

'Speak fire' is extremely vague and could be interpreted as any of a number of things. My mind immediately leaps to things like 'fiery rhetoric' rather than magic.

All that meditation really improved the quality of Mankar Camoran's next mixtape.

[Eldan]

I took it as a Biblical reference.

[Grim Portent]

All that meditation really improved the quality of Mankar Camoran's next mixtape.

Young Scrolls needs to get on a Mankar Camoran equivalent of Dagothwave. Not sure he has enough voice lines for it, but I want it by Dagon!

[Rynjin]

Young Scrolls needs to get on a Mankar Camoran equivalent of Dagothwave. Not sure he has enough voice lines for it, but I want it by Dagon!

Next LP is about to be Mankar Camoran - Profit for sure.

[Lurkmoar]

Stepping away from the lore aspects, I'm wondering:

What's everyone's limit when it comes to exploits? Phasing through walls with wooden bowls, flying on the Solitude stables bucket, using Pickpocket chicanery to hang on to the Jagged Crown, wearing Falmer Helmets + Circlets or Dragon Priest Masks, quicksaving punching shop keepers until they turn aggressive and reloading to refresh their stock kind of thing.

I draw the line at the duplicating glitch, selling Merchants their own stock and Fortify Restoration enchanting. Those three just feel like straight abuse.

[Triaxx]

I never knew about any of those. Except the Fortify loop.