The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[LibraryOgre]

I miss being able to approach doors in multiple ways. Fallout 2 made it more or less mandatory that you blow up a door to get through, I think mostly to show you that you could blow up doors. Fallout 3 would make you pick the lock on a door with a clearly broken window next to the handle.

[Rynjin]

I miss being able to approach doors in multiple ways. Fallout 2 made it more or less mandatory that you blow up a door to get through, I think mostly to show you that you could blow up doors. Fallout 3 would make you pick the lock on a door with a clearly broken window next to the handle.

It would be neat if you could do stuff like this, maybe with drawbacks. Bust a window to get in? Great; take some damage and start bleeding, or cripple your hand, or something, but you're inside. That kinda stuff. Maybe make it like a Constitution check, and if you're tough enough you can skip the damage, but if your stat is low you can still do it, just eat the drawback. Etc.

[Fyraltari]

Original Deus Ex had one of my favorite uses of jump ever. In Hong Kong there's a point where you're ambushed in your apartment. If it's your second playthrough or you'd been spoiled you knew it was coming. My response was to break into the building across the street, climb up to the balcony, stack some chairs and then leap across the street through a blasted out window and ambush the ambushers.

Wish more games let me do that.

This type of game/game design philosophy is called "immersive sim" if you don't know, spearheaded by Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock. It's a bit of niche genre that went through a rough time and may be makig something of a comeback (not to th epoit of being mainstream though).

I recommend looking up games by Arkane Studios for modern immersive sims.

[Lurkmoar]

Tin Foil hat time:

The Crimes of Jarl Balgruuf?

Ruler of Whiterun. Sitting under a dragon's skull. Stuck in the middle of the Civil War. Brother. Father of three. But where is his wife?

Spoiler

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Seriously, I've never found a reference to her anywhere. Perhaps she passed from natural causes, disease or even childbirth. Even with magicka, life is still precious in the Elder Scrolls. But the Daedric quest "The Whispering Door" throws a shadow.

Nelkir, one of Balgruuf's children, is extremely troubled. He threatens violence against his father and lets slip that his father... isn't his father. According to notes in the creation kit... he's listed as Balgruuf's brother. Nelkir will point the player towards an unused door, where the Whispering Door is actually Mephala. From there, it's a matter of lifting the key, opening the door and claiming the Ebony Blade. Quest complete. There's a journal there warning about taking the Daedric artifact though.

Spoiler: Admontion Against Ebony

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To anyone reading this: BEWARE THIS BLADE

It is hoped that the only people having access to this room should be the Jarl of Whiterun and his trusted wizard. If anyone else is reading this, please understand the magnitude of your folly, turn around, and never even speak of this room or this blade to anyone.

It has corrupted and perverted the desires of great men and women. Yet its power is without equal -- to kill while your victim smiles at you. Only a daedra most foul could have concocted such a malevolent and twisted weapon. But it appears that all who wield it end up with the crazed eyes of those wild men who roam the hills chattering with rabbits.

It is not to be trifled with. Not even the hottest fires of the Skyforge could melt it; indeed the coals themselves seemed to cool when it was placed within. We cannot destroy it, and we would not have it fall into the hands of our enemies. So we keep it, hidden, dark and deep within Dragonsreach, never to be used.

Woe be to any who choose to take it.

There have been theories before that I've seen that Balgruuf murdered his wife. I propose that he murdered his father.

Balgruuf's age isn't listed anywhere I could find. If I were to hazard a guess, late 40s to early 50s. His father could still be in the picture. Even with how rough Skyrim is, there are plenty of elderly citizens, both men and mer. My hypothesis is that Balgruuf's father had an affair with Balgruuf's then wife. Somehow, the Ebony Blade was at the heart of it. Father died. Did Balgruuf or the wife do it? If the wife didn't die, was she exiled? I'm stumped here, there's not a whole lot of clues to go on. Even the father bit is pure conjuncture on my part. Still, that would at least explain why Nelkir is listed as a brother and how he's not Balgruuf's son... but brother.

There was originally going to be a follow up for the The Whispering Door quest where Balgruuf's three children would murder their father. It's why Hrongar has unused dialogue files for the Civil War, as he would take over duties of Jarl in Whiterun after Balgruuf's death.

Just some scrambled thoughts I had this afternoon.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Tin Foil hat time:

The Crimes of Jarl Balgruuf?

Ruler of Whiterun. Sitting under a dragon's skull. Stuck in the middle of the Civil War. Brother. Father of three. But where is his wife?

Spoiler

Show

Seriously, I've never found a reference to her anywhere. Perhaps she passed from natural causes, disease or even childbirth. Even with magicka, life is still precious in the Elder Scrolls. But the Daedric quest "The Whispering Door" throws a shadow.

Nelkir, one of Balgruuf's children, is extremely troubled. He threatens violence against his father and lets slip that his father... isn't his father. According to notes in the creation kit... he's listed as Balgruuf's brother. Nelkir will point the player towards an unused door, where the Whispering Door is actually Mephala. From there, it's a matter of lifting the key, opening the door and claiming the Ebony Blade. Quest complete. There's a journal there warning about taking the Daedric artifact though.

Spoiler: Admontion Against Ebony

Show

To anyone reading this: BEWARE THIS BLADE

It is hoped that the only people having access to this room should be the Jarl of Whiterun and his trusted wizard. If anyone else is reading this, please understand the magnitude of your folly, turn around, and never even speak of this room or this blade to anyone.

It has corrupted and perverted the desires of great men and women. Yet its power is without equal -- to kill while your victim smiles at you. Only a daedra most foul could have concocted such a malevolent and twisted weapon. But it appears that all who wield it end up with the crazed eyes of those wild men who roam the hills chattering with rabbits.

It is not to be trifled with. Not even the hottest fires of the Skyforge could melt it; indeed the coals themselves seemed to cool when it was placed within. We cannot destroy it, and we would not have it fall into the hands of our enemies. So we keep it, hidden, dark and deep within Dragonsreach, never to be used.

Woe be to any who choose to take it.

There have been theories before that I've seen that Balgruuf murdered his wife. I propose that he murdered his father.

Balgruuf's age isn't listed anywhere I could find. If I were to hazard a guess, late 40s to early 50s. His father could still be in the picture. Even with how rough Skyrim is, there are plenty of elderly citizens, both men and mer. My hypothesis is that Balgruuf's father had an affair with Balgruuf's then wife. Somehow, the Ebony Blade was at the heart of it. Father died. Did Balgruuf or the wife do it? If the wife didn't die, was she exiled? I'm stumped here, there's not a whole lot of clues to go on. Even the father bit is pure conjuncture on my part. Still, that would at least explain why Nelkir is listed as a brother and how he's not Balgruuf's son... but brother.

There was originally going to be a follow up for the The Whispering Door quest where Balgruuf's three children would murder their father. It's why Hrongar has unused dialogue files for the Civil War, as he would take over duties of Jarl in Whiterun after Balgruuf's death.

Just some scrambled thoughts I had this afternoon.

I was unaware of the Creation Kit reference, but my impression from the in-game dialog was just that

Spoiler

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Nelkir was born as a result of the Jarl having an affair. His exact words are “That he... that I'm... that I don't have the same mother as my brother and sister."

[Lurkmoar]

I was unaware of the Creation Kit reference, but my impression from the in-game dialog was just that

Spoiler

Show

Nelkir was born as a result of the Jarl having an affair. His exact words are “That he... that I'm... that I don't have the same mother as my brother and sister."

I can't believe I forgot that bit. That torpedoes that angle!

[Vinyadan]

Skyrim really had a thing for foul murder. Sacrifice your follower! Kill your friends! Eat the priest!

[Lurkmoar]

Skyrim really had a thing for foul murder. Sacrifice your follower! Kill your friends! Eat the priest!

Boethiah had a cut quest where s/he demanded you murder Elisif.

Yup, lots o' murder.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Skyrim really had a thing for foul murder. Sacrifice your follower! Kill your friends! Eat the priest!

Oblivion did too, recall. Antagonize the paladin until he beats you to death…kill and soul trap a member of every race…murder all the people locked in a house with you…

[Aeson]

murder all the people locked in a house with you…

To be fair, that one's part of the happy-go-lucky murder cult's questline; if you weren't expecting to murder people when you went questing for the Dark Brotherhood, I don't know what to tell you.

[Resileaf]

Murdering someone for a Daedric Prince is basically the default. It's surprising when murder is not the intent.

[veti]

Murdering someone for a Daedric Prince is basically the default. It's surprising when murder is not the intent.

The only Prince in Skyrim who doesn't want you to murder anyone is Sheogorath. The others differ only in whether or not the victim has done anything to deserve it.

[GloatingSwine]

I would say second worst after Summerset, but yes it is terrible.

Spoiler

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I would also say it’s just the Oblivion Crisis - down to and including gathering allies to protect Bruma Fort Redmane and Dagon showing up at the end - but I will note I consider the Planemeld to be an Oblivion Crisis knockoff too, so that’s just me splitting hairs.

I could have lived with that if that were the only flaw, but we’ve also got a preponderance of people from previous DLCs. Don’t get me wrong, I like seeing NPCs come back now and again, but it should be like icing - a nice little extra if I’ve played the rest of the game and not a replacement for solid content. Blackwood is nothing but a tub of icing by itself, there needs to be some cake too! And some of them are a bit contrived as to why they’re in this backwater swampland.

And then on top of that it’s got things like being required to blurt out to Eveli that I’m a Dark Brotherhood assassin (to be clear, I’m fine with her finding out, but it would have been a lot more natural for it to come up when we talked to Elam…), merrily traipsing off to the Deadlands with the people Mehrunes Dagon is specifically after into, surprise surprise, a trap, and going along with whatever other stupid plan of the day because the plot needs me to.

Dialog is frequently clunky too. ‘Mercenary’ this and ‘Eveli’s friend’ that - who talks like this?! I know they can’t exactly program the PC’s name into voiced dialogue, but there are better ways to write around it!

In short I’m really glad I got this on sale.

Fortunately, I have Fargrave after this for a palette cleanser.

Summerset was the weakest part of the Daedric War plotline because Vvardenfell was absolutely stuffed with content and Clockwork City is inherently interesting, and obviously it's full of Altmer and therefore disgusting by default, but the main plot there was okay, had some good spectacle in the finale, and it had a decent amount of side content like the house of revels and the murder mystery.

Blackwood is just content sparse. There's nothing good to do there.

The best of the year-long chapters is Elsweyr. Cool zones, they go mad with all the different kinds of Khajiit that never usually get to actually show up, Za'ji and Caska are super fun, and zerging down dragons is the best world event.

The only Prince in Skyrim who doesn't want you to murder anyone is Sheogorath. The others differ only in whether or not the victim has done anything to deserve it.

Depends what you mean by murder.

Sanguine, Hircine, Malacath, and Clavicus Vile don't want you to kill anyone in particular and Hermaeus Mora's quest requires blood but it can come from people who attack you for other reasons (mostly existing).

[Vinyadan]

Oblivion did too, recall. Antagonize the paladin until he beats you to death…kill and soul trap a member of every race…murder all the people locked in a house with you…

Oblivion though felt very different. In part, it's possibly because it looked so cartoonish, it occasionally felt like Tarhiel: The Game. But the Molag Bal quest is a good example. In Oblivion, it's "go piss off a paladin until he finally has had enough and kills you". In Skyrim, it's "Help this guy clear a dangerous place, BTW now you have to kill him, then lure this other nasty guy into a cage, torture him until he changes his religion, then kill him." It's like the cruelty was the point. There also was no test of skill like in the Dark Brotherhood quests, as those rewarded you for managing to do things in a certain way and so were the setting for actual gameplay.

The thing is, those were quite a few missions in Skyrim, and the game considered it a failure not to go through with it (except Mehrunes Dagon, I think the mission didn't count as failed if you spared Silus).

[GloatingSwine]

Oblivion though felt very different. In part, it's possibly because it looked so cartoonish, it occasionally felt like Tarhiel: The Game. But the Molag Bal quest is a good example. In Oblivion, it's "go piss off a paladin until he finally has had enough and kills you". In Skyrim, it's "Help this guy clear a dangerous place, BTW now you have to kill him, then lure this other nasty guy into a cage, torture him until he changes his religion, then kill him." It's like the cruelty was the point. There also was no test of skill like in the Dark Brotherhood quests, as those rewarded you for managing to do things in a certain way and so were the setting for actual gameplay.

The thing is, those were quite a few missions in Skyrim, and the game considered it a failure not to go through with it (except Mehrunes Dagon, I think the mission didn't count as failed if you spared Silus).

I mean yeah, it's Molag Bal. The god of schemes, domination, and the enslavement of mortals. The one they call the King of Rape (which, coincidentally, is how he made vampires).

The cruelty is the point in his quest because that's what he's about.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Summerset was the weakest part of the Daedric War plotline because Vvardenfell was absolutely stuffed with content and Clockwork City is inherently interesting, and obviously it's full of Altmer and therefore disgusting by default, but the main plot there was okay, had some good spectacle in the finale, and it had a decent amount of side content like the house of revels and the murder mystery.

Summerset made the Psijic Order into idiots, and the combined added lore for Phynaster, Syrabane, the stars, and the Altmer obsession with numbers were, respectively: one daily quest, a song, nothing, and a single note in a point of interest. The entire island is essentially one biome, with one (generic, human-looking) architectural style. And they used up the entire rest of Summerset to make the zone, so unless they pull a High Isle like they did with the Bretons, there is no good place to add more to all the stuff they left out. The Psijic skill line quest is boring and repetitive, and cemented that the Psijic Order are idiots instead of keeping it limited to let’s-go-make-a-pact-with-Daedric-Princes-what-could-go-wrong Ritemaster Iachesis and his immediate circle. Nocturnal’s design was bland and, worse, horribly pixelated. (A major choice in Vvardenfell also has a high chance of being retconned depending on what you chose, rendering it even more meaningless than usual.) The zone itself is tiny. We simultaneously have people complaining about all these newcomers while admitting that there were newcomers here the entire time.

Summerset was terrible. They had years to build up to it and they dropped the ball HARD. Blackwood, at least, didn’t retroactively ruin everything that came before it.

The best of the year-long chapters is Elsweyr. Cool zones, they go mad with all the different kinds of Khajiit that never usually get to actually show up, Za'ji and Caska are super fun, and zerging down dragons is the best world event.

I thought it was middling, but I was too busy being irritated that they dragged in Dragons as yet another Skyrim callback instead of doing something unique to the Khajiit, but I was happy to see the cute little Alfiq at last.

[Vinyadan]

To tell the truth, Molag Bal's quest was mostly badly written, in many ways. The game that gives you many options to solve the same problem now decides you have to kill Tiranus, for example. Incidentally, the Vigilants of Stendarr also aren't really well-written (they almost aren't written at all, for what I remember of the main game). The quest's logic also turns on itself: Molag Bal can lock you inside, but won't lock the priest inside. He can move items, but won't just magically whack the priest on his head with the mace. The smart solution to this riddle is that this is Oblivion's quest all over again, except it is the Dragonborn's soul that is being angled at, and the priest is just an extra playing the role that had been of the Hero of Kvatch. It's a fascinating theory, but I doubt it (many quests request you engange in gratuitous cruelty to be completed).

My point overall is that Skyrim is a game, and the game supposedly isn't Cruelty Simulator. So did the quest engage me with an interesting narrative? Nope, it was about a cardboard Vigilant and dreary people I couldn't care less about. Did it offer interesting gameplay? Not really, it actually locked you out of options without creating a challenge through limitations. It was only notable for how displeasant it was, and didn't even say anything new about Molag Bal. To make a comparison, I liked the one with Hermaeus Mora a lot more: at least, it was surprising, and connected to much other lore.

[Lurkmoar]

At least there was movement and effort (as poorly done as it was) with House of Horrors.

Mephala's quest, you talk to a kid, knick a key and open a door.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

To tell the truth, Molag Bal's quest was mostly badly written, in many ways. The game that gives you many options to solve the same problem now decides you have to kill Tiranus, for example. Incidentally, the Vigilants of Stendarr also aren't really well-written (they almost aren't written at all, for what I remember of the main game). The quest's logic also turns on itself: Molag Bal can lock you inside, but won't lock the priest inside. He can move items, but won't just magically whack the priest on his head with the mace. The smart solution to this riddle is that this is Oblivion's quest all over again, except it is the Dragonborn's soul that is being angled at, and the priest is just an extra playing the role that had been of the Hero of Kvatch. It's a fascinating theory, but I doubt it (many quests request you engange in gratuitous cruelty to be completed).

My point overall is that Skyrim is a game, and the game supposedly isn't Cruelty Simulator. So did the quest engage me with an interesting narrative? Nope, it was about a cardboard Vigilant and dreary people I couldn't care less about. Did it offer interesting gameplay? Not really, it actually locked you out of options without creating a challenge through limitations. It was only notable for how displeasant it was, and didn't even say anything new about Molag Bal. To make a comparison, I liked the one with Hermaeus Mora a lot more: at least, it was surprising, and connected to much other lore.

Excellent points here.

I was also disappointed in the lack of presence the Vigilants had. You’d think with them being an organization of do-gooders the player would have at least been allowed to join them. They have a headquarters already! (At least until level 10, I think.) There’s plenty of possibility there: root out Daedra worshippers inside the order, help people afflicted with plague or wounded in a Dragon attack, clear out doomsday cults…but no, they occasionally show up as a random encounter, and some of their people get cameos wherein they get steamrolled by vampires in the Dawnguard questline. And there’s the guy in the Molag Bal quest as you mentioned. And I think that’s it?

[Keltest]

I think the vigilants are written to be kind of a disaster on purpose. Nobody seems to take them seriously except themselves, they have no major purpose in the game except as a random encounter, and they get demolished, constantly, by all the fights they pick. This isnt a government funded group or a guild that only (nominally) accepts the most elite of the elite, theyre just a bunch of randos who decide that daedra are bad and go around picking fights about it. It makes a certain amount of sense, after all. Not every organization in the game is competent enough to actually achieve any of their goals. We see a glimpse of a couple other groups like that in the College questline, and the Silver Hand of course are basically bandits that also fight werewolves.

[Rater202]

Not gonna lie, th eVigelents of Stendar rubbed me the wrong way.

Not every Deadra worshiper is evil and some of the Deadra could even be considered benevolent. Likewise, not every vampire or werewolf is a murderer or even dangerous on their own. In fact, one could argue that most vampires and werewolves are objectively victims.

And worshipers of the God of Mercy being the ones hunting down and killing such beings or people...

Sanguine, Hircine, Malacath, and Clavicus Vile don't want you to kill anyone in particular and Hermaeus Mora's quest requires blood but it can come from people who attack you for other reasons (mostly existing).

Hircine wants you to kill the werewolf, and only backs off if you kill all the other hunters he sent to kill the Werewolf since he finds that amusing.

Clavicus Vile flat-out asks you to murder Barbas.

[Keltest]

And worshipers of the God of Mercy being the ones hunting down and killing such beings or people...

Could be thats why theyre all so ineffectual.

[Rater202]

Could be thats why theyre all so ineffectual.

I was referring more to the hypocrisy, how is hunting down and murdering someone because they worship a different god from you, are suffering from a disease or curse, or are magic user who isn't part a church or college supposed to be merciful?

But yes, that's another aspect of it.

My literal first thoughts when I found the Vigilents was that I was expecting I'd end up having to fight a hole bunch of them. My immediate first thought was "relgious hyprocitrites taking ancient tragedy out of context to justify their hate crimes."

[Grim Portent]

I imagine it's more a matter of them being a bunch of vigilantes and people who weren't cut out to be priests. They aren't exactly the Knights of the Nine, made of champions gathered to the banner of a legendary hero, they're a rag tag bunch of Stendarr worshippers who picked up maces and hammers and decided to have a bash at fighting cults in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis, who have then gone for a long time without any proper threats to fight. I'm not sure if they're even sponsored by the Church of Stendarr or just a bunch of weirdos getting their funds from charity.

Hobbyist monster hunter monks, rather than professional soldiers or heroes.


Stendarr worshippers have a history of intolerance, the quest for Namira in Oblivion involved a bunch of priests of Stendarr forcing light and preaching on a bunch of gollum-esque cultists who lived as vermin in service to Namira.

[Rynjin]

And worshipers of the God of Mercy being the ones hunting down and killing such beings or people...

They don't hunt down people, or at least they're not considered such by Stendarr's teachings. Daedra are pure evil and incapable of good, and lycanthropes, vampires, and undead are also considered "abominations".

I think the primary source for this is ESO these days, but this idea was around before that point as well.

Now, the questionable part (and what makes the Vigilants poor worshipers) is that they not only kill daedra, undead, and lycanthropes...but anyone who allies with them or uses abilities associated with them for any reason. That is where the fanaticism goes beyond the pale.

[Vinyadan]

My impression was that the Vigilants were supposed to be unrelatable zealots, so the player was meant to be happy when they got the stick (so, all the time). However, at least in the main game, I didn't see enough writing to really give them a colour, and I mainly consider them unfinished (there's actually some cut dialogue, in which they would have asked you to randomly give up your daedric artifacts). It's also possible that they were becoming too annoying and were left out to avoid duplicating more appealing meanies like the Thalmor.

With better writing, they might have been a less fortunate version of the Ordinators: visually impressive holy warriors that will fight for you should need arise, active both as a normal police force and against really fearful enemies of the people of Vvardenfell like Dagoth Ur, but also showing that they are repressive and unhinged. This however needs to be grounded in lore, and the Ordinators do not exist in a vacuum, instead being part of the Temple, with a connection to the House system and a bad relationship with the Legion. People say that they are the one who are sent when really bad stuff like vampires show up, showing that the community agrees with at least the protective part of their role, while observing their limits (the unpatrolled wilderness and Daedric shrines, for example).

I don't remember anything of this for the Vigilants in Skyrim. They just happen to be out there. No idea if anyone even ever mentions them.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

And worshipers of the God of Mercy being the ones hunting down and killing such beings or people...

I feel obligated to point out this is perfectly in line with Stendarr in previous games. Remember his Knights of the Nine quest? Cursing an entire family line because their ancestor screwed up once?

[Resileaf]

The gods of the Elder Scrolls verse, Daedric or otherwise, are pretty generally quite awful. You don't have to dig very far in the lore to realize that Tamriel is one hell of a crapsack universe that can sometimes give Warhammer Fantasy a run for its money.

[Fyraltari]

The Vigilantes of Stendarr are cleraly inspired by various withchunting and heretic-burning groups in history. It's not mentionned anywhere in the games but I always assumed they were a knightly order dedicated to Stendarr and backed by his church, like the Knights of the Hour for Akatosh. In Daggerfall, his knightly order was called "The Crusaders", which gives off similar vibes.

But I think they get a bad rep. For one Isran deemed them too weak, which means the Dawnguard is likely supposed to be even more extreme than them. Their belief that all Deadra are evil is the basic doxa of the Imperial Cult, shared by most people who are really into the divines. And while calling them inherently evil is probably a bridge too far, they are right that the Daedra are very dangerous. Martin's backstory is that their shared worship of Sanguine, one of the least hostile Daedra, got a friend of his killed. Meridia and Azura, the dadra most likely to be called good have quite the body count etc. Also, in cut content they requested you turn over any Daedric artifact you possess, but given how those artifacts always seem to be involved in some horrible ****, I can hardly fault them. Like, if a dude is walking atound with Mehrunes' Razor or Molag Bal's Mace, something very wrong is going on.

As for their perceived hypocrisy, Stendarr is the god of mercy true, but he is the patron of the Imperial Legion and his Nordic counterpart, Stuhn, is the God of Ransoming Prisoners. With Shezzar being sidelined, Stendarr was the main warrior god of the Eight, until Talos showed up. A worshipper of Stendarr is just as true to their chosen deity when they give medication to the sick as to when they bash an evildoer's face in. And to most people in Tamriel (excepting Dunmer, Khajiit and Orcs) Daedra worshippers are evil-doers. Like, yeah, maybe this worshipper of Boethiah is just really into self-help but they're just as likely to be the kind to stab you in the face to reaffirm their own existence.

[Grim Portent]

Mercy in the context of Stendarr can also mean ending someone's suffering, as in Oblivion they sought to bring light and salvation even to those who didn't want it. For the more overtly hostile daedra cultists, necromancers and so on who react to missionaries or attempted charity with hostility the only mercy that they can receive is death (in the eyes of the devout of the Nine anyway.)

Stendarr's tenets require that his followers attempt to minister to the needy and defend them from supernatural evils, whether they want it or not.