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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Depends on the thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the results of the Civil War get swept under the rug - either by having ES6 happening concurrently with Skyrim or have some other major disaster overshadow it post-game. (Falmer invasion? Fallout from the Eye of Magnus swallows the whole region? Plague wipes everyone out?)

    But some of the other things - Paarthurnax will probably be dead, because the only way to complete that quest is to kill him. The Emperor will have been assassinated. I suspect the Dark Brotherhood will have survived - even if the ‘join’ branch weren’t a lot more fleshed out, I gather they’re a popular faction and I don’t see Bethesda getting rid of them permanently.
    That's honestly what I was afraid of: I feel like the Civil War's outcome is kind of rendered moot if the Dark Brotherhood's questline is played through to completion. With the death of the Emperor, the whole Empire becomes destabilized, whether Skyrim is part of it or not.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    That's honestly what I was afraid of: I feel like the Civil War's outcome is kind of rendered moot if the Dark Brotherhood's questline is played through to completion. With the death of the Emperor, the whole Empire becomes destabilized, whether Skyrim is part of it or not.
    Not necessarily. I don't think Motierre's plan stopped at killing the Emperor. Most likely he has a successor ready for a smooth transition of power.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Yep, everything the player did for Skyrim one way or the other will turn out to be meaningless. (How else can you reconcile "free choice" with "canonical timeline"?) The Emperor will have died (or vanished), although obviously no-one will blame the Dragonborn for that. My money is on "the Thalmor promptly invaded Skyrim making the outcome of the Civil War moot anyway".

    Except for stopping Alduin/Ancano/Harkon/Miraak. That'll be baked in (because there weren't any real alternate endings for those quests), although obviously there'll be a whole new existential threat now.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Not necessarily. I don't think Motierre's plan stopped at killing the Emperor. Most likely he has a successor ready for a smooth transition of power.
    I thought that intended successor was himself.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I thought that intended successor was himself.
    Why?

    And, let's be clear even if the Dragonborn killing him thwarted the conspiracy he was part of (which I seriously doubt he was the only member, I mean come on, we're not talking about planning a picnic here), Titus Mede very probably has heirs. Like, he's very old and he's expecting to die so the question of his succession must have come up. We're never told he has children, but he had at least one adult cousin so there's a good chance there is at least one relative with a good claim to the throne out there. Probably one Motierre wanted on the throne rather than Mede who he obviously felt was in the way of his political agenda, whatever that is.

    Ultimately the Mede Empire survived two Emperors, I don't think the loss of a third is enough in itself to void the consequences of the civil war. Particularly if the Imperials won.

    Also, I think the Empire being indeed gone by the time of TES: VI could be an interesting direction for the overall story. It's declined quite a lot since Arena, and Talos himself mused in Morrowind that it may have lived its time and it might be better for something else to replace it. Maybe some sort of anti-Dominion coalition of Skyrim, High Rock, Morrowind, Cyrodiil, Argonia and Hammerfell (and Orsinium?). Who knows?
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    He's already on the Elder Council, the only station I could conceivably see being higher than that is Emperor, right?

    The general vibe I got is the Thalmor win no matter which decision is taken: If the Emperor survives but Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes and the Empire is weakened, allowing the Dominion to win Round 2 of the Great War. If the Emperor is assassinated and the Stormcloaks win, the Empire and Skyrim now stand divided and are that much easier for the Dominion to conquer. If the Emperor survives and the Empire wins, the Talos ban goes into full effect, furthering the Thalmor's overarching metaphysical goal of destroying Talos and with him reality. If the Emperor is assassinated but the Empire wins, then the Dominion win on both fronts, conquering the now weakened Empire and Talos' power is weakened with the now fully enforced ban.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Didn't he also have a bunch of the other Elder Council members killed too, making him one of the sole surviving members of the chain of command?

    Even if he didn't become Emperor, he could seed the new Council with people loyal to him, effectively becoming the power behind the throne.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    He's already on the Elder Council, the only station I could conceivably see being higher than that is Emperor, right?
    There are a lot of kings and queens on Tamriel who probably outrank most council members. That's the trick, who don't know the actual make-up of the Council and how much power each member actually wield. There's got to be a lot of variation between the High Chancellor and the average member. Especially since a good deal of them must derive power from their titles, positions and fortunes they have in addition to their seat. Also, I don't think it's ever actually said that Motierre is a member of the Council.

    And again, why do you think he's in this for personal advancement? The man tells you several time that you are doing a great service to the Empire, that the necessary policies will be implemented now. But you're an assassin for hire from a death cult, he doesn't need to bull**** you. Why would he tell you this if he didn't believe it? The man fights for a cause, methinks. Not that it's incompatible with him getting a lot of money and power from it, mind. Also, If he intended to take the throne, his place would be back in the Imperial City to act as fast as possible. I don't think Motierre is the brain behind this operation, I think he's the guy who was trusted enough to organize the assassination but not important enough that they couldn't have their coup with him half a continent away.

    The general vibe I got is the Thalmor win no matter which decision is taken: If the Emperor survives but Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes and the Empire is weakened, allowing the Dominion to win Round 2 of the Great War. If the Emperor is assassinated and the Stormcloaks win, the Empire and Skyrim now stand divided and are that much easier for the Dominion to conquer. If the Emperor survives and the Empire wins, the Talos ban goes into full effect, furthering the Thalmor's overarching metaphysical goal of destroying Talos and with him reality. If the Emperor is assassinated but the Empire wins, then the Dominion win on both fronts, conquering the now weakened Empire and Talos' power is weakened with the now fully enforced ban.
    Thing is, nobody on the Empire actually supports the talos ban, or the Thalmor. Tullius starts planning the Second Great War the moment Ulfric's head hits the ground. Also, the Dominion haven't exactly had a great time since the Great War. They lost a huge part of their military (how big the loss relative to the Empire's isn't clear) and have been booted out of Hammerfell. They are also rather impopular on their own territories (or among their soldiers for that matter). The Empire had to deal with secessionists groups and they are several orders of magnitude more tolerant than the Dominion so it probably gets violent even if it hasn't reisen to Civil War level.

    Speaking of, that's the whole reason they were so happy about the civil war, wasn't it? It kept the humans' focus away from them and weakened them. They wouldn't care about it that much if they were confident they could take on the Third Empire again.

    Besides, say the Stormcloaks win and Skyrim secede. When the Thalmor goes to war against either nation, do you think the other is going to stand back idly? I think they'd take the opportunity to attack the Dominion.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, I don't think it's ever actually said that Motierre is a member of the Council.
    He's got one of their specially-crafted-for-each-member amulets on his person. Beyond that he speaks with authority and has his own bodyguard. And Babette says he's part of "a very old and powerful Breton family, firmly established in Cyrodiil." He admittedly doesn't get addressed as 'Elder Councilor Mortierre' but since he's on a clandestine and very treasonous mission, he wouldn't be.

    I think we can safely assume he's intended to be an Elder Councilor unless and until a later game outright states he's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And again, why do you think he's in this for personal advancement?
    Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Regarding Amaund Montierre... And not directly related to the conversation at hand, I feel its important to note that he shares a Surname with Francois Montierre, a wealthy Breton from Cyrodiil whose death the Hero of Kvatch faked as part of Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline, and Mirrable Motierre, a former noblewoman from Cyrodiil who got bored of her life of luxury, casually murdered her handmaid, and then joined the Dark Brotherhood after being invited in The Elder Scrolls Online.

    The implication very much seems to be that whenever this family runs into trouble they call the Brotherhood becuase one of their ancestors was a member.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    I have a mod that makes the Dark Brotherhood questline have more information about who your killing so that all the targets have done horrible stuff so that it feels more deserving, in that mod Titus Mede II basically sold out his Empire and you kill him before he signs away the whole empire to the Dominion, with the good guy reasoning being that maybe Motierre will be a better ruler.

    but of course the downside of mods is that its so full of CTDs, and now my one of characters just CTDs on load, so now I'm seriously considering just trying to uninstall and reinstall my Skyrim SE then switch to MO2 and try to recreate all my characters. like maybe some things it won't help with, but at least I might be able to see mod conflicts better or easier so I know what to get rid of before I start.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    What does CTD mean in this context?
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    What does CTD mean in this context?
    Crash To Desktop. basically the game closes and your back at the desktop.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    In theory, the following games could just avoid mentioning the matters. The Civil War is just a secondary quest, and, by comparison, we never get told which House the Nerevarine joined (to tell the truth, I am not sure that someone won the war, as there was no king elected; someone above the fray like the guy in Whiterun could get the crown, and I think the fans would like it). Paarthurnax must be unknown to amost anyone in Tamriel, and has spent ages without going anywhere. The Emperor can be killed without the Brotherhood, as we've seen in the past, and the Penitus Oculatus already knew where the Brotherhood was and the password, so the two events don't exclude each other. There may be other such bifurcations, but I don't remember them right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Astrid is great, I dunno what you're talking about. The Brotherhood in Skyrim isn't as delightfully hammy as the one in Oblivion, but at least they try.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."
    I would point out that this appears to be the conclusion that Astrid has drawn from the knowledge that Motierre wants the Emperor dead and the implication that Motierre is somehow connected to the Elder Council. In-universe, she does not seem to have any better information on Motierre's motives than the player character does - quite possibly less, given that the player character actually meets the guy whereas she apparently doesn't even have any idea of who he is.

    Her not knowing who Motierre is even after polling the Dark Brotherhood's contacts, incidentally, makes the idea that Motierre is an agent of an Elder Councilor* rather than being one himself fairly plausible to me. Astrid's in a position where she should probably know, or at the very least be able to find out, who the Elder Councilors are - the Council looks to be something like a Cabinet, not some secret club, and even with the state of Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood they ought to have at least the contacts to find a member list for a major public body like that - and yet it seems that all she and the Dark Brotherhood can discover about this guy is that his family's historically at least somewhat wealthy and influential.

    *Or possibly even the Emperor, if you buy into the theory that Titus Mede II plotted his own assassination to clear the way for a successor with less baggage who might therefore be better positioned to unite the various factions within the Empire and lead it in a new war against the Dominion.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-08-31 at 11:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Her not knowing who Motierre is even after polling the Dark Brotherhood's contacts, incidentally, makes the idea that Motierre is an agent of an Elder Councilor* rather than being one himself fairly plausible to me. Astrid's in a position where she should probably know, or at the very least be able to find out, who the Elder Councilors are - the Council looks to be something like a Cabinet, not some secret club, and even with the state of Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood they ought to have at least the contacts to find a member list for a major public body like that - and yet it seems that all she and the Dark Brotherhood can discover about this guy is that his family's historically at least somewhat wealthy and influential.
    She didn’t even know what the necklace was; I think we can safely assume the who’s who of the Elder Council is beyond her current pool of contacts. Major government body or no, they’re still down in Cyrodiil and her area of operations is Skyrim, and it’s not like she can type ‘Amaund Motierre’ into a search engine and get his wiki page.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    In theory, the following games could just avoid mentioning the matters. The Civil War is just a secondary quest, and, by comparison, we never get told which House the Nerevarine joined (to tell the truth, I am not sure that someone won the war, as there was no king elected; someone above the fray like the guy in Whiterun could get the crown, and I think the fans would like it). Paarthurnax must be unknown to amost anyone in Tamriel, and has spent ages without going anywhere. The Emperor can be killed without the Brotherhood, as we've seen in the past, and the Penitus Oculatus already knew where the Brotherhood was and the password, so the two events don't exclude each other. There may be other such bifurcations, but I don't remember them right now.
    This strikes me as the most obvious route. Wherever and whenever TES6 takes place, the decisions that can be made in Skyrim will be rendered moot, unmentioned, or both.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    She didn’t even know what the necklace was; I think we can safely assume the who’s who of the Elder Council is beyond her current pool of contacts. Major government body or no, they’re still down in Cyrodiil and her area of operations is Skyrim, and it’s not like she can type ‘Amaund Motierre’ into a search engine and get his wiki page.
    Delvin Mallory recognizes the amulet pretty much instantly. Beyond that, a bunch of high-ranking Imperial officers and Thalmor agents who'd almost certainly personally know members of the Elder Council are in the province, at least the upper tier of Skyrim's local nobility at the bare minimum should have contacts with the Imperial Court...

    Skyrim's not some isolated backwater, and even in its dilapidated condition the local Dark Brotherhood chapter ought to have contacts among at least some of these groups. Heck, Delvin Mallory instantly recognizing what ought to be a very rare and, by your reasoning, hardly known in Skyrim piece of jewelry suggests that he might be someone to ask about the composition of the Elder Council.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-09-01 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Delvin Mallory recognizes the amulet pretty much instantly. Beyond that, a bunch of high-ranking Imperial officers and Thalmor agents who'd almost certainly personally know members of the Elder Council are in the province, at least the upper tier of Skyrim's local nobility at the bare minimum should have contacts with the Imperial Court...
    I think it is a mistake to parse too much significance into the "pretty much instantly" part. Remember how Calcelmo has spent years studying ancient Falmer, but Enthir picks it up in seconds after one glance at his Rosetta Stone? Research in Skyrim always happens at the speed of plot, and I assume that "pretty much instantly" may actually involve a good deal of rummaging through papers, consulting books and colleagues and other stuff that's just too dull to put in a cutscene.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    ... just too dull to put in a cutscene.
    There's been a cutscene that wasn't totally dull?
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    There's been a cutscene that wasn't totally dull?
    The execution cutscene is really cool the first time through.

    There was also the one in Knights of the Nine where you're rocketing through the sky, that was pretty exciting.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-09-02 at 03:43 AM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The execution cutscene is really cool the first time through.
    The first time maybe, I have never in any game whatever seen one that isn't dull the 101st time through.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I think it is a mistake to parse too much significance into the "pretty much instantly" part. Remember how Calcelmo has spent years studying ancient Falmer, but Enthir picks it up in seconds after one glance at his Rosetta Stone? Research in Skyrim always happens at the speed of plot, and I assume that "pretty much instantly" may actually involve a good deal of rummaging through papers, consulting books and colleagues and other stuff that's just too dull to put in a cutscene.
    If you want to show, or at least suggest, that something takes time to do, the most obvious way to handle it is to tell the player to come back later and maybe give them something to do in the meantime. Morrowind did this, Oblivion did this, Dragonborn did this...
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-09-02 at 06:31 AM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There was also the one in Knights of the Nine where you're rocketing through the sky, that was pretty exciting.
    In that vein, people joke about Meridia's beacon and the quest is too short for my liking but the end scene that shows you Skyrim from above is pretty cool, even if you can see Skyrim's technical limits from that angle.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Random question: how seriously am I supposed to to take AllInAll's interpretations of Elder Scrolls stuff?

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    Namely the idea that Ulfric Stormcloak and Elenwen apparently had some sort of relationship that produced a Nord-blooded Altmer kid that's now leading Thalmor efforts to excavate or rebuild Numidium...Where did these ideas COME from?!
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    It's a fanfic.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Random question: how seriously am I supposed to to take AllInAll's interpretations of Elder Scrolls stuff?

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    Namely the idea that Ulfric Stormcloak and Elenwen apparently had some sort of relationship that produced a Nord-blooded Altmer kid that's now leading Thalmor efforts to excavate or rebuild Numidium...Where did these ideas COME from?!
    Sounds like a bad fanfic.

    And after looking it up...... clearly IS a bad fanfic, from what little I read about it.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Allinall's stuff is good, but generally shouldn't be taken seriously. The Pelinal rock-opera is pretty amazing though. Just wish it was longer.

    In terms of general lore friendliness some of it is fairly accurate (see: aforementioned Pelinal opera) but stylized. Even for that though, it's like asking how seriously you should take Young Scrolls' work.

    In terms of their talent and ability to craft entertaining material? Allinall's animations are good and the beats on Zoom and Saint are ****ing sublime. They both have serious talent as artists, if that's what you mean.

    But are they "lore friendly"? Only in the sense of that "everything is canon, even fanworks" semi-canon meme.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-09-03 at 08:28 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    He is using the Thalmor's grand plan (unmake existence) whose canonicity depends on how much credit you give to the "Obscure Texts" since it is only at best implied in the games.

    For the rest, I don't think anyone would complain if VI had Mannimarco be back in some fashion. As for him having Thalmor ties, I don't think there's an argument to make either way*. The idea that Elenwen and Ulfric had a loving relationship and children I don't really like since she's all but stated to have been the one who oversaw his torture during the Great War. In any case, I have a hard time picturing anybody with that amount of Mannish blood reaching such a high position within the Thalmor.

    *The Thalmor could see ol' Many as either a great hero who personally achieved what they aim to do or a great betrayer who used the tools of the enemy for his own benefit and left everybody else to rot.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-09-03 at 09:21 AM.

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