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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Here's a brain buster for you: TES 6:Atmora

    Skyrim's Civil War made no difference because the continent of Atmora reappeared. It fulfilled a prophecy and the Thalmor were wiped out by a plague unleashed because of it, and now the empire is trying to settle this new land. But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands, plus a Khajiit legend of the end times which they've come in force to prevent.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Here's a brain buster for you: TES 6:Atmora

    Skyrim's Civil War made no difference because the continent of Atmora reappeared. It fulfilled a prophecy and the Thalmor were wiped out by a plague unleashed because of it, and now the empire is trying to settle this new land. But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands, plus a Khajiit legend of the end times which they've come in force to prevent.
    While I certainly wouldn't mind going to Atmora, I thought it wasn't so much missing as frozen solid?

    Even with that being true there are still possibilities of course. Lots of ancient ruins buried in the ice, the mystery of how/why it froze over in the first place, settlers and explorers who are in way over their heads and need the player's help to obtain food/find shelter/fight off the giant Ice Worm with the huge burning knife for a face native creatures. Entire lost cities populated with the ghosts of the people who didn't flee to Tamriel in time...officials getting assassinated left, right and center as the various factions try to outmaneuver each other in order to lay claim to it...

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands
    I think you may be confusing Atmora and Aldmeris.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I think you may be confusing Atmora and Aldmeris.
    Yeah Atmora actually exists, Aldmeris is just the Altmer's collective fever dream they all insist for reals actually happened like some elven lost city.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-09-03 at 06:40 PM.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yeah Atmora actually exists, Aldmeris is just the Altmer's collective fever dream they all insist for reals actually happened like some elven lost city.
    Hey now, It can be a real place. If it is, though, the most likely candidate is mainland Tamriel since it'd fit with the Annotated Anuad, explain when the Bosmer got to Tamriel (they didn't leave the Aldmer, it was the other way around) and why Topal was looking in that direction.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He is using the Thalmor's grand plan (unmake existence) whose canonicity depends on how much credit you give to the "Obscure Texts" since it is only at best implied in the games.
    Wait, there's no concrete evidence in Skyrim itself that unmaking reality is what the Thalmor are working towards?
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Wait, there's no concrete evidence in Skyrim itself that unmaking reality is what the Thalmor are working towards?
    Esbern mentions it. On the way back to Delphine after digging him out of Riften IIRC.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Esbern mentions it. On the way back to Delphine after digging him out of Riften IIRC.
    Indeed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Esbern
    "Well. They've been hunting down Blades since the Great War, on general principle. But if you mean me, now, in particular... maybe they've started to get an inkling of what the return of the dragons means. I don't suppose they want the world to end any more than we do. Or at least, they'd prefer it to end on their terms."
    important wording there. that is a voiced line in a main quest.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    About the Thalmor, I think I remember that the Elves consider themselves of the same kind as the Gods, but severed from them by the act of creation, which is why they see Lorkhan (or his equivalent) in a negative light. So undoing creation to gain back their place does sound like what a group of very nationalist high elves could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Here's a brain buster for you: TES 6:Atmora

    Skyrim's Civil War made no difference because the continent of Atmora reappeared. It fulfilled a prophecy and the Thalmor were wiped out by a plague unleashed because of it, and now the empire is trying to settle this new land. But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands, plus a Khajiit legend of the end times which they've come in force to prevent.
    I have a great idea: TES Atmora as a MMORPG set in this deserted continent, no NPCs, with just the players discovering a new world!
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I have a great idea: TES Atmora as a MMORPG set in this deserted continent, no NPCs, with just the players discovering a new world!
    and we can have a microtransaction shop in it, and put all the bugs and glitches we can in it, after all who doesn't everyone love those funny bethesda glitch moments, am I right? whats a few exploiters managing to exploit the game to the point where they can abuse it to get stuff from said microtransaction shop so that they don't have to pay for any it between friends?

    and then we can release a Skyrim-based update to it six months to a year later so they can have more Skyrim in their Atmora, after all why stop selling Skyrim just because its another game right? we can sell Skyrim with OTHER GAMES TOO! So that every game is in some way, selling Skyrim again. It just works, Vinyadan. It just works.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    important wording there. that is a voiced line in a main quest.
    But it doesn't actually say that the Thalmor are actively working to end the world, only that they want it to end on their terms if that's what's going to happen anyway. Not to mention it's one man's opinion when all is said and done, and he could be, y'know, *wrong*. Concrete evidence would consist, IMHO, of some smoking gun parchment found in the Thalmor embassy, and I don't recall finding anything like that.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    But it doesn't actually say that the Thalmor are actively working to end the world, only that they want it to end on their terms if that's what's going to happen anyway. Not to mention it's one man's opinion when all is said and done, and he could be, y'know, *wrong*. Concrete evidence would consist, IMHO, of some smoking gun parchment found in the Thalmor embassy, and I don't recall finding anything like that.
    Right, because an organization like the Thalmor is just going to leave evidence like that around for some to cause a political scandal when its in their best interests to not say what their goals are in the middle of the kingdom full of nords that hate elves on principle. and announcing that your going to destroy the world is generally not a good political move in general. while Esbern is an experienced Blade who has probably been investigating this for a while to figure out WHY they're doing all this, so I'd trust him over any thing the Thalmor themselves would say because why would they even write that down?

    while Alduin wouldn't end the world in a way they want: he would end the world to make way for a new kalpa, which probably doesn't achieve the "return to their spiritual godliness" thing they intend, but start a new age on Nirn itself, thus keeping it intact but ruining any chance of them succeeding. so they have reason to stop him because his "end" is a part of a cycle, not a true return to their spirit ancestor state.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    I also doubt any of the Thalmor in Skyrim would have any reason to discuss the plan to end the world, especially in writing. It's a plan for the rulers of the Thalmor and their magical and theological advisors to discuss and work on from the safety of the Summerset Isles, their agents don't need to know anything about it that you couldn't hear from any altmer priest of Auri-El. Hell, most of their agents don't even need to believe in it being possible or desirable to act towards it.

    The elven faiths preach that the world is a prison, it's a common thread in most of them, but I doubt most elves actually believe it deep down, much as I doubt many Nords truly believe in Sovngarde, or believed in Alduin or dragons.

    In theory the divide between true religious zealots and pragmatic racists could extend all the way up their heirarchy. We don't know anything about who's actually in charge of the Thalmor as an organisation, it's entirely possible that some of the highest ranking members believe in ending the world and have the steps they believe to be important in that as part of the cost of their cooperation with the more down to earth Thalmor. Coincidentally the important stuff to end the world is mostly things the Thalmor want to do anyway regardless of if it brings about the end of days. Oppress non-altmer, outlaw Talos, destroy the Empire, hoard magical and religious artifacts which might be helpful to bring about or prevent the end of the world.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    The elven faiths preach that the world is a prison, it's a common thread in most of them, but I doubt most elves actually believe it deep down, much as I doubt many Nords truly believe in Sovngarde, or believed in Alduin or dragons.
    Most Nords seem to take Sovngarde pretty seriously, and I don't see any signs of prior non-belief in dragons either. There are dragon burial mounds all over the landscape, dragon word walls, there's even a dragon skull mounted on the wall in Dragonsreach.

    I am sceptical of Esbern's level of knowledge and understanding of the Thalmor's agenda. Sure, he's a Blade, but all that means is that he would have been privy to some of the rumours and speculation of that organisation. And the one thing we can say with certainty about the Blades' knowledge of the Thalmor is, it wasn't good enough.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    On how to handle Skyrim in the next game: Something bad happened that overshadowed the entire game specifically becuase the Psjdic order ran off with th Eye of Magnus before the LAst Dragon Born could use it, as the Auger told them too.

    the Psjdics are in the next game as a major faction, split between "well, how could we know that would happen" asshats and people who are actually apologetic over their screw-up. May or may not be part of the main quest
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Right, because an organization like the Thalmor is just going to leave evidence like that around for some to cause a political scandal when its in their best interests to not say what their goals are in the middle of the kingdom full of nords that hate elves on principle. and announcing that your going to destroy the world is generally not a good political move in general. while Esbern is an experienced Blade who has probably been investigating this for a while to figure out WHY they're doing all this, so I'd trust him over any thing the Thalmor themselves would say because why would they even write that down?
    Would now be a good time to remind you that Esbern is also slightly loopy and definitely more than a bit paranoid? Recall his reaction when you first meet him in the Riften sewers. Sure, the Thalmor have excellent reasons to want him dead, but there's suitable caution and then there's whatever the heck he's doing. As for leaving evidence around, they're definitely happy to leave written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    ...Wait, wasn't Ancarno actively trying to destroy the world with the Eye of Magnus?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!
    Asset, not agent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...Wait, wasn't Ancarno actively trying to destroy the world with the Eye of Magnus?
    Aye. But it's never said wether it's a Thalmor thing or an Ancano thing.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I am sceptical of Esbern's level of knowledge and understanding of the Thalmor's agenda. Sure, he's a Blade, but all that means is that he would have been privy to some of the rumours and speculation of that organisation. And the one thing we can say with certainty about the Blades' knowledge of the Thalmor is, it wasn't good enough.
    I will point out that Esbern is specifically the Blades’ Loremaster. It’s literally his job to know these things, and the last time he brought up a crackpot theory and no one believed him it was about Alduin, and he was spot on about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    the Psjdics are in the next game as a major faction, split between "well, how could we know that would happen" asshats and people who are actually apologetic over their screw-up. May or may not be part of the main quest
    Sad part is I wouldn’t have given this possibility any weight before ESO…and now I consider it a strong possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Would now be a good time to remind you that Esbern is also slightly loopy and definitely more than a bit paranoid? Recall his reaction when you first meet him in the Riften sewers. Sure, the Thalmor have excellent reasons to want him dead, but there's suitable caution and then there's whatever the heck he's doing. As for leaving evidence around, they're definitely happy to leave written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!
    How exactly do you get ‘loopy’ out of Esbern’s behavior?

    Also, Ulfric being an asset is extremely relevant to the work the Embassy is doing (keeping the war going). It’s the kind of thing that could plausibly end up in the new employee briefing - ‘if by chance you run across the leader of the Stormcloaks, don’t kill him because we need him alive.’

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    I will point out that Esbern is specifically the Blades’ Loremaster. It’s literally his job to know these things, and the last time he brought up a crackpot theory and no one believed him it was about Alduin, and he was spot on about that.
    1. Sure, but as I said - the one thing we know for stone cold certainty about the Blades' intel on the Thalmor is, it wasn't very good. Even at the height of their power, they could neither accurately estimate the Thalmor's strength nor anticipate their moves. Esbern's speculation may be relatively well informed, but it's still speculation.

    (Edit: 1a: I'm also not entirely convinced that "Loremaster" translates accurately to "chief intelligence analyst". Seems likely that "Archivist" might be a more plausible equivalent.)

    2. Spot on? I thought we agreed just a few pages ago that Alduin wasn't, perceptibly, trying to destroy the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Also, Ulfric being an asset is extremely relevant to the work the Embassy is doing (keeping the war going). It’s the kind of thing that could plausibly end up in the new employee briefing - ‘if by chance you run across the leader of the Stormcloaks, don’t kill him because we need him alive.’
    That's no reason to have it written down in the Embassy, unless either (a) you are over-confident in the Embassy's own security and sure it could never fall into unfriendly hands, or (b) you don't mind it falling into unfriendly hands because it's not actually true, but designed to mislead your enemies. In the former case, the lack of other written evidence in the Embassy remains unexplained. In the latter case that lack makes perfect sense, but we'd have to admit that any other evidence was also unreliable anyway so what's the point.
    Last edited by veti; 2021-09-04 at 07:12 AM.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I also doubt any of the Thalmor in Skyrim would have any reason to discuss the plan to end the world, especially in writing. It's a plan for the rulers of the Thalmor and their magical and theological advisors to discuss and work on from the safety of the Summerset Isles, their agents don't need to know anything about it that you couldn't hear from any altmer priest of Auri-El. Hell, most of their agents don't even need to believe in it being possible or desirable to act towards it.

    The elven faiths preach that the world is a prison, it's a common thread in most of them, but I doubt most elves actually believe it deep down, much as I doubt many Nords truly believe in Sovngarde, or believed in Alduin or dragons.

    In theory the divide between true religious zealots and pragmatic racists could extend all the way up their heirarchy. We don't know anything about who's actually in charge of the Thalmor as an organisation, it's entirely possible that some of the highest ranking members believe in ending the world and have the steps they believe to be important in that as part of the cost of their cooperation with the more down to earth Thalmor. Coincidentally the important stuff to end the world is mostly things the Thalmor want to do anyway regardless of if it brings about the end of days. Oppress non-altmer, outlaw Talos, destroy the Empire, hoard magical and religious artifacts which might be helpful to bring about or prevent the end of the world.
    So it doesn't really make much of a difference if the the dissolution of reality in an attempt to reclaim pre-creation spiritual forms is an active goal of the Thalmor or if it's just a sort of guiding ethos, taking Altmer religious philosophy to an extreme as justification for their real-world activities, and thus the idea that they're trying to rebuild Akulakhan and convert all of Summerset Isle into a giant crystal battery/remote-control for it so they can stop around Tamriel to destroy the Towers holding reality together is just AllinAll's speculation?

    I was just kinda concerned because it looks like, from some of AllinAll's other videos, that he's got ties to Michael Kirkbride (who sang a cover of "Fly Me to the Moon" for the credits of AllinAll's Elder Scrolls/Evangelion mashup) and has had FudgeMuppet do voicework for some of his videos. I wondered if having connections to those kinds of big names in Elder Scrolls lore and Fandom meant AllinAll had some kind of insider information in regards to where the setting is going.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    So it doesn't really make much of a difference if the the dissolution of reality in an attempt to reclaim pre-creation spiritual forms is an active goal of the Thalmor or if it's just a sort of guiding ethos, taking Altmer religious philosophy to an extreme as justification for their real-world activities, and thus the idea that they're trying to rebuild Akulakhan and convert all of Summerset Isle into a giant crystal battery/remote-control for it so they can stop around Tamriel to destroy the Towers holding reality together is just AllinAll's speculation?

    I was just kinda concerned because it looks like, from some of AllinAll's other videos, that he's got ties to Michael Kirkbride (who sang a cover of "Fly Me to the Moon" for the credits of AllinAll's Elder Scrolls/Evangelion mashup) and has had FudgeMuppet do voicework for some of his videos. I wondered if having connections to those kinds of big names in Elder Scrolls lore and Fandom meant AllinAll had some kind of insider information in regards to where the setting is going.
    Unfortunately No. Kirkbride is not canon, despite the fact that his ideas are infinitely cooler and more interesting than anything bethesda could dream up because they delve straight into the kind of weirdness that makes Elder Scrolls more than just a DnD clone in digital form. a sad state of affairs to be sure.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    1. Sure, but as I said - the one thing we know for stone cold certainty about the Blades' intel on the Thalmor is, it wasn't very good. Even at the height of their power, they could neither accurately estimate the Thalmor's strength nor anticipate their moves. Esbern's speculation may be relatively well informed, but it's still speculation.
    Citation needed. While we know they were on the losing side of the Great War, we know the Blades won enough minor victories that the Thalmor still consider them a threat. We also know that the Blades no longer had a direct line to the Emperor, as the Mede Dynasty replaced them with the Penitus Oculatus, so they were fighting with a handicap. And on top of that the area protected by the Blades got hit by more in the way of disasters (succession crisis right after the Oblivion Crisis, Umbriel, the fall of Baar Dau and the Red Year) than the Thalmor prior to the Great War.

    No indication whatsoever that their loss was due to bad information.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    (Edit: 1a: I'm also not entirely convinced that "Loremaster" translates accurately to "chief intelligence analyst". Seems likely that "Archivist" might be a more plausible equivalent.)
    While that is not untrue:

    He was not a field agent, but is now believed to have been behind some of the most damaging operations carried out by the Blades during the pre-war years, including the Falinesti Incident and the breach of the Blue River Prison.
    He knew enough about the Thalmor's plans to hurt them and to avoid them when most of the rest of the Blades' organization was killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    2. Spot on? I thought we agreed just a few pages ago that Alduin wasn't, perceptibly, trying to destroy the world.
    Eh? He knew Alduin was going to come back before he came back, which was why everyone thought Esbern was crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    That's no reason to have it written down in the Embassy, unless either (a) you are over-confident in the Embassy's own security and sure it could never fall into unfriendly hands,
    ...which is the Thalmor to the T.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    or (b) you don't mind it falling into unfriendly hands because it's not actually true, but designed to mislead your enemies. In the former case, the lack of other written evidence in the Embassy remains unexplained. In the latter case that lack makes perfect sense, but we'd have to admit that any other evidence was also unreliable anyway so what's the point.
    As I believe has been pointed out before, if you're letting your enemies get into your inner sanctum just to mislead them, that's not cleverness that's incompetence, and the Thalmor aren't that.

    Also, they had the location of Esbern written down as well, and that is perfectly verifiable.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Citation needed. While we know they were on the losing side of the Great War, we know the Blades won enough minor victories that the Thalmor still consider them a threat. We also know that the Blades no longer had a direct line to the Emperor, as the Mede Dynasty replaced them with the Penitus Oculatus, so they were fighting with a handicap. And on top of that the area protected by the Blades got hit by more in the way of disasters (succession crisis right after the Oblivion Crisis, Umbriel, the fall of Baar Dau and the Red Year) than the Thalmor prior to the Great War.

    No indication whatsoever that their loss was due to bad information.
    The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.
    Still doesn't prove their information was bad. Being badly outgunned is a possibility, for example.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.
    That a matter of perspective really.

    Were the Blades defeated humiliatingly... Or were the Thalmor agents who took them out just that good?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Still doesn't prove their information was bad. Being badly outgunned is a possibility, for example.
    They're spies, my dude. They didn't get killed in battle. The Thalmor managed to indentify them all and murder them without any of them managing to escape. This is a massive operation that required dozens or hundreds of Thalmor agents to act in a coordinated fashion across two provinces. This wouldnahve taken months to prepare despite the Thalmor most likely being the single most important group of interest to the Blades. And the Blades (and the Empire at large) were taken completely unawares.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That a matter of perspective really.

    Were the Blades defeated humiliatingly... Or were the Thalmor agents who took them out just that good?
    That seems like a rather semantic difference. For an intelligence group, the defeat is humiliating either way.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That seems like a rather semantic difference. For an intelligence group, the defeat is humiliating either way.
    It's only a humiliating defeat if you should have won but lost for reasons outside your control.

    Ain't no shame in being beaten by someone who is just legitimately better than you.

    I'm not willing to assume that this group who for four games were set up as an ancient order of super badasses got beaten out of stupidity.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's only a humiliating defeat if you should have won but lost for reasons outside your control.

    Ain't no shame in being beaten by someone who is just legitimately better than you.

    I'm not willing to assume that this group who for four games were set up as an ancient order of super badasses got beaten out of stupidity.
    For a group that prides itself on being very good, finding somebody who is leagues ahead of you and losing to them is still humiliating. It makes you look bad. Also, you know, they all died, which is kind of embarassing.
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