Do Shillelagh Builds actually hold up??

[5eNeedsDarksun]

IÂ’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesnÂ’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

IÂ’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

A few thoughts:
If you are able to stealth/ scout it's possible to mitigate some of the bonus action duplication and get it out of the way before the fight starts. On a Ranger, particularly some subclasses like Gloomstalker, it's probably the goal to do this regularly.
2) My main concern over this build would be armor class and other dex based abilities, in the sense that making a 'SAD' Ranger character based on Wisdom really isn't possible. Your job is fighting and you've basically committed to not raise dex, so you are going to be taking a lot of hits because of AC. You've also got initiative, saving throw, and proficiency (like stealth and acrobatics) concerns.
3) Sharpshooter is good, but my experience is that there are times with my Ranger multi-class where I take the -5 penalty and times where I don't. By tier 3 my guy could be rolling a lot of damage dice (particularly on the first shot of the round) and sometimes the math just said don't take the penalty. Eliminating range and cover penalties is, of course, great.

While I've never tried what you are suggesting on a Ranger, I'd say the benefit doesn't really outweigh what you are putting into it. Ranger doesn't really have that many abilities that already key off of Wisdom, and a 14-16 is generally considered adequate for the few attack spells you are going to be casting. Dex is used for a lot, not just your attack stat.
By comparison something like a Paladin who takes a dip into Hexblade gets a lot more and gives up a lot less by trying to go SAD chr. Besides the spells, Charisma is the stat for Channel Divinity and the OP 6th level aura. Strength doesn't apply to initiative, is an uncommon save, and only applies to 1 skill.

[RogueJK]

Your job is fighting and you've basically committed to not raise dex, so you are going to be taking a lot of hits because of AC.

No, not really. A DEX-based Ranger with max DEX and a WIS-based Ranger with 14 DEX are going to have basically the same AC.

DEX-based with 20 Dex and Studded Leather = 17 AC or 19 AC with a Shield

WIS-based with 14 DEX and Splint or Breastplate = 16 AC or 18 with a Shield
WIS-based with 14 DEX and Half Plate = 17 AC or 19 with a Shield


You can easily start with a 14 DEX. You can't easily start with a 20 DEX. (Really generous stat rolls aside, most characters tend to start with a 16 or 17 in their primary stat.)

So at most, a DEX-based Light Armor Ranger could have 1 higher point of AC than some Medium Armor Rangers, and that's only after pumping their DEX up to 20 using several ASIs, which likely won't be until Level 8+ (or even longer if they take a feat like Sharpshooter or whatever at 4th/8th instead of pumping DEX). Prior to maxing DEX, the Light Armor Ranger will have a 15/17 AC (16 DEX) or 16/18 AC (18 DEX). Whereas a WIS-based Medium Armor Ranger that starts with 14 DEX can have 16/18 AC from Level 1.

This means a 14 DEX/16 WIS Medium Armor Ranger will have the higher AC for at least the first 4 levels, compared to a Light Armor Ranger starting 16 DEX/14 WIS. And then once they acquire Half Plate armor, they'll have the same AC as a 20 DEX Light Armor Ranger, and they can most likely get their hands on a set several levels before the average Light Armor Ranger can max their DEX to 20.

You've also got initiative, saving throw, and proficiency (like stealth and acrobatics) concerns.

Yes, DEX-based saves and skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics will be lower (especially if they're wearing non-Breastplate Medium Armor and therefore have Disadvantage on Stealth checks), but their WIS-based saves and skills like Animal Handling, Survival, Perception, and Insight will be higher in return. One's not necessarily worse than the other, just different. Not all Rangers have to be sneaky, stealthy, and lithe.

In fact, it could be argued that WIS saves are more important the DEX, since failed DEX saves often only result in HP damage, whereas failed WIS saves usually result in debilitating status effects that can completely remove you from the fight or impact your actions. And Perception checks are undeniably the most-used skill check in the game.

The point about a lower Initiative is valid, though. (Unless we're talking Gloomstalker Rangers who get +WIS to Initiative, in which case it's a wash.) But the tradeoff is that the WIS-based Ranger's spellcasting will be more potent than the DEX-based Ranger. Plus certain subclasses have useful abilities that greatly benefit from a high WIS, such as Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer Rangers.

Diff'rent strokes.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No, not really. A DEX-based Ranger with max DEX and a WIS-based Ranger with 14 DEX are going to have basically the same AC.

DEX-based with 20 Dex and Studded Leather = 17 AC or 19 AC with a Shield

WIS-based with 14 DEX and Splint or Breastplate = 16 AC or 18 with a Shield
WIS-based with 14 DEX and Half Plate = 17 AC or 19 with a Shield


You can easily start with a 14 DEX. You can't easily start with a 20 DEX. (Really generous stat rolls aside, most characters tend to start with a 16 or 17 in their primary stat.)

So at most, a DEX-based Light Armor Ranger could have 1 higher point of AC than some Medium Armor Rangers, and that's only after pumping their DEX up to 20 using several ASIs, which likely won't be until Level 8+ (or even longer if they take a feat like Sharpshooter or whatever at 4th/8th instead of pumping DEX). Prior to maxing DEX, the Light Armor Ranger will have a 15/17 AC (16 DEX) or 16/18 AC (18 DEX). Whereas a WIS-based Medium Armor Ranger that starts with 14 DEX can have 16/18 AC from Level 1.

This means a 14 DEX/16 WIS Medium Armor Ranger will have the higher AC for at least the first 4 levels, compared to a Light Armor Ranger starting 16 DEX/14 WIS. And then once they acquire Half Plate armor, they'll have the same AC as a 20 DEX Light Armor Ranger, and they can most likely get their hands on a set several levels before the average Light Armor Ranger can max their DEX to 20.



Yes, DEX-based saves and skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics will be lower (especially if they're wearing non-Breastplate Medium Armor and therefore have Disadvantage on Stealth checks), but their WIS-based saves and skills like Animal Handling, Survival, Perception, and Insight will be higher in return. One's not necessarily worse than the other, just different. Not all Rangers have to be sneaky, stealthy, and lithe.

In fact, it could be argued that WIS saves are more important the DEX, since failed DEX saves often only result in HP damage, whereas failed WIS saves usually result in nasty status effects. And Perception checks are undeniably the most-used skill check in the game.

The point about a lower Initiative is valid, though. (Unless we're talking Gloomstalker Rangers who get +WIS to Initiative, in which case it's a wash.) But the tradeoff is that the WIS-based Ranger's spellcasting will be more potent than the DEX-based Ranger. Plus certain subclasses have useful abilities that greatly benefit from a high WIS, such as Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer Rangers.

Diff'rent strokes.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This build invloves trading one of the key parts of your secondary stat with your primary stat to essentially make Wisdom more crutial than Dex for this character. Yes, both are important both in the game and to this character. My point was, particularly with the comparison to Paladin with a Hexblade dip is that this does not make this character SAD. This isn't as much of a net gain as it is a trade off, and if you are having to make investments to get it, such as using feats to get cantrips or fighting in a way that isn't optimal, then I wouldn't bother. The Paladin situation, on the other hand, allows you to pump Chr instead of Str, which has a lot more game applications.

[meandean]

The only instance I could think of that this would actually matter is that it makes prepping shillelagh and casting a leveled spell on the same turn illegal because you can't switch the action types (like you can with a quickened spell). Not only is this something that almost never comes up, if it was legal it would change nothing.

I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

[CMCC]

I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

That’s my primary issue with that arcana build. And if you want to throw up spiritual weapon too - yikes.

[LudicSavant]

I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

Yep, this.

That’s my primary issue with that arcana build. And if you want to throw up spiritual weapon too - yikes.

Personally, I rarely cast all 3 of those after initiative starts. Usually one or two -- or completely different spells, as the situation dictates. I rarely cast buffs on turn 2+ unless I expect those buffs to last into additional combats (or I expect an exceptionally long fight).

As an example, if I were in the following situation (completely unaware a fight was going to start, nothing up when init is rolled, expect a fight around 3 rounds or so), instead of SG + SW + Shillelagh, I might do SG -> Thorn Whip to pull someone into SG and teammate hazards (and Shillelagh on the same turn) --> Booming Blade. Using just one spell slot, getting some combo damage, maybe having SG up for an additional fight.

The thing is, you don't actually need Shillelagh to "keep up," because being a SAD caster with Potent Toll the Dead is already able to give you a solid baseline cantrip. Shillelagh gets you more than TtD when you have an opportunity to use it. It's a bonus, not a necessity.

Like, the build has Thorn Whip. That doesn't mean that it's a "Thorn Whip build" that needs to find a way to use Thorn Whip for every situation. You don't need to try to force a square peg into a round hole. Just use Shillelagh when it's convenient, usually as a pre-cast.

While it doesn't happen all the time, you will often have situations where you already have Shillelagh or a duration Concentration spell (like Summon Celestial or Spirit Guardians) when the fight starts. Being able to take advantage of those times adds a lot of value.

Also worth noting, Clerics have great Perception. Take advantage of it and divinations and such to reduce the amount that you get blindsided by encounters.

As far as casting it every 30 seconds, I've found that players are generally pretty reasonable if the DM is reasonable. When the players are on the move, kicking down doors, I have no problem with someone obsessively casting Shillelagh every thirty seconds or so, any more than I have a problem with someone obsessively checking their ammo.

But when the players are stationary for hours, and a player says "I keep casting Shillelagh", I find that if I say, "Really? I was okay with it when you were moving--casting Shillelagh ten times in eight minutes is perfectly reasonable. But are you really going to cast Shillelagh hundreds of times over the next eight hours? That's like trying to sing Ten Thousand Bottles of Beer on the Wall--nothing prevents you from doing it, but are you really going to?" If I say this, then players are likely to shrug and say, "Okay, then I cast it as soon as something suspicious happens," and I agree, and now the player gets what they want (Shillelagh is usually available outside of truly surprising threats, like werewolves suddenly attacking you while you're reading in a library) and yet I get what I want (dozens of Shillelaghs per day instead of thousands).

This is about how I see it as well. I would expect players to be having Shillelagh up basically whenever they would have reason to be "on guard." But not just when they're casually strolling about town.

If a DM won't even let you cast Shillelagh when you're kicking down doors, then that alters things -- you might consider just dropping Magic Initiate for another nice feat, like, I dunno, Aberrant Dragonmark.

[diplomancer]

This is about how I see it as well. I would expect players to be having Shillelagh up basically whenever they would have reason to be "on guard." But not just when they're casually strolling about town.

If a DM won't even let you cast Shillelagh when you're kicking down doors, then that alters things -- you might consider just dropping Magic Initiate for another nice feat, like, I dunno, Aberrant Dragonmark.

I can see that, but wouldn't you say that doing it every 30 seconds would at least give something like disadvantage on stealth (maybe not a problem if you're already wearing heavy armor)?

[LudicSavant]

I can see that, but wouldn't you say that doing it every 30 seconds would at least give something like disadvantage on stealth (maybe not a problem if you're already wearing heavy armor)?

Yeah, basically. Not very suitable for a stealth party, not a problem in a clanky party.

You should always consider your party composition and table when choosing your build.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah, basically. Not very suitable for a stealth party, not a problem in a clanky party.

You should always consider your party composition and table when choosing your build.

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

[RogueJK]

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

Yes, Gloomstalkers specifically benefit more than others from being DEX-based with Light Armor, precisely because they're more geared towards being a stealthy/sneaky/scouty subclass. (Especially if they multiclass into Rogue, which itself would render Shillelagh rather useless since it couldn't trigger Sneak Attack.)

However, the OP wasn't considering only Gloomstalker; they were also considering Swarmkeeper. And something like a Swarmkeeper, Hunter, or Fey Wanderer can easily be built as a WIS-based melee build with Medium Armor and only a 14 DEX, with no emphasis on stealth. It depends on the type of character you want to play, your role in the party, and the party composition, as Ludic stated. Not all Ranger characters are required to be the stealthy scout of the group, or an archer.

There's nothing inherent to the Ranger class that pushes you towards being DEX-based, unlike with the Rogue who only gets Light Armor and needs to use a Finesse or Ranged weapon anyway for Sneak Attack purposes. (And even a Rogue can be built as STR-based, with the help of a multiclass dip or the Moderately Armored feat.)

Rather, Rangers are perfectly capable of being played as the "moderately armored melee" type, either STR-based or now WIS-based thanks to Druidic Warrior. Either way, you end up with a Ranger that's kinda like a more skilled and nature-focused melee Fighter with some spells, or a more melee-focused Nature Cleric/Druid type.

WIS-based Ranger builds also open up some interesting multiclass options, like Arcana Cleric or Stars Druid.

[LudicSavant]

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

I wasn’t talking about the Ranger, I was talking about the Cleric.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I wasn’t talking about the Ranger, I was talking about the Cleric.

Fair enough. On a Cleric or Druid I think Shillelagh probably makes more sense. A character is already more reliant on Wisdom (and less so for Dex based skills), being a primary spellcaster and using Chanel Divinity, so getting to attack with the same stat really does get closer to a SAD build.

[MaxWilson]

There's nothing inherent to the Ranger class that pushes you towards being DEX-based, unlike with the Rogue who only gets Light Armor and needs to use a Finesse or Ranged weapon anyway for Sneak Attack purposes. (And even a Rogue can be built as STR-based, with the help of a multiclass dip or the Moderately Armored feat.)

I think the lack of Heavy Armor proficiency counts as pushing Rangers towards Dex, as does the Dex 13 Wis 13 multiclassing requirement. Trying to play a Str 16+ Dex 10ish Ranger is inherently awkward in the same way as trying to play a Str 10ish Dex 16 Paladin. It's not impossible, but it's awkward and the opportunity cost is high.

[Dork_Forge]

I think the lack of Heavy Armor proficiency counts as pushing Rangers towards Dex, as does the Dex 13 Wis 13 multiclassing requirement. Trying to play a Str 16+ Dex 10ish Ranger is inherently awkward in the same way as trying to play a Str 10ish Dex 16 Paladin. It's not impossible, but it's awkward and the opportunity cost is high.

Wait is that primarily about multiclassing? Playing a straight sword and board Paladin, you'd arguably be better off with Dex over Str if you're not going to go for great weapons. You lose 1 AC, but gain the ability to switch hit along with the benfits of having a good Dex (initiative, skills etc.).

A good example of this is the Sorlock Sorcadin in one of my games, he uses heavy armor and sword and board, but a 10 Dex has bitten him in the butt numerous times whilst he gained no real benefit from the Str.

[MaxWilson]

Wait is that primarily about multiclassing? Playing a straight sword and board Paladin, you'd arguably be better off with Dex over Str if you're not going to go for great weapons. You lose 1 AC, but gain the ability to switch hit along with the benfits of having a good Dex (initiative, skills etc.).

A good example of this is the Sorlock in one of my games, he uses heavy armor and sword and board, but a 10 Dex has bitten him... numerous times whilst he gained no real benefit from the Str.

The opportunity cost is partly about multiclassing, more for the Paladin than the Ranger because of padlock, but the Str Ranger is also presumably forgoing Archery style + Sharpshooter which hurts his damage (Dueling is decent but not as good); he's making it harder for himself to use Spike Growth effectively; he's making a Conjure Animals both a boon and a curse (interferes with his ability to get into melee) instead of strictly a boon. That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind. Rangers just work so well as archers, and he's giving that up, and I'm not sure what he's even getting in return except better grappling.

P.S. Padlocks gain more from Str than Sorlocks do because of how Extra Attack interacts with grappling/etc.

[Dork_Forge]

The opportunity cost is partly about multiclassing, more for the Paladin than the Ranger because of padlock, but the Str Ranger is also presumably forgoing Archery style + Sharpshooter which hurts his damage (Dueling is decent but not as good); he's making it harder for himself to use Spike Growth effectively; he's making a Conjure Animals both a boon and a curse (interferes with his ability to get into melee) instead of strictly a boon. That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind. Rangers just work so well as archers, and he's giving that up, and I'm not sure what he's even getting in return except better grappling.

P.S. Padlocks gain more from Str than Sorlocks do because of how Extra Attack interacts with grappling/etc.

Well I did a stupid, I said Sorlock, I meant Sorcadin (Paladin 5/Divine Soul Sorc 3), sorry about that.

Oh I 100% agree about Str not being anywhere near as good for a Ranger, whilst it is doable, you'll always need and want at least +2 Dex to get by. I was just confused what was awkward/high opp cost for a Dexadin was all, it seems primarily MCing based, but as a DM I change the prereq on Paladins to Str/Dex + Cha, because it doens't make sense to me to keep it Str, so I'm probably biased in what I've seen at my tables.

[RogueJK]

That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind.

A WIS-based Ranger is no more MAD than a DEX-based ranger. WIS-based has one primary stat (WIS) and two secondary stats (CON and DEX). DEX-based has one primary stat (DEX) and two secondary stats (CON and WIS). You're just swapping which stat you're focusing on.

A STR-based Ranger is more MAD, with one primary stat and three secondary stats. But that's part of what makes the new opportunity to be a WIS-based melee Ranger with Shillelagh such a useful option.

[MaxWilson]

A WIS-based Ranger is no more MAD than a DEX-based ranger. WIS-based has one primary stat (WIS) and two secondary stats (CON and DEX). DEX-based has one primary stat (DEX) and two secondary stats (CON and WIS). You're just swapping which stat you're focusing on.

A STR-based Ranger is more MAD, with one primary stat and three secondary stats. But that's part of what makes the new opportunity to be a WIS-based melee Ranger with Shillelagh such a useful option.

Acknowledged, but then you

(1) need to multiclass (requiring Dex) or spend a feat (that could have gone towards Resilient (Wis)) to get shillelagh**, and

**or play with Tasha's, and STILL miss out on a fighting style and the benefits of Archery etc., see point #2.

(2) still suffer all the other opportunity cost consequences I mentioned such as Conjure Animals and Spike Growth becoming less useful.

In exchange you get... slightly higher DCs on your Ensnaring Strike and more healing from Cure Wounds? The best Ranger spells aren't Wisdom-dependent in the first place!

The opportunity cost just seems too high compared to the benefit.

Color me unimpressed.

[Stangler]

The key to a build like this IMO is to take advantage of a shield, multi attack, and duelling fighting style. Ideally bugbear as race for reach. SAD wisdom is only ok.

Straight casters and GWM/PAM or SS/xbow are better for sure. Smite builds too. You will still be solid though so if it fits your concept you can totally go for it.

[Witty Username]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This build invloves trading one of the key parts of your secondary stat with your primary stat to essentially make Wisdom more crutial than Dex for this character. Yes, both are important both in the game and to this character. My point was, particularly with the comparison to Paladin with a Hexblade dip is that this does not make this character SAD. This isn't as much of a net gain as it is a trade off, and if you are having to make investments to get it, such as using feats to get cantrips or fighting in a way that isn't optimal, then I wouldn't bother. The Paladin situation, on the other hand, allows you to pump Chr instead of Str, which has a lot more game applications.

I don't think hexblade/paladin is as cut and dry as that. You still want a 13 str to multiclass, and you probably want 15 to avoid the speed reduction (dwarves and wood elves need not apply). Also, you miss out on athletics and encumbrance which can be necessary for some out of combat stuff (lifting heavy gates or jumping pits to help set up rope lines have come to mind). and if you go for SAD you will be weak to grapples and shoves.
Most of this is DM dependent, so the point stands. But I would disagree that hexblade doesn't involve tradeoffs.

[Waistcoatwill]

I've recently been playing a Shillelagh/BB Tortle Spore Druid in PotA and easily keeping up with the rest of the party in terms of damage. Using summons alongside Shillelagh has been a very efficient use of spell slots, and relying on combat cantrips has made it very easy to keep allies up with healing word. The main issue is that it's really repetitive and I'm starting to get bored in a way I haven't with other casters.

[Keravath]

I find Shillelagh to have fairly limited usefulness.

1) It increases the damage of a one handed staff to d8 from d6 - increase of 1 DPR
2) It counts as a magical weapon

Neither of these are really that compelling

3) Shillelagh allows the character to use wisdom (their casting stat) for attack and damage bonus when using the weapon. (or charisma in the case of a Tomelock).

Finally

4) Shillelagh costs your bonus action on the first round of combat AND it counts as casting a bonus action spell so if you cast shillelagh you can only cast cantrips if you want to cast other spells.

----

Putting this together - Shillelagh is a means to make a character less MAD if they want to be able to make a melee weapon attack at the cost of a bonus action on the first round of combat. That is all the spell does.

Combining shillelagh with booming blade or green flame blade is sub-optimal compared to any other magical weapon except for a character that focuses on increasing their casting stat and may not have a decent casting stat. However, for a character with a 16 attack stat and 20 casting stat - a +2 weapon will be as good as shillelagh. Though this can be improved if using a staff by casting shillelagh and getting both the casting stat to hit/damage and the magical weapon bonuses.

The biggest problem though is the inefficiency of the bonus action competition.
- for clerics (like an arcana cleric with MI:Druid) - there is too much competition for the bonus action to make shillelagh work well. Spirit guardians and spiritual weapon are probably both higher priorities meaning that shillelagh doesn't get cast until the third round (assuming by that point that the cleric isn't using healing word).
- for druids - by tier 2 they may be well starting a fight with a spell like conjure animals thus delaying casting of shillelagh until the second round at least.
- tomelock can make it work but a hexblade picks up the charisma attack ability with any weapon which will be more efficient than shillelagh so a hexblade tomelock with a magical weapon will keep up or outpace the celestial tomelock but can use the charisma to hit with a much wider range of weapons.

Anyway, there are builds that can be made that will make use of shillelagh but honestly they aren't that great though some of them can be ok.

[LudicSavant]

Combining shillelagh with booming blade or green flame blade is sub-optimal compared to any other magical weapon

Shillelagh works on already-magic weapons.

[solidork]

Shillelagh works on already-magic weapons.

I got a randomly rolled Staff of Thunder and Lightning on my Fighter/Warlock and it was pretty baller with Shillelagh.

[JeffreyGator]

One more agreement that is holds up well for the Celestial Tomelock with GFB.

Mine is about to hit tier 4 and d8+6+2d8+4 fire (and maybe another 2d8+4 fire) is in the middle of the pack for our party.

About equal to our Drunk with 2xd10+5 and d6+3. Less than the sorcadin with 2x(2d6+6/7 + 2d6)

And the character dumped str and has only 14 dex and uses CHA for everything.

Small fights a lock isn't going to big spells and so this competes with eldritch blast (or even better since this particular lock uses Firebolt instead and gets 1-2 utility invocations back)

[mistajames]

In T1 it's fine if you don't have another use for your bonus action. A melee attack at 1d8+Wis at level 1 isn't great, but it's not terrible either. The fact that it's a magical weapon can be relevant too.

After level 5, it's usually bad. On top of the fact that it uses a Bonus Action to activate (which you can use for more useful things) it doesn't give you access to Extra Attack or anything else that would otherwise scale its damage. You're basically giving up a Bonus Action to not be MAD. You then need to find a source of Extra Attack and other attack options in order to scale your damage.

Alternatively, you could just play a Hexblade or a real martial character. Or just use a scaling cantrip like Thorn Whip or Produce Flame.

Not really worth the trade.

[RogueJK]

After level 5, it's usually bad. On top of the fact that it uses a Bonus Action to activate (which you can use for more useful things) it doesn't give you access to Extra Attack or anything else that would otherwise scale its damage. You're basically giving up a Bonus Action to not be MAD. You then need to find a source of Extra Attack and other attack options in order to scale your damage.

Shillelagh Rangers with Druidic Warrior fighting style don't have to look elsewhere for Extra Attack to scale their damage, it's part of their class.

Shillelagh Tomelocks don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their class. (Bonus points for Celestial Tomelocks using Shillelagh+GFB, who get even more bonus damage.)

Shillelagh Druid/Nature Cleric High Elfs or High Half Elfs don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their race.

None of the above require multiclassing or feats in order to get options to scale their Shillelagh damage.


And it's not giving up every Bonus Action. It's only one Bonus Action per combat, unless you have the opportunity to pre-cast Shillelagh, in which case it's none. That can be a good trade for being WIS/CHA SAD, especially for those that don't have many uses for their Bonus Action, or only occasionally use their Bonus Action on some turns.

[Garresh]

Nobody here is mentioning the greatest trait of shisghetti. A warrior to be as wise as he is strong. A magic initiate fighter who primaries Wisdom is therefore the ultimate warrior. You can even go Dwarf so you can use heavy armor without strength at no penalty.

[RogueJK]

Nobody here is mentioning the greatest trait of shisghetti. A warrior to be as wise as he is strong. A magic initiate fighter who primaries Wisdom is therefore the ultimate warrior. You can even go Dwarf so you can use heavy armor without strength at no penalty.

That would mesh well with a Samurai Fighter. They get +WIS to Persuasion, and WIS save proficiency.

Wouldn't even need to specifically take Magic Initiate Druid. A Wood Elf Fighter could take the Wood Elf Magic feat, which nets you a Druid cantrip. That just means no Heavy Armor.

That'd look something like:
Wood Elf Samurai Fighter 12, using medium armor, a staff, and a shield.
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 15+2
CHA 10
Feats: Wood Elf Magic, Elven Accuracy (+1 WIS), Polearm Master, +2 WIS
Fighter Skills: Insight, Acrobatics
Samurai Skill: Persuasion
Background Skills: Survival and Stealth
Racial Skill: Perception

With the Dueling fighting style, that's 3x 1d8+7 attacks per turn, plus a fourth 1d4+7 BA PAM attack on every turn you don't activate Shillelagh or Fighting Spirit. (You could also drop PAM in favor a different feat, if you're worried about Bonus Action clog.)

Plus, the high WISMOD, +WIS to Persuasion, and Persuasion/Insight proficiencies makes you a passable Face (from level 7+ at least). High WIS helps the elven racial Perception proficiency, and Survival too. And Pass Without Trace from Wood Elf Magic combined with Stealth proficiency and a moderate DEX means you can be stealthy when needed, especially if you're just wearing a Breastplate (no Disadvantage to stealth).

Not super optimized (especially considering it'd be a great crit-fisher but yet its crits aren't that impressive since you have no additional damage dice), but seems like a fun and well-rounded character to play, being useful both in and out of combat (unlike a lot of Fighters out there), and being quite a change from what you usually see in most Fighter builds.


The VHuman version of that would look something like:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 12
Feats: Magic Initiate Druid, Polearm Master, +2 WIS, Crusher (+1 CON), +2 WIS
Drop Stealth for Perception proficiency.
This one gets you a 2nd cantrip, so you can also pick up a ranged cantrip option like Thorn Whip/Produce Flame/Magic Stone. Plus a daily 1st level spell like Goodberry or Absorb Elements. Unfortunately, it means giving up the sweet Triple Advantage from Elven Accuracy.


The Heavy Armor Dwarf version would look something like this:
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 14+2
INT 9
WIS 15+2
CHA 12
Feats: Magic Initiate Druid, Fey Touched/Observant/Chef/Skill Expert (+1 WIS), Polearm Master, +2 WIS

[mistajames]

Shillelagh Rangers with Druidic Warrior fighting style don't have to look elsewhere for Extra Attack to scale their damage, it's part of their class.

Shillelagh Tomelocks don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their class. (Bonus points for Celestial Tomelocks using Shillelagh+GFB, who get even more bonus damage.)

Shillelagh Druid/Nature Cleric High Elfs or High Half Elfs don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their race.

None of the above require multiclassing or feats in order to get options to scale their Shillelagh damage.


And it's not giving up every Bonus Action. It's only one Bonus Action per combat, unless you have the opportunity to pre-cast Shillelagh, in which case it's none. That can be a good trade for being WIS/CHA SAD, especially for those that don't have many uses for their Bonus Action, or only occasionally use their Bonus Action on some turns.

Most of the good ways to boost damage involve feats, none of which save Crusher (which doesn't even directly boost damage) synergize with Shillelagh. You can Booming Blade/GFB with some builds I guess, which is mostly inferior to Extra Attack, but that's merely passible.