A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...If you are immune to the sword through your chest that causes you to bleed to death, the bullet that destroys your brain and instantly kills you, and the spear tipped with feces that kills you a week later from infection, you are logically also immune to paper cuts.

    If you can still suffer injury, sickness, or starvation that's not immortality. That's an evil genie putting you on life support, and you will die as soon as the genie is either defeated or decides that your constant agony isn't amusing anymore.

    Because to live forever requires you to be impervious to anything that could conceivably kill you.

    And that logically includes all firms of harm due to the simple fact that a knife doesn't care if it's slicing off your pinky or plunging into your heart.
    Im immortal, not indestructible. The sword through my chest wont kill me, because i cant die, but that doesnt mean there isnt a sword in my chest.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #1412
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Yes, immortality literally just means you can't die. Doesn't even mean you don't age (which is a trope in and of itself). Even complete immortality doesn't mean you can't be hurt or even disabled, it just means you can't die.

    Rater, what you want is indestructibility. Plus probably some asterisks about being unaging and disease immunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  3. - Top - End - #1413
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im immortal, not indestructible. The sword through my chest wont kill me, because i cant die, but that doesnt mean there isnt a sword in my chest.
    ...You're working backward.

    Immortality comes from an inability to be harmed. If you can just be walking around with a gaping chest would bleeding all over the place, either you're an undead creature, or something is artificially preventing you from dying when you should.

    In the first case, you're not alive in the traditional sense. In the second case, whatever it is preventing you from dying can probably be reversed or cut off.

    As I've alluded to, it's not immortality if the only reason you're not dead yet is that the evil genie hasn't finished laughing at your misfortune. That's just malicious life support.

    Genuine immortality would require the self-contained and inviolable ability to 1: perfectly recover from harm because you suffer death or long-term complications or 2: be completly impervious to harm in the first place.
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  4. - Top - End - #1414
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Rater, do you know Jack Harckness from Doctor Who and Torchwood? Ever since he's been brought back from the dead, he's been described as immortal since every time he suffers a fatal injury, he "dies" for like ten seconds and comes back to life fully healed.

    Do you agree that immortal is an accurrate description for him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  5. - Top - End - #1415
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...You're working backward.

    Immortality comes from an inability to be harmed.
    It does not. Harm is not death. Death is death. Immortality is the inability to die. Thats it. It is not the inability to be harmed, afflicted, debilitated, pained, or anything else. Its the inability to die.

    You seem to recognize that just immortality without any sort of requisite secondary powers would suck really hard, so im not sure why youre pushing back on the idea that a lot of people wouldnt want immortality.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2021-09-16 at 01:01 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...You're working backward.

    Immortality comes from an inability to be harmed. If you can just be walking around with a gaping chest would bleeding all over the place, either you're an undead creature, or something is artificially preventing you from dying when you should.
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  7. - Top - End - #1417
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    If something can be harmed but can't die it's immortal.

    If something can die but can't be harmed it's indestructible.

    These are two separate but not mutually exclusive states. Like being on fire and screaming. Being on fire doesn't automatically mean I'm screaming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  8. - Top - End - #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Rater, do you know Jack Harckness from Doctor Who and Torchwood? Ever since he's been brought back from the dead, he's been described as immortal since every time he suffers a fatal injury, he "dies" for like ten seconds and comes back to life fully healed.

    Do you agree that immortal is an accurrate description for him?
    It's implied that Jack will eventually become the Face of Boe(spelling?), and then ultimately die of old age. Eventually. Though double-checking it seems he died sacrificing himself instead.

    Thus, if those implications are true, then no, he is not immortal.

    Even if that's not true, it is explicitly noted that h's still getting aging, just at a much slower rate than other people. Thus, his ability to regenerate from injuries and revive himself upon death is imperfect as he's still accumulating wear and tear over time, it's just, less of it is sticking.

    Under a framework of hard scientific assumptions, that means that he's still eventually going to reach a point where his body can no longer function and must shut down and is thus not genuinely immortal...

    Though, admittedly, this is Doctor Who. HArd science went out the windows in the sixties.

    As I understand it, the only being in the franchise that is truly immortal is the Timeless Child, the entity from who, the first Gallifreyan Time Lords derived the ability to regenerate(and presumably most of the other powers that separate Time Lords from other Gallifreyans) and who can regenerate infintly without the need for an external source of regeneration energy and even then, since Time Lord regeneration essentially destroys and rebuilds your body, does so imperfectly resulting in differant physical appearance and even DNA, and comes with radical changes in personality as your new brain begins interpreting your old thoughts, even that is arguably a new individual inheriting a previous set of memories rather than actual immortality... A perspective that's shared by several incarnations of the Doctor.

    Admittedly, that's more philosophical than literal.

    Edit: Double checking, Jack is confirmed to become the Face of Boe by multiple authorial statements, so no, as the Face of Boe did ultimately die, Jack is not immortal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It does not. Harm is not death. Death is death. Immortality is the inability to die. Thats it. It is not the inability to be harmed, afflicted, debilitated, pained, or anything else. Its the inability to die.

    You seem to recognize that just immortality without any sort of requisite secondary powers would suck really hard, so im not sure why youre pushing back on the idea that a lot of people wouldnt want immortality.
    Harm is what causes death. You die becuase you bled out, or becuase the wrong cells went too long without food or oxygen, or becuase your brain turned off, or becuase you got too old and something you can't live without broke.

    IT's not "immortality without secondary powers is bad" it's "if it keeps you alive without making you impervious to harm then either it's not immortality or the people writing the story don't know how death works."

    Like, seriously, one of the first things I said in this discussion was that a black hole wouldn't be able to harm you if you were immortal. That should make it clear what we're talking about.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-09-16 at 02:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #1419
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Rater, you're just definitionally wrong here. As in your definition of immortality is wrong. If something I'd keeping you alive when you would otherwise die, then you're immortal, assuming it applies to all causes of death and lasts forever.

    You're adding a bunch of terms and conditions to it that aren't present in the actual meaning of the word.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  10. - Top - End - #1420
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    He’s getting too caught up in what circumstances would “realistically” allow someone to be immortal while ignoring the very concept of immortality is unrealistic. Yeah, getting stabbed in the chest and having it heal up would still cause wear and tear because in the real world that’s how healing works, but in the real world people aren’t invulnerable either so I don’t understand what the hang up is.

  11. - Top - End - #1421
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    It's also funny how you keep applying the criteria of nature, hard science and the like when assessing notions of immortality that do not conform to your unreasonably narrow definition of the term. "You are perfectly impervious to black holes" is neither more natural, nor more scientifically plausible than "black holes don't kill you; you live on as an elongated warp in spacetime that is in constant pain." Same goes for "your biological functions need no fuel" and "you don't need intact organs to live."

    Edit: Curses! Beeftank was faster than me!
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-09-16 at 02:40 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #1422
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    What's a Timeless Child? I thought regeneration was stolen from the Great Vampires? Also something something Guardians are IIRC immortal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  13. - Top - End - #1423
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...If you are immune to the sword through your chest that causes you to bleed to death, the bullet that destroys your brain and instantly kills you, and the spear tipped with feces that kills you a week later from infection, you are logically also immune to paper cuts.
    You're not immune to those, though. It's just that bleeding out doesn't kill you. Your heart keeps pumping anyway. Your bones keep making blood. It's just that your lungs don't get enough to pull enough oxygen to make you breathe easily. The bullet in your brain just puts you in a coma or severely impairs your cognitive abilities. The spear tipped with feces gives you an infection that makes you feel like death itself but you never succumb to it.

    Immortality is not invincibility. Immortality is magically not dying. It's not magically not getting hurt.
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  14. - Top - End - #1424
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You're not immune to those, though. It's just that bleeding out doesn't kill you. Your heart keeps pumping anyway. Your bones keep making blood. It's just that your lungs don't get enough to pull enough oxygen to make you breathe easily. The bullet in your brain just puts you in a coma or severely impairs your cognitive abilities. The spear tipped with feces gives you an infection that makes you feel like death itself but you never succumb to it.

    Immortality is not invincibility. Immortality is magically not dying. It's not magically not getting hurt.
    Wait, are we discussing invulnerability (cannot be haunted) or Invincibility (cannot be defeated)? Big difference there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  15. - Top - End - #1425
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Not to derail the conversation, but we're getting pretty close to the next thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Not to derail the conversation, but we're getting pretty close to the next thread.
    I think we lost the thread pages ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  17. - Top - End - #1427
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's implied that Jack will eventually become the Face of Boe(spelling?), and then ultimately die of old age. Eventually. Though double-checking it seems he died sacrificing himself instead.

    Thus, if those implications are true, then no, he is not immortal.

    Even if that's not true, it is explicitly noted that h's still getting aging, just at a much slower rate than other people. Thus, his ability to regenerate from injuries and revive himself upon death is imperfect as he's still accumulating wear and tear over time, it's just, less of it is sticking.
    Okay, but if one were to remove the ageing part, would you consider that immortality?

    As I understand it, the only being in the franchise that is truly immortal is the Timeless Child
    There's the Guardians, The Eternals (assuming Light didn't die, it's a weird episode), the Chronovores, The Great Intelligence (who did die but by scattering himself throughout the doctor's timeline into an absurd number of reincarnations) and I am probably forgetting a few other eldritch abominations. Oh and Rassilon also can regenerate an infinite number of times (and could still turn fools to stone* while being "dead" with a nod).


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Edit: Curses! Beeftank was faster than me!
    I mean, you are a plant and he has a horse.


    *Which is another case of "immortality sucks" these four are forever trapped into being statues and apparently sill conscious and able to move their eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  18. - Top - End - #1428
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I mean, you are a plant and he has a horse.

    But hey, at least that damn herbivore is moving away from me!

  19. - Top - End - #1429
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Resource scarcity is a myth: As technology improves, our ability to produce food, water, clothing, and shelter for the population increases at a rate that outstrips population growth, and technological improvement over a generation tend to be roughly twice the rate of the previous generation, meaning that the gap between resoruces produced and resources needed will keep getting wider. As it is, a good chunk of the food we grow ends up being thrown out.
    Resources are limited. In those cases when there is technically enough to go round, then there are still issues of transportation, and people wanting more than they have, even though they have enough.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  20. - Top - End - #1430
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    @Fyr: Remove the aging and the inevitable turning into a mortal giant head thing and Jack's power is close enough for government work.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Resources are limited. In those cases when there is technically enough to go round, then there are still issues of transportation, and people wanting more than they have, even though they have enough.
    That's less an issue of inherent scarcity and more an issue of logistics.

    So, changing the subject... Turns out that one of my cousin's caretakers has Covid really bad.

    And his other caretakers all refuse to get vaccinated, except for one woman.

    And almost all of them work with multiple people, so...

    You ever have one of those days where you're just kind of pissed off at the world because people are being stupid and putting people you care about at risk and there's nothing you can do about it?
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  21. - Top - End - #1431
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That's less an issue of inherent scarcity and more an issue of logistics.
    Transportaion is a resource, isn't it? If someone can't have something because there isn't transportation, they can't have it, the same as if it doesn't exist.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  22. - Top - End - #1432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    You ever have one of those days where you're just kind of pissed off at the world because people are being stupid and putting people you care about at risk and there's nothing you can do about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Transportaion is a resource, isn't it? If someone can't have something because there isn't transportation, they can't have it, the same as if it doesn't exist.
    Yes and no. What you're saying is factually true, but in practice, it's less "transportation doesn't exist" and more an issue of "Can we get people to agree to let it be transported?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Given that I've just caught up on about two pages of this going back and forth, with no discernable advancement, I feel like it may just be about time to throw in the towel and move on to something else.


    Like plans. Anyone have any fun plans coming up? I'd really like to hope that other people are able to do more than just live inside a room and go to work like I do.
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    FINISHED IT WITH A DAY TO GO! Granted, there's still the edging and 3,000 lbs of rubber mulch to put down, but the main structure is complete.

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    My dad was in Louisiana working to fix the downed power infrastructure for the last couple weeks and he finally got back today, so I’m gonna go back to the parents house to visit. So that’s neat.

    My brother and I are planning on going to vermont week after Thanksgiving with some friends to snowboard. I’ve been doing that for a few years. It’s fun, totally recommend trying snowboarding or skiing to anyone even remotely interested in it.

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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
    Like plans. Anyone have any fun plans coming up? I'd really like to hope that other people are able to do more than just live inside a room and go to work like I do.
    Let's see....

    My mom's coming to visit in a few weeks. She lives on the other side of the country, so I don't get to see her often. Definitely looking forward to that.

    Gathering ideas for running a Paranoia one-shot sometime in the next month or two. Our current group is kinda small, though, and I think Paranoia works best with a slightly bigger group (gotta embrace the chaos), so I might go digging for extra players among my extended friend group.

    I've got some minis I need to paint, but I need to actually go out and get the colors of paint I need (and more primer).

    New M:tG set pre-release event is this weekend, which should be fun. No cards in particular I'm excited for, but my wife is hyped about the new Wrenn planeswalker.
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  28. - Top - End - #1438
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Im probably going to be cursing Penn State this weekend, because theres a home football game and i work in retail, and the students are just... the absolute worst.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  29. - Top - End - #1439
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    FINISHED IT WITH A DAY TO GO! Granted, there's still the edging and 3,000 lbs of rubber mulch to put down, but the main structure is complete.

    Spoiler: BOOYAKASHA
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    Oh, very nice, man!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel View Post
    Let's see....

    My mom's coming to visit in a few weeks. She lives on the other side of the country, so I don't get to see her often. Definitely looking forward to that.

    Gathering ideas for running a Paranoia one-shot sometime in the next month or two. Our current group is kinda small, though, and I think Paranoia works best with a slightly bigger group (gotta embrace the chaos), so I might go digging for extra players among my extended friend group.

    I've got some minis I need to paint, but I need to actually go out and get the colors of paint I need (and more primer).

    New M:tG set pre-release event is this weekend, which should be fun. No cards in particular I'm excited for, but my wife is hyped about the new Wrenn planeswalker.
    Ooh, all of those sound pretty good. Also, clearly you just have an extra character in paranoia that the group controls "together".
    The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.

    01001110011001010111001001100100

  30. - Top - End - #1440
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    Default Re: Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
    Oh, very nice, man!!!
    The ground floor has a little kitchen area with a stove that has flame stickers you can turn do it can be on or off, a power setting dial that clicks, and a sink with clicky hot and cold knobs. There's a utensil hangar that holds two frying pansand a spatula, and on the side there's a bar at the big window along with a chalkboard for writing down the menu, or anything else one can write down.

    If I weren't a stickler for relative personal privacy on here, I would absolutely be showing y'all my little cutie patootie having a blast in there, cooking food, turning the stove off, putting his dishes up, and washing his hands all before getting the pans right back down and turning the stove back on immediately. Every part of that thing he could play with he did play with as soon as we finished building that part. He's been having a fun three days while daddy, mommy, and friend worked in the rain.

    Worth it, though.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
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    Spoiler: Come down with fire
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    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
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    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
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    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

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