Old Dragonwrought Kobold = Epic PrC access pre-level 21?

[Gruftzwerg]

Actually, Races of the Dragon, where dragonwrought kobold appears, updates the 'all true dragons' list from Draconomicon and does not list dragonwrought kobold. Starting on page 69, Races of the Dragon lists every true dragon in D&D (but not dragonwrought kobold). This is the same publication.
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Draconomicon makes it clear from the outset that it the publication concerns itself with true dragons. The age categories are dragon age categories, not other categories. Dragonwrought kobolds keep their kobold racial traits, including the kobold age categories. RAW doesn't mean ignoring clearly stated context.



Attempting to extrapolate information based on 'age categories' is the only way that you can claim that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. I am just trying to hold to you consistency.



The RAW and RAI are in accord.

Nowhere in Races of the Dragon is it stated that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. Even a list in the same publication leaves them out.

I never claimed that DWK would be their own TD variety and never did the feat do that. They are related to a TD kind and their type gets changed to dragon. Which then enforces you to designate em into one of the two dragon categories. It is irrelevant if they are their own TD variety or not to solve the question if they are TD or not.

Nothing gives you the permission to further narrow the requirements presented when you go by RAW. Not even context. That would be RAI. RAW, you take the text as it is, with the keywords as they are presented and don't read other keywords into them. Cause all those things would be covered by RAI and not by RAW. There is a hard line between those two.

And no, I didn't extrapolated any info for my argumentation. I took the text as presented without any alterations due to context. Because I wanted to make a RAW based argument.

As said, if we talk about RAI, I am totally joining your point of view, but RAW is its own discipline.


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Actually, dragonwrought kobolds do not advance through age categories. There is no power increase. Have a look.

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Where does the dragonwrought kobold advance through those age categories? It even as it progresses through its lifecycle, it gains nothing. All true dragons advance at each age category via advancing HD, getting more abilities, size, and so on. It is spelled out in Draconomicon. Look at the dragonwrought kobold. It gets nothing for advancing through age categories. Only the aging affects matter, and there are only three of them.

First note that it is the regular word "advance" and not "Advancement". And basically every Kobold, even non DWK, "advance" through their "Age Categories". The difference between a regular Kobold and the DWK is, that the DWK is a dragon (thus needs to be either a TD or a lesser dragon) and has pure mental stat gains (without penalties) as Aging Effect. This qualifies him as increasing in power, since it is an undefined term and as such any pure power increase counts. Finally the requirement for the power doesn't need to come from the Age Categories, the requirement is just bound to getting older (which qualifies Aging Effects). Finally, if you are looking for "Advancement", see all my other replies in this thread, regarding Draconomicon page 144 "Other True Dragons". The DM is supposed to create an Advancement table for the DWK (as he sees it fit).

[JoeNapalm]

DWK are great without trying to leverage Draconomicon and True Dragon status.

Attempting to treat them as if they were straight up tiny Smaug with True Dragon only just makes them harder to convince any sane DM to allow them at the table.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[loky1109]

And basically every Kobold, even non DWK, "advance" through their "Age Categories".

This isn't true. Wyrmling to old and Very old to Ancient they don't. Old to Very old and Wyrm to Greate wyrm seems to yes, but Old aging effect comes in the middle Ancient. This means there are no direct link between Age Categories and stat improvements.

[Darg]

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."

Improving Monsters

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

Templates

Both intelligent and nonintelligent creatures with an unusual heritage or an inflicted change in their essential nature may be modified with a template. Templates usually result in tougher monsters with capabilities that differ from those of their common kin.

Each of these three methods for improving monsters is discussed in more detail below.

Advancing through age categories is referencing the fact that true dragons advance through age categories.

All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they
age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)

Type: Dragon (Water)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 3; very young 4; young 5; juvenile 7; young adult 9; adult 11; mature adult 14; old 16; very old 18; ancient 19; wyrm 20; great wyrm 22
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: Wyrmling 5-6 HD; very young 8-9 HD; young 11-12 HD; juvenile 14-15 HD; young adult 17-18 HD; adult 20-21 HD; mature adult 23-24 HD; old 26-27 HD; very old 29-30 HD; ancient 32-33 HD; wyrm 35-36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +3; very young +3; young +3; juvenile +4; others —

This is the same for every one of the true dragons except for DWK.

[Remuko]

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

[Gruftzwerg]

DWK are great without trying to leverage Draconomicon and True Dragon status.

Attempting to treat them as if they were straight up tiny Smaug with True Dragon only just makes them harder to convince any sane DM to allow them at the table.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

I agree that most tables never attempt to play at such optimization lvls, so I would never advice experienced players to play at such a lvl. But that doesn't mean that nobody does. In fact, from time to time, we have a few posters which seem to play more frequently at higher optimization lvls.

This isn't true. Wyrmling to old and Very old to Ancient they don't. Old to Very old and Wyrm to Greate wyrm seems to yes, but Old aging effect comes in the middle Ancient. This means there are no direct link between Age Categories and stat improvements.

The requirement is "become more powerful as they grow older" and isn't linked/bound to the Age Categories. The pure mental gains from Aging Effects that DWK get qualify for that without any issues.

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."



Advancing through age categories is referencing the fact that true dragons advance through age categories.





This is the same for every one of the true dragons except for DWK.

DWK ain't a variety by themselves and are a "specific exception" to become a dragon. Further the DWK feat links you (by your ancestors) to a TD type. It would be wrong to mention DWK in any TD list since they aren't their own variety. A DWK can't take another DWK as his dragon type for this DWK feat (common sense reasoning behind this imho that if 2 DWK breed together they don't get automatically a DWK offspring.) Putting an exception into a general list is logically totally wrong. As such, only the requirements on Draconomicon page 4 are relevant to decide if a DWK is a TD or a lesser one.

And as said multiple times on this thread:
Advancement can't be a requirement for TD, if all TD who don't have it, get it for free from the DM. See Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". This is a 100% proof. You can't require it and then say those who don't have it get it from the DM. The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.


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Really, I have repeated this undeniable argument several times in this thread now and it is getting a lil annoying. You can't require something and than give it for free for all TD who don't have it. That is just utter BS (sorry, but I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and the argument gets totally ignored. "Stop mixing advance and Advancement" we have 100% proof that this is not the chase here (for draconomicon page 4)

[redking]

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

Dragonwrought kobold is never called a true dragon in Races of the Dragon. Draconomicon goes into length describing what a true dragon is, and these kobolds accord with none of the descriptions.

{Scrubbed}

Draconomicon describes the traits of true dragons repeatedly. Dragonwrought kobold doesn't meet any of them. "You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". - Dragonwrought kobold feat.

Keen senses description from page 136 of Draconomicon.

{Scrubbed}

Keen Senses (Ex)
A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

'Dragon' in Draconomicon is shorthand for 'true dragon', as the book tells you in the introduction.

"Lesser dragons can’t see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf, but simply having both forms of vision makes them the best at spotting hidden foes and the like". Dragonwrought kobolds "have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision", no better than dwarf, half-orc, elf or half-elf. True dragons have low light vision and "darkvision out to 120 feet". True dragons can see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf. Dragonwrought kobold cannot.

Not a true dragon.

[Gruftzwerg]

Please. Just stop.

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Draconomicon describes the traits of true dragons repeatedly. Dragonwrought kobold doesn't meet any of them. "You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". - Dragonwrought kobold feat.

Keen senses description from page 136 of Draconomicon.

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'Dragon' in Draconomicon is shorthand for 'true dragon', as it the book tells you in the introduction.

"Lesser dragons can’t see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf, but simply having both forms of vision makes them the best at spotting hidden foes and the like". Dragonwrought kobolds "have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". True dragons have low light vision and "darkvision out to 120 feet". True dragons can see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf. Dragonwrought kobold cannot.

Not a true dragon.

Specific Trumps General. The DWK feat may create specific exceptions for its niche. As such, a general rule (e.g. Keen Senses) that gets trumped by a specific rule (DWK feat) can't be relevant to determine if DWK are TD or not. The terms TD and lesser get defined on draconomicon page 4.

And while many TD share similar traits, they still aren't requirements to determine if a dragon is TD or not. Consistency doesn't make new rules. At least not when we talk about RAW (rules as written). If you want to talks about designer intentions (RAI), that may be a totally valid argument. (PS: I'm not really sure if you want to make claims for RAW or RAI here, but I tried to address both options as you see).

[loky1109]

The requirement is "become more powerful as they grow older" and isn't linked/bound to the Age Categories. The pure mental gains from Aging Effects that DWK get qualify for that without any issues.

So half-dragon monks-17 and druids-15 are counts, too.

Advancement can't be a requirement for TD

This isn't requirement, this is indication.

The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.

We need examples. If we talk about EAW.

and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons.

Why aren't?

[redking]

Specific Trumps General. The DWK feat may create specific exceptions for its niche. As such, a general rule (e.g. Keen Senses) that gets trumped by a specific rule (DWK feat) can't be relevant to determine if DWK are TD or not. The terms TD and lesser get defined on draconomicon page 4.

I reproduced the dragonwrought feat upthread. Dragonwrought kobolds are not called 'true dragons'. They get the dragon type, then what they get from that type is explicitly described in the feat. There is no specific rule calling out dragonwrought kobolds as true dragons.

[Darg]

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

Except they aren't a dragon. They are a kobold. They have the dragon type, but they are still a kobold. Nothing says that DWKs are not lesser dragons. Kobold age categories are fluff and have no mechanical relevance. Kobold characters do not advance through age categories.

DWK ain't a variety by themselves and are a "specific exception" to become a dragon. Further the DWK feat links you (by your ancestors) to a TD type. It would be wrong to mention DWK in any TD list since they aren't their own variety. A DWK can't take another DWK as his dragon type for this DWK feat (common sense reasoning behind this imho that if 2 DWK breed together they don't get automatically a DWK offspring.) Putting an exception into a general list is logically totally wrong. As such, only the requirements on Draconomicon page 4 are relevant to decide if a DWK is a TD or a lesser one.

And as said multiple times on this thread:
Advancement can't be a requirement for TD, if all TD who don't have it, get it for free from the DM. See Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". This is a 100% proof. You can't require it and then say those who don't have it get it from the DM. The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.


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Really, I have repeated this undeniable argument several times in this thread now and it is getting a lil annoying. You can't require something and than give it for free for all TD who don't have it. That is just utter BS (sorry, but I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and the argument gets totally ignored. "Stop mixing advance and Advancement" we have 100% proof that this is not the chase here (for draconomicon page 4)

Read my quote again. The rules for monster advancement use the word advance to tell you how they improve. It is perfectly valid. You say you have proof to the contrary, and it might be true for you, but for the rest of us mortals who cannot understand the ways of gods (WotC) it heavily skews it toward the other direction.

Pg 144 of Draconomicon has already been refuted. It says to use the information found on table 3-22 to create a table like 3-21. DWK is not in table 3-22 and therefore has no relevance to pg 144. In fact pg 144 heavily supports DWK not being a true dragon:

Lesser Dragon PCs
Using another creature of the dragon type as a player character is rather less complicated than using a true dragon. Such a creature has a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age, so after the character begins play there is no reason to advance the character as a monster again.

Not only does the draconomicon mention that lesser dragons do not advance through age categories, it also says they have no built-in progression due to age.

Unless a book explicitly tells us a DWK is a TD, it cannot be a true dragon as possession of age categories isn't enough. They must have character advancement/progression through these age categories which a DWK does not.

[Malphegor]

Didn’t OP start this thread with the caveat ‘assuming it works’? Surely all this arguing on whether it does or not, as ever with DWK, is off-topic for what they’re asking?

[redking]

Didn’t OP start this thread with the caveat ‘assuming it works’? Surely all this arguing on whether it does or not, as ever with DWK, is off-topic for what they’re asking?

The OP's question was answered on the first page. Even if you accept that dragonwroght kobolds can take epic feats based on old dragons (which are always more than 21 RHD) being able to take epic feats, an epic prestige class requires an epic character. So the answer was no, dragonwrought kobold cannot enter an epic prestige class before epic.

The question necessarily raised ancillary issues of what the dragonwrought kobold can actually do.

[Thurbane]

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