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    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII


    Welcome back to the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer Edition! This is a pretty solid ingredient, I think, but you're still going to have to make some choices and I can't wait to see where you take this.

    The form of this challenge is to take a particular D&D 3.5 game element (our "secret ingredient," or SI) and turn it into a functional E6 build, which must feature the SI as heavily as possible. (The only hard rule about this is that you must take at least one level—where applicable—in the SI, though judges are encouraged to look favorably on builds that take as many levels as possible in said SI or that otherwise use it as heavily as possible.) Your final build submission should consist of your 6 regular levels and your first 10 epic bonus feats, though providing a snapshot at earlier points through the progression is heartily encouraged. Entries are to be PM'd to the Chair (that would be me!), and they will be posted anonymously; our volunteer judges will then grade each build on a 1-5 point scale in four categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the Secret Ingredient. The builds with the highest three scores will be awarded medals, with the Honorable Mention award going to the non-medaling build that the Chair likes best and/or that receives the most votes for HM in this thread. (HM may not always be awarded, particularly if the number of builds is very small.) And then we all have cake!*

    *Note: You must provide your own cake.

    This is basically like the regular Iron Chef, and let's be brutally honest with ourselves here: this isn't a gargantuan community, and we basically all know what we're talking about at this point. Make the builds, send 'em in, post some scores, and have fun. If you've got questions, lemme know. Still, let's lay out a few rules!
    • Cooking Time: Builds must be submitted via PM to the Chair by 4:59 PM GMT - 9 on Monday, Aug 02, 2021 (1:59 AM GMT on Tuesday, Aug 03). The reveal shall be on the first evening the Chair has free following the cooking deadline, which is hoped to be that evening or the immediately subsequent one—I'll do my best, anyway. Judging is then encouraged to go as quickly as possible; if multiple judges volunteer, we'll set about a two-week window, but if we only get one judge, we'll try to wrap up as soon as possible after that judge presents scores. (I will admit that the deadline time may not be an exact science, but don't hide from me and we'll probably be cool.)
    • Kitchen: Let's break this one down a bit.

      Spoiler: Let's talk about sources
      Show

      • ALLOWED: Almost all D&D 3.5 material published by WotC: Core, Completes, monster books, Races Of books, alternate power source books (Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, etc.), Spell Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Eberron material, Forgotten Realms material, and other WotC-published 3.5 material. (This list is NOT exhaustive and there are many other legal books that I did not mention by name!)
      • ALLOWED: Material from the 3.5 archives of the Wizards of the Coast website (including, but not limited to, the Mind's Eye articles). If you use it, link it.
      • ALLOWED: Official errata from WotC. If you're relying on this in a material fashion, it's a good idea to link it and to discuss it.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Unofficial errata, including "class fixes" (regardless of the source, including from the original author if not published in a WotC book) or fan-created content.
      • ALLOWED: Unupdated WotC-published 3.0 material (e.g., Sword and Fist, Masters of the Wild, etc.) except for 3.0 psionics. No 3.0 psionics allowed. If you are using 3.0 material, use the general-purpose skill updates (Wilderness Lore becomes Survival, Innuendo becomes Bluff, etc.) and the general-purpose rules updates (spells with a casting time of "1 action" become "1 standard action," etc.) when appropriate.
      • NOT ALLOWED: 3.0 material for which a direct 3.5 update exists. Use the updated material instead.
      • ALLOWED: Dragon Compendium and its errata.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Content from Dragon Magazine and/or Dungeon Magazine unless said content appears in an otherwise allowed source.
      • ALLOWED: Oriental Adventures, including the 3.5 update to Oriental Adventures from Dragon Magazine #318. This is a specific exception to the "no Dragon" rule!
      • NOT ALLOWED: Pathfinder content, regardless of whether it is "D&D 3.5 OGL" or not. If it didn't come from WotC, we don't want it.
      • ALLOWED: From Unearthed Arcana: racial paragon classes, alternate class features/variant classes, spelltouched feats, and variant races. (Traits and flaws are technically legal, but traits warrant a -0.5 point penalty in Elegance, and flaws warrant a -1 penalty in Elegance.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Other Unearthed Arcana content, including (but not limited to) bloodlines, LA buyoff, fractional BAB/saves, alternate casting systems, alternate skill systems, item familiars, prestigious character classes, generic classes, gestalt, etc. When you're wondering if UA content is allowed, err on the side of caution and don't mess around with it.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Leadership, regardless of source. Game elements functionally equivalent to Leadership (including, but not limited to, Dragon Cohort, Undead Leadership, and Thrallherd) are similarly banned. (Familiars, Improved Familiar, animal companions, Wild Cohort, psicrystals, elemental envoys, and similar game elements are allowed, and they are not considered to be "Leadership." If the difference isn't obvious, feel free to contact the Chair with specific questions.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Third-party content, homebrew, or other non-WotC content.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook. Just because you're "epic" in E6 after 6th level doesn't mean that you're that kind of epic.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Any race or template with a level adjustment other than +0. (Or any other source of LA other than a race or template, if any such things exist.) However, as a specific exception for round 26, see below.
      • NOT ALLOWED: For our judges: penalizing solely based on legal sources used, regardless of whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between. If the material is legal, then it doesn't matter how many or how few books it came out of.
      • ALLOWED: Also for our judges: penalizing for using a source (other than material in Core; don't be vindictive about genuinely obvious stuff) that isn't listed in the build writeup. The chef may choose to present the sources in-line with the text, in a consolidated source list, or somewhere else, but if the source is listed (and is otherwise legal), it counts. If the source is not listed, you may choose to penalize for that.

      If you have questions about anything in this section (or hell, in this ruleset), feel free to ask the Chair.
    • Character Creation: 32 point buy is assumed. For the purposes of this contest, Level Adjustment greater than +0 is banned. (This may be revised at a later point, but I don't feel that the E6 LA rules are conducive to fun in the context of this contest.) No more than two entries per chef per contest, please; if you submit two builds and somehow are so overcome with inspiration for a third that you can't help yourself, PM me and tell me which two you care about the most.
    • Highlighted because of past issues: It is not enough for your build to end with a level adjustment of +0. You must be +0 from start to finish. No using ANY build elements with a level adjustment above +0, even if they then get mitigated or reduced somehow. However, note that a special exception is in place for round 26...
    • Speculation: Please do not post any form of speculation before the reveal. Just don't do it, guys. It's not cool. This means NOT posting any of the following or anything substantially similar: what you think is going to be common, significant elements of your planned build or of other potential builds, or anything else that could directly influence someone else's build choices for good or for ill. (It's acceptable to ask for rules clarifications as appropriate, but try to avoid tipping your hand too much.) Speculation is bad because it can discourage people from posting builds and can also "taint the judging pool" when it comes to Originality, so please just try to be aware of how other people might react to your speculation.
    • E6: Here's how E6 works for the purposes of this contest. Build your character normally for the first six levels. After you reach level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining bonus feats every time you would gain 5,000 XP. Since we aren't actually tracking XP, you'll basically list your first ten epic bonus feats in the order that you take them, and we think of them as being kind of like levels. We will not use the LA-equals-reduced-point-buy rules, instead preferring to just ban races with LA, at least for now. We will not use the "capstone feats"; all feats that you take must be normal legal 3.5 feats, not homebrew E6 ones. You may not use the Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook, though if for some reason there are non-Epic feats from the ELH that you qualify for, you may take those. (I don't think there are any, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong.) It is up to the discretion of each judge whether this is a "hard E6" (magic above 3rd level spells is simply beyond mortal reach, items that have a listed CL above 6th are just plain not available, etc.) or a "soft E6" (if you can somehow get the magic on your character, it's yours, regardless of level), though I honestly don't expect it to come up. Don't go crazy with making assumptions about items and we probably won't have to find out.
    • Presentation: Please use the table found below in the spoiler. List your epic bonus feats (in clear order) after the table. If you find a clever way of formatting that that isn't annoying and that doesn't break anything, have fun; if it's portable, I may steal it for the next round. When sending your build or any disputes to the Chair, clearly include your build's name in the subject of the PM, and please present your build exactly as you want the Chair to copy and paste it into the thread.
      If you're using a picture, cite the source and follow any relevant citation rules. Because we have had issues with this in the past, when listing your skills, please make it very clear how many ranks you have at each level. There are multiple ways to do this and we do not wish to cramp anyone's individual style by dictating exactly how this must look, but make sure that somewhere in your entry there's an explanation of how many actual skill ranks you have. It's still fine to list total skill bonuses, if that's your style, but don't only list bonuses; make sure that there is a clear listing somewhere of your ranks alone.
      Spoiler
      Show
      Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
      1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      Code for the table:
      Spoiler
      Show
      [TABLE="class: head alt1 alt2"]
      [TR]
      [TH][B]Level[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Class[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Fort Save[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Ref Save[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Will Save[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Skills[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Feats[/B][/TH]
      [TH][B]Class Features[/B][/TH]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]1st[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]2nd[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]3rd[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]4th[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]5th[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]6th[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Level[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]+x[/TD]
      [TD]Skills[/TD]
      [TD]Feats[/TD]
      [TD]New Class Abilities[/TD]
      [/TR]
      [/TABLE]
    • Contest houserules: Nearly the same as the main contest's rules here: all creatures are proficient with natural weapons they have or may acquire, bonus feats that are explicitly granted without meeting prereqs are usable even without those prereqs, and feats that affect which skills are class skills for you and/or how you spend your skill points (Able Learner, Martial Study, Truename Training, Apprentice, etc.) apply immediately at the level at which you take them (even though you normally spend skill points before taking a feat). When taking Open Minded as an epic feat, any skill that has ever been a class skill for you (including through your class, your race, your feats, or similar game elements, though please don't muck around with retroactively making something stop being a class skill for some stupid reason) is a class skill when determining how the 5 granted skill points may be spent. All usual rules about HD-related skill caps apply. When taking Open Minded as a non-epic feat, treat it as normal; the class skills of the class you took at the level you gained Open Minded (plus race, feats, etc.) are your class skills for those skill points, similar to if Open Minded's skill points came straight from your class.
    • Judging guidelines: The minimum score in a category is 1, and the maximum is 5 (except in high-Originality rounds, wherein the maximum in Originality is 10). Judges are expected to be fair, consistent, and open-minded, and they are expected to make a good-faith effort to engage with any reasonable disputes that arise, especially when RAW is in question. That said, contestants are asked to not dispute more than necessary; let's do everything in good faith and really only dispute when a judge is being inconsistent, being unfair, or is otherwise grossly misinterpreting a build.
      Judges may not penalize Originality solely because a build is a tribute or homage to an existing creative work (in or out of D&D canon; note that this is not the same thing as penalizing Originality for using well-known optimization tactics), nor may judges penalize based solely on sources used (whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between, you should judge the build elements and how they work together rather than what book or what books they came out of, as long as those books are legal for this contest and are cited in the entry).
      As with the main contest, we will follow the "One Mistake, One Penalty" guideline, and it is very important that the judges adhere to it. I'm going to directly copy and paste this from the main thread, and hopefully the original author won't mind too much:
      Spoiler
      Show
      Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

      Non-exhaustive list of examples:

      Skills
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
      • Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
      • Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


      Not allowed:
      • Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

      Prereqs
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
      • Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
      • Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
      • Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


      Not Allowed:
      • "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
      • Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes

      Other general things that are no longer allowed:
      • Penalising because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
      • Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalise if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.


      Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.
    • Dispute guidelines (NEW, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION): Disputing is long, annoying, and emotional. It's also sometimes necessary, but it's often not actually something that makes everyone have more fun. Let's go into a little more detail here.
      Spoiler
      Show
      • Do NOT dispute to make an argument that goes fundamentally beyond what's in your write-up. It is the responsibility of the chef to make sure that the write-up is complete and contains their best arguments for what the build does and why it's awesome. If you didn't explain your tactics well or didn't spell out something that a judge misses, just do better next time. Don't drag it out after the fact.
      • Do NOT dispute just to be clever or witty or cheeky. Please. We're all adults here and so I assume you know what that means. Don't treat the build as a setup and your oh-so-clever dispute as the punchline. It's not as funny as it is in your head. Trust me. I've been down that road.
      • Do NOT dispute just to say "oh yeah, my bad, I missed that" or some equivalent. If you're not directly challenging the judge, save the commentary until after the reveal. I 100% get that the urge to respond to commentary is very strong, but type it out and sit on it for a while if you've gotta.
      • Do NOT dispute just to try to wheedle more points out of the judge. Note that this is different from saying that the judge is being truly unfair or is being truly wrong by black-and-white RAW. A dispute is NOT the place to try to scrape together a few last quarter-points. If you didn't put it in your write-up, that's on you. This also means that a dispute is really not the place to have long back-and-forth tit-for-tat arguments. That's a surefire way to get people grumpy. It's a contest on a D&D board, guys, not the results of a federal election.
      • Do NOT dispute to tear down another build. That's just plain not cool. If you entered the contest, it's not on you to judge the other builds.
      • DO dispute if the judge is being blatantly biased by giving you a substantially different ruling on a build element compared to another chef who used the same build element in nearly the same way. (Note that position in a build may affect if you're using that element in "nearly the same way" or not.) Please reserve this for the truly blatant examples. I mean it. Remember, it's the contestant's responsibility to make their best argument in the original write-up.
      • DO dispute if the judge is actively going against the contest rules. Note that there are relatively few ways in which a judge can go against contest rules (we intentionally give very wide discretion to our judges), but examples include truly breaking One Mistake One Penalty, penalizing just because of number of sources of (legal) material, and so on.
      • DO dispute if the judge is clearly ignoring unambiguous RAW. Note that this is for unambiguous RAW; if the RAW is shady and you're making an argument that isn't completely clear and that it wouldn't be strange for a GM to frown on, the judge has every right to frown on it as well. (You generally know when you're indulging in shady RAW. Be mature about this.) But if the judge is saying you didn't hit a prereq that you clearly did hit (and included in your write-up!), saying you can't do something that the plain text of the ability says you can do, or anything like that, by all means, call 'em out.
      • Do NOT dispute if the judge doesn't agree with your interpretation of ambiguous RAW. Yes, this is a retread of the previous bullet point; this is that important. If you're relying on ambiguous RAW, it's on you to lay out clearly why it should work the way you want it to work. Again, be mature and act in good faith: you really know when you're pushing things like this. If they don't like it, they don't like it. Move on.


      Disputing is a privilege, not a right. In the Chair's sole discretion, disputes that do not meet these guidelines and/or that do not seem to be offered in good faith may be suppressed. The Chair reserves the right to choose to post all, some, or none of a dispute if appropriate.

    • Other bits and bobs: If there's something major and relevant I haven't mentioned, assume that the way I handle it will probably be the same as the main contest unless stated otherwise or unless doing so would be an obviously absurd result. If you've got questions, I'll give you answers.



    This round's secret ingredient:
    The PSYCHIC WARRIOR, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook!

    Allez Optimizer!




    The Builds:

    Name Stub J1 ciopo J2 MinimanMidget Total Rank Chef
    Talar Waymin LN lesser zenythri psychic warrior 4 / war mind 2 16.65 12.0 28.65 6th Quentinas
    Starblossom ?? Wild elf ranger 2 / psychic warrior 4 15.2 12.0 27.2 7th Birchy
    The Lepidopterist TN Tarmak (Vaymin) psychic warrior 6 17.8 16.0 33.8 1st, gold Daremetoidareyou
    Kate CG illumian psychic warrior 5 / barbarian 1 16.9 15.25 32.15 2nd, silver AsuraKyoko
    Kal Arvoreen LG glimmerskin halfling monk 1 / psychic warrior 4 / scout 1 15.5 14.0 29.5 5th Mattie_p
    Hypnotoad TN anthropomorphic amphibious toad psychic warrior 6 15.0 14.75 29.75 4th Daremetoidareyou
    Hophit LG dragonborn buomman monk 2 / psychic warrior 4 16.9 13.5 30.4 3rd, bronze Quentinas

    Last edited by Zaq; 2021-08-17 at 12:38 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Here's a few gentle recommendations that are intended to improve scores and make things easier for the judges. As always, THE RECOMMENDATIONS IN THIS POST ARE NOT RULES. Judges and contestants are free to honor them or ignore them; my intent here is only to help, and NONE of what I'm saying here is required. (That said, did you see the new dispute guidelines? Those ARE rules, so please go read them. And I'm even going to be better about enforcing them this time.)

    Recommendations:
    • Double-check ALL of your prereqs. Every. Single. One. Feats, PrCs, whatever. You might even go so far as to spell out when you meet each one, but again, that's not a requirement. But one of the single biggest causes of point loss is failure to meet prereqs.
    • Tell the judges what's cool about your build! You spent hours or days on this (y'know, probably) and know it inside and out, but the judges are getting a whole bunch of these dishes all at once and don't know the build history of each one. You're significantly more likely to score well if you spell out exactly what makes you awesome than if you try to just let it stand on its own.
    • Make it easy to read! Skill tables are awful, though they're an incredibly necessary evil. Full Monster Manual-style statblocks are occasionally useful but are also insanely dense if not formatted well. Judges are very likely to miss something if you aren't careful with how you present your info. Remember that judging takes a lot of time, energy, and focus, so don't rely on the judge being willing/able to decode something in order to see what makes you interesting!
    • Be memorable. Remember that we've all seen these ingredients used at least once before. What makes you different?


    The psywar is a beloved class and I honestly expect to see a pretty decent variety even without making this a high-Originality round. It's pretty wide-open, but it's still limited enough that you should be able to differentiate yourselves on a mechanical level by the choices you make. Watch those power points (you aren't unlimited!) and watch your action economy, but I'm sure we'll see some interesting stuff as you make your will reality!
    Last edited by Zaq; 2021-07-19 at 10:41 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Oh, just cleaned out my inbox, too, so if you just tried to send me something, go ahead and retry!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Bear mountains! (Alps)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Ooooh psychic warrior

    this is hard in the sense that it's too easy, in the "d'uh", but what's a "d'uh" for me likely isn't a "d'uh" for everybody else, so I'm looking forward to see some new stuff.

    if I'm not submitting builds, I'll try my hand in judging this time around, but I'ìll probably submit builds

    question for the chair: is it a faux pax to post what my judging criteria would be, if I end up submitting entries instead?
    Last edited by ciopo; 2021-07-19 at 01:10 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Nah, that's no big deal, as long as you're not intentionally trying to mislead anyone.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
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    Bear mountains! (Alps)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Tell you what, I commit to judging!

    My criterias:

    Originality
    starts at 3,
    +/- 0.5 for race choice
    +/- 0.5 for spells/powers/manouvers/features choices
    +/- 0.5 for feats choices
    +/- 0.5 for class(es) choices
    all of those are on scale of two factors : originality in regard to common optimization, and originality relative on the contest entries. A "common sense" common choice will be a neutral 0, not a penalty.
    Bonus originality may be given for novelty in regard to build theme (mechanically)
    I generally don't care much about story, but there may be some bonus here if there is any. Never a penalty for no story however, not from me ^^


    Power starts at 3,
    +/- 0.5 for survivability
    +/- 0.5 for lethality
    +/- 0.5 for utility and assorted sundries
    +/- X for how it compares to how I would build a character filling the same role and tier with a similar class distribution
    variable bonus if your tactical writeup includes spells/powers/manouvers at the given level, since you're making it easier for me to make a comparison
    I will assume the entry will only have "generic big 6 items" unless you write otherwise. I do not penalize for mentioning items, most likely I will actually give some small bonus since you will compare better to my own mock writeup. (budget : ECL8 WBL for E6)
    CAVEAT : if a somewhat obscure item is the lynchpin of the build, there will be a penalty for "reliance"

    Elegance starts at 5,
    -0.10 for multiclass penalty, this is cumulative per level and per penalty amount (note : epic feats are "a level" in this regard, since it costs xp to get them)
    variable penalty for missing prerequisites, generally from 0.25 to 1
    variable penalty for "shady raw shenanigans", generally from 0.5 to 2
    possible bonus if you address "hidden" fluff prerequisites
    no penalty for dips

    uotSI (E6) starts at 3,
    0.25 penalty for each level of uotSI not taken
    variable penalty/bonus for the adherence to the concept/niche of the uotSI, detailed metric will be posted after the builds are out. The range of this value can be of up to +/- 3 split in multiple areas.
    CAVEAT : no uotSI levels or failure to qualify for it is fiat minimum score


    I am sure I forgot something, so these aren't set in stones and I reserve the right to give bonus points or penalties if something else comes up and yadda yadda yadda, I will try my best to be fair and even handed
    Last edited by ciopo; 2021-07-20 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    Tell you what, I commit to judging!

    My criterias:

    Originality starts at 3,
    +/- 0.5 for race choice
    +/- 0.5 for spells/powers/manouvers/features choices
    +/- 0.5 for feats choices
    +/- 0.5 for class(es) choices
    all of those are on scale of two factors : originality in regard to common optimization, and originality relative on the contest entries. A "common sense" common choice will be a neutral 0, not a penalty.
    Bonus originality may be given for novelty in regard to build theme (mechanically)
    I generally don't care much about story, but there may be some bonus here if there is any. Never a penalty for no story however, not from me ^^


    Power starts at 3,
    +/- 0.5 for survivability
    +/- 0.5 for lethality
    +/- 0.5 for utility and assorted sundries
    +/- X for how it compares to how I would build a character filling the same role and tier with a similar class distribution
    variable bonus if your tactical writeup includes spells/powers/manouvers at the given level, since you're making it easier for me to make a comparison

    Elegance starts at 5,
    -0.10 for multiclass penalty, this is cumulative per level and per penalty amount (note : epic feats are "a level" in this regard, since it costs xp to get them)
    variable penalty for missing prerequisites, generally from 0.25 to 1
    variable penalty for "shady raw shenanigans", generally from 0.5 to 2
    possible bonus if you address "hidden" fluff prerequisites
    no penalty for dips

    uotSI (E6) starts at 0,
    0.25 points per level taken in the uotSI
    variable bonus for the adherence to the concept/niche of the uotSI


    I am sure I forgot something, so these aren't set in stones and I reserve the right to give bonus points or penalties if something else comes up and yadda yadda yadda, I will try my best to be fair and even handed
    I know you are the judge , but i would suggest boosting that 0.25 points as it's not that we can have so many levels (the maximum one could gain is 1.5) , and the variable bonus to the adherence to a class similar to a figher is something...hard to define , but obviously this is what I think (in a competition where the uotSI would be 10 levels the 0.25 would be perfect probably) . For example if one in the monk round make a better monk without using a monk (it can't be done I know this is only an example) he would gain at maximum more than a full monk without so much adherence
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
    Show
    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Hello Quentinas, thanks for the feedback.

    The 0.25 is calibrated for E6 already, if this was a normal IC with a 10 level PrC as the uotSI, I'd assign 0.15 per level of outSI.

    This is precisely for the purpose of not discouraging too much making "that same concept but using different classes" adherence to "the concept" is the meat of the points here.

    I am not elaborating on what I think the concept is in regard to this round here because I don't want to unduly influence the builds.

    I can be convinced otherwise but I feel 1.5 points for staying in class levels is about okay for E6.

    Maybe it'd be easier to say that it starts at 5, 0.25 penalty for each class level not taken, then variable bonus/penalties for sticking/not sticking to "the concept"?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    Hello Quentinas, thanks for the feedback.

    The 0.25 is calibrated for E6 already, if this was a normal IC with a 10 level PrC as the uotSI, I'd assign 0.15 per level of outSI.

    This is precisely for the purpose of not discouraging too much making "that same concept but using different classes" adherence to "the concept" is the meat of the points here.

    I am not elaborating on what I think the concept is in regard to this round here because I don't want to unduly influence the builds.

    I can be convinced otherwise but I feel 1.5 points for staying in class levels is about okay for E6.

    Maybe it'd be easier to say that it starts at 5, 0.25 penalty for each class level not taken, then variable bonus/penalties for sticking/not sticking to "the concept"?
    Maybe I'm wrong but generally I think these contest where we have a class to be "optimize this class" and not "doing something optimized similar to this class" , so an idea could be start at 3 penalty for missing class levels bonus for sticking to the concept and malus for not sticking? It's only an idea , and I don't know how many round you have judged , I didn't judge so much so it could be only an impression created by inexperience on judging
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
    Show
    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    first time :) we shall see how it goes

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    first time :) we shall see how it goes
    I haven't even started drafting my entry but I'm already preparing disputes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    I've had a question about the psionic racial classes that start on pg. 144 of CPsi and whether they're legal!

    I'll be honest, team: I don't think I've ever noticed these before. It seems like basically it's just more or less a way of spreading out LA so you still have a legal (i.e., has Hit Dice) character at ECL 1, but it's still ultimately pulling levels out of your progression to pay for your super scary powerful race. (Sarcasm. LA races aren't super scary or powerful.)

    Now, the base E6 rules propose using a reduced point-buy to allow for LA because they presume that losing class level progression when you've only got 6 levels total is not viable. (As everyone knows, we do not allow those rules.) That said, we've allowed Savage Species-style monster classes before, and you'll almost never end up with 6 HD at ECL 6 if you take a monster class, so we've toyed with the possibility of an "epic" character having fewer than 6 class levels / HD. If, you know, that's what you're into.

    Based on the precedent we set in the Savage Species round, I think it's reasonable to allow these psionic racial classes as well. Of course, we might want to lay out an assumption or two.

    • As stated on pg. 144, if you're in a racial class, you're in a racial class the whole way. The only multiclassing you can do is within the confines of the standard class levels allowed by the racial class progression.
    • No trying to change your race to weasel out of any of it. (Like, no dragonborn duergar or anything, please, I beg you. And no Racial Emulation changelings in these racial classes, either.)
    • If you choose to use a racial class, add an extra column to your table to differentiate your ECL (which the book calls your "racial level") from your HD (i.e., the number of class levels you have, or class levels + RHD if you take thri-kreen). You are Epic (per the usual rules of E6 as we play it) after racial level 6, so if you take one of these classes, you will have fewer than 6 HD when you start your Epic feat progression.


    Some notes for judges:

    • Judges are NOT to penalize Originality solely for using or not using a racial class.
    • Taking levels of the SI through a racial class is still taking levels in the SI and should be treated as such, though of course, since there are fewer available class levels to take, if the racial class prevents using the SI to the fullest, that can be acknowledged. Don't be vindictive, but you may be aware of this.
    • Regarding Elegance, the simple presence of a racial class is NOT to be considered inelegant. However, if the racial class prevents something from going as smoothly as it would otherwise, then that may be considered inelegant. Please be specific in your judgments if this becomes relevant.


    If anyone has any strong arguments against this, I'm open to discussion! But I think that this is consistent with what we've done in the past and with my original ban on LA (this is still a significant cost, whereas I felt like we'd end up with 50% pixies by volume if we just used the reduced point-buy rules).
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    mmmmm, they're fine by me.

    what about manifester level? I am of the opinion it caps at HD, even with practiced manifester.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    mmmmm, they're fine by me.

    what about manifester level? I am of the opinion it caps at HD, even with practiced manifester.
    Well the feat says that it can't increase above the HD so it should not be a problem with these racial classes , the only problem would be with the thri-keen as it give us racial hit dice so maybe here practiced manifester could increase the manifester level (not of much only of 2)
    Last edited by Quentinas; 2021-07-20 at 11:21 AM.
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
    Show
    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    RHD are HD, yeah.

    I've updated my judging criteria.

    changed UotSI and power a bit.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Just so y’all know, I never read the judges judging criteria.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Just so y’all know, I never read the judges judging criteria.
    I've never posted mine, personally - I'm not convinced it really makes a difference to the contest.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Everyone got an idea or two?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Sure I do but I'm on the other side of the divide this time :P

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Oh sure. I have about 20 disputes lined up already.

    Edit: Oh. Did you mean ideas about what to make? I distracted myself a little from judging the VC by spitballing a few things around. I have something I can work on.
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2021-07-23 at 03:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Yes one sure, maybe two but the second is working in progress for the ideas , for the first I have to do the writing
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
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    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    What is the stance on custom item crafting? Assuming that I take the appropriate feats and craft the item myself, is that fine? My idea wants something specific that would be a custom item; it's not really critical to the build, but it is flavorful and fitting.

    I could also include alternatives for the feat slot, if that would fly.

    EDIT: I should clarify that the build can do what it wants completely without the item, but it makes more sense conceptually for it to have it.

    EDIT 2: I should really double-check to make sure that the item I want exists already, because it does. My question still stands regarding item creation in general, though. Additionally, how is the experience cost paid for? Does it just come out of the level, so that the build should be submitted at level 5?
    Last edited by AsuraKyoko; 2021-07-26 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by AsuraKyoko View Post
    What is the stance on custom item crafting? Assuming that I take the appropriate feats and craft the item myself, is that fine? My idea wants something specific that would be a custom item; it's not really critical to the build, but it is flavorful and fitting.

    I could also include alternatives for the feat slot, if that would fly.

    EDIT: I should clarify that the build can do what it wants completely without the item, but it makes more sense conceptually for it to have it.

    EDIT 2: I should really double-check to make sure that the item I want exists already, because it does. My question still stands regarding item creation in general, though. Additionally, how is the experience cost paid for? Does it just come out of the level, so that the build should be submitted at level 5?
    My experience is that item creation is generally ok, but judges penalize on reliance of a specific item to make a build function. I’ve never seen someone submit fewer than all 6 levels and 10 epic feats, but my advice (MY ADVICE) is that you put your weakest feats late in the epic feat progression as a “cushion” against the assertion that your crafting xp costs prohibit you from doing everything you say it can. The 9th and 10th epic feats tend to be phone ins anyway.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    My experience is that item creation is generally ok, but judges penalize on reliance of a specific item to make a build function. I’ve never seen someone submit fewer than all 6 levels and 10 epic feats, but my advice (MY ADVICE) is that you put your weakest feats late in the epic feat progression as a “cushion” against the assertion that your crafting xp costs prohibit you from doing everything you say it can. The 9th and 10th epic feats tend to be phone ins anyway.
    Ah, thank you for the advice, that makes sense. Now to get to brewing!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Gonna look through my books when I get home. This should be interesting though.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    I've had another bit of weirdness brought to my attention.

    According to XPH pg. 17, a character with levels in multiple psionic classes gets bonus PP from high ability scores for each of those classes, which then all get poured into the same common pool of PP. However, some PrCs that grant their own manifesting (like fist of Zuoken/psionic fist and war mind) have the strange rule that "Bonus power points from having a high ability score can be gained only for the character’s highest psionic class." This seems to be a mistake and/or a holdover from before the rule on XPH 17 got finalized.

    Official ruling: Follow the rules on XPH 17-18 for bonus power points. They can be added for each applicable manifesting class. The PrC-specific text about bonus power points from a high ability score is erroneous and should be disregarded for our purposes.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Question for the chair: Are we allowed to use races whose LA has been judged as 'should be +0' according to the numerous LA reassignment threads, or must we adhere to the LA values given in the sourcebooks according to RAW?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Voldine View Post
    Question for the chair: Are we allowed to use races whose LA has been judged as 'should be +0' according to the numerous LA reassignment threads, or must we adhere to the LA values given in the sourcebooks according to RAW?
    Nope, only races that are actually +0 by RAW.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 34. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Im done mad early! I wish all of you the best of luck.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIII

    Woah. I haven't even started yet. But then again I did judge VC which took forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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