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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGirl

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    Aug 2010

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    Were not saying an always evil species is incapable of good I'm saying you can do a few good things and still be evil.
    The issue at hand isn't 'can evil individuals do good or vice versa?' it's "are some species biologically incapable of being good?". And what I'm telling you is that if a person can be respectful, empathetic, responsible, temperate, humble, etc, etc. that person isn't necessarily good, but that person is able to be good that person is not appropriately described as always evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    After all, many of the forms of prejudice we consider hideous today were actively supported by the moral paragons of societies of the past. The a Bronze Age world where it is understood that ethnic prejudice will get you consigned to the Nine Hells for all eternity looks very different from the actual Bronze Age world.

    And this isn't just an intellectual exercise, it has major consequences for gameplay. If the game setting produces a bunch of quasi-medieval cultures that are all 'evil' due to applying modern standards to a decidedly non-modern context, then any party of 'good' PCs is fundamentally obligated to act in opposition to their homes cultures and frankly just about any culture they encounter. This is a difficult proposition and it verges on grimdark since every conflict is gray vs. black at best.
    I actually realized this a bit ago: You can't put realistic medieval frenchmen into a D&D game, as it will be literally impossible for the players to feel like heroes helping these people.
    Adventurers Adventurers! My children were down at the edge of the forest cat-bagging and they were attacked by an owlbear! Please help!
    Cat bagging?
    You know, that game where you put a bunch of kittens in a sack and light it on fire. If you don't hurry they'll be killed!
    Good. **** your children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    If your idea of Good cannot coexist with draft animals and feudalism and demonic cults and expecting homemaking women, it has no business in medieval fantasy. Period, check, put a stake in it, throw everything that trips that straight in the trash for this discussion. Elfgame is not real life, Elfgame is heavily referential to bygone days, morality fundamentally does not operate in Elfgame like it does real life, and in real life there are plenty who disagree with you who also buy Elfgame. Not every single piece of fiction has to whole-heartedly endorse "The Mainstream Ethics". That is normally called propagandizing.

    You want not a single governing authority figure in any published setting to ping as Good? You do you. But doing that makes the Alignment system wholly untenable, because for that system to really mean anything useful the in-universe societies the players interact with have to actually have Good characters. And Lawful Good has to get populated somehow for Paladins to exist, which just flatly doesn't work with my understanding of your proposition, because it appears to make "Law" in the context of D&D civilizations wildly incompatible with "Good" because society-level "Good" as you define it cannot exist in their context. Directly and specifically coerced labor is required somewhere along the line for these societies to work.
    Considering the fostering and mentorship relationships that were necessary for the healthy functioning of the roman empire, I await your full-throated defense of child rape with baited breath.
    Non est salvatori salvator,
    neque defensori dominus,
    nec pater nec mater,
    nihil supernum.

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

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    Feb 2016

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncymancer View Post
    I actually realized this a bit ago: You can't put realistic medieval frenchmen into a D&D game, as it will be literally impossible for the players to feel like heroes helping these people.
    Adventurers Adventurers! My children were down at the edge of the forest cat-bagging and they were attacked by an owlbear! Please help!
    Cat bagging?
    You know, that game where you put a bunch of kittens in a sack and light it on fire. If you don't hurry they'll be killed!
    Good. **** your children.
    Good. Now there's just one thing left that you need to do. Take that historically accurate medieval european society, and make them orcs or goblins.
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    If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear, and this weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream. -Midsummer Night's Dream, Act 5, Scene 1

  3. - Top - End - #303
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncymancer View Post
    Considering the fostering and mentorship relationships that were necessary for the healthy functioning of the roman empire, I await your full-throated defense of child rape with baited breath.
    The child rape was both not a commonality as basically any pre-1800s society would define it, quite largely as their age of majority in literally all respects could at times go back to 13 years old so they literally did not see many victims of it as children, and was also effectively an externality of the function of mentorship. To say nothing of "consent" being of vanishingly little consideration all over the place before the Enlightenment. Meanwhile, forced labor was itself the thing that was necessary.

    The "bad" thing of the mentorship and fostering was not at all intrinsic to the process. Meanwhile, the "bad" thing of slavery is literally why it was needed. This comparison is wildly nonsensical as a result. And, in both cases, the majority of reason to see it as "bad" is very specific to very recent worldviews. Elfgame does not work if you insist on imposing modern Western morality, it is extensively built to run on phenomena done away with by this morality, and normally divorces personal liberties from Good vs. Evil because those are actually a still quite active question, usually as liberty vs. security.

    Also, animal cruelty is very comprehensively excluded from D&D alignment, because it simultaneously goes out of its way to place the maintenance of nature as one of the few specifically Neutral positions, and virtually never mentions cruelty without the qualifier of personhood as defined by having an afterlife or sapience. Because in many respects, this is an ongoing question, and Elfgame needs to operate for a broad spectrum of IRL people while also working for its outdated trappings.

    Are the lot of you just unable to agree to disagree? Are you wholly unable to stomach the idea that people are willing to play in a setting where "Good" allows for mass torturous slaughter of feral cats, because Good only cares about people? Are you incapable of tolerating moral ambiguities from changing norms being shunted off into a separate area from the archetypal Good vs. Evil conflict so that arguing over what is "good" can be tossed in the trash by making the vaguely common points of argument an entirely different in-universe subject?

    Why slavery is seen as wrong today cannot apply when you're dealing with routine famines and manpower being a constrained resource. Good being a bit difficult is fine, as such does fit well with many of the narrative trappings. Good being literally impossible for anyone involved in the power structure that comes with the medieval trappings, however, is not. You can't just say "Slavery Evil" and leave it at that, slavery needs to be defined in a fashion that allows for serfdom, and this simply doesn't hold up without defining it as so far beyond the pale as to render it non-functional.

    Well, at least without mind control or it just being a bonus of beating up those weaker than you. Which do comprise the bulk of D&D "slavery", but even the most utterly egregious exceptions still get called slavery and noted to be incompatible with Good when they're literally just a formality of how the social strata are legislated. And the Drow's situation would, in any sensible follow-up of events, last for very little time before being strictly limited to stop the revolts from wrecking large chunks of cities, or to keep it to a sustainable rate despite the obscene attrition of slaves instead of suffering crippling labor shortages after each revolt.

    It is rather telling that Drow society is frequently summarized as "Because Lolth", on the explicit basis that it does not work without routine divine intervention.

  4. - Top - End - #304
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

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