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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Aug 2020

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    okay honest question because I'm admittedly kind of confused, and this just came to mind.

    What exactly is the problem with Always-evil races? Like, what is actually wrong here?

    are you worried about evil babies or something? Because you can always just... not have evil babies...

    maybe it's just the headache, but I'm not sure i understand what the problem is here.
    To me the issue really is that it creates a less interesting world. There are no surprises when you encounter always evil race, they are kill on sight. This prevents you from developing individuals of that race into compelling characters, even compelling villains. They don't need elaborate reasons to do evil things, they just do it because the book says they do.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

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    Feb 2016

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    I feel compelled once again to point out that there are no always evil races
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    If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear, and this weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream. -Midsummer Night's Dream, Act 5, Scene 1

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    What exactly is the problem with Always-evil races? Like, what is actually wrong here?
    It's not "the" problem. Different people have different perceived problems with the concept depending on what moral philosophy they approach the concept from.

    For J.R.R. Tolkien, there were two problems. The first was the idea that evil cannot create, only corrupt. He played with the idea of orcs having been created by Morgoth, but abandoned it because it clashed with that idea. The second was issue of free will. If orcs are corruptions of humans or elves, they must have free will, the ability to choose between good and evil. Against that background, there ought to be chance, however slight, of redemption for orcs.

    You're not Tolkien and don't have to share his views, so you could just say orcs are a natural evil instead of moral evil and be done with it. Or you could ascribe to some moral philosophy that doesn't have hang-ups about free will and evil being able to create.

    Spoiler: Tangent: free will is not mutually exclusive with being always evil
    Show
    For practical purposes, free will is the potential to choose between several courses of action. However, while you can value this potential, you cannot actually perceive it. You cannot go back in time and see the same person in the same situation making a different choice. Only one branch of the decision tree is ever actualized and visible to you. So, instead, you are forced to look at other persons in similar situations and see if they make different choices. Everything we practically consider proof for free will is really just proof of variance.

    But there is no real need for variance in behaviour of a free agent. The simplest way for a free agent to be always evil is for them to always choose evil. There is no actual contradiction in that statement. Whether we're talking of a single being or a group of beings doesn't matter. You can have an entire species always choosing evil as easily as an individual always choosing evil. It simply feels off for a human to think of a free agents with invariant behaviour, because variance is what we expect to observe, variance is what we normally use to prove there's more than one option. If someone could do something but never does it, how can you know they actually could? The answer is that you can't, but your inability to know doesn't preclude it being true.


    For people who aren't Tolkien, other problems typically have to do with perceived allegory or perceived similarity with whatever they happen to consider controversial this morning. It's impossible to give an exhaustive list and I don't want to rehash the examples from earlier this thread.

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

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    Feb 2016

    Default Re: There should be no evil alligned races

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharur View Post
    Being good isn't necessarily an advantage to survival.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    That's not quite true - to a great extent, in real life it is an advantage. Just societies that are mutually helpful (good, taking care of others) tend to thrive.
    Most major empires have had slavery in one form or another at some point of their history and most of these could not have reached their height without it. Additionally, I think you'd probably be hard pressed to find one from more than maybe 50-100 years ago that didn't have a completely draconian system of laws

    EDIT:
    You don't know the power of the dark side
    Last edited by Bohandas; Today at 05:14 AM.
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    If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear, and this weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream. -Midsummer Night's Dream, Act 5, Scene 1

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