New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 50 of 50
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Maat Mons's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    The viewpoint you seem to think I hold sure would be absurd. But... that's not what I was saying. I don't want to dissect the method of delivery too much, since I worry we could derail this thread. But I will try for a third and final time convey the idea behind the text you quoted.

    That idea is: "I think this thread would be improved if we stopped making posts about how we feel someone's suggestion doesn't merit the description of 'gish' or 'high-op.'"

    And if that doesn't do it, then I guess I'm just really bad at putting my thoughts into words, and should quit while I'm ahead before I'm any further behind.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Maybe the OP themselves could let us know what he considers gish and/or high op, and if what is being suggested is useful or not.
    Lol.

    So, IIRC, the term "Gish" originated in the bygone glory days of D&D, with the psionic "gith" races. It was a term for their Multiclass Fighter / Wizard. Which, in those days, meant that it had most of the advantages of both classes (HP, weapons, attacks, armor, saves, spells).

    It's really easy to build a high-op Fighter - just get Festering Anger on an infinite attacks crit fisher (I played that guy - I retired him after I demonstrated how OP he was).

    But sharing resources between both sides of a non-infinite build could be a tad tricky. So I was curious what people would (or had) come up with.

    This is the Playground, so a certain degree of "I want to play…" being responded to with "play a full caster" is to be expected.

    Although I'm loving a lot of the ideas and creativity and craftsmanship in some of the builds… I was kinda expecting some "let's see what muggles can do", some optimization of muggle abilities as part of a Gish build.

    One of my many reasons for making this thread was to see what happened when the same mind tried to optimize both a caster and a martial in the same build.

    Now, if a caster//caster can tick off every single check box, can perform as well as a traditional Gish in terms of roles, durability, stamina, etc, then I guess I'll echo the "play a caster" mantra here. But the build - whether caster//martial or caster//caster - needs to come out of the gate strong. By level 2 at the latest, the party needs to feel that this character is carrying their weight, and isn't running on fumes after 10 encounters.

    It's not like it's hard for a martial character to come on strong by level 2 just with Fighter bonus feats on several builds, like BFC or mounted combat. But that can be tough to balance with requirements for Prestige Classes - especially when you can take them on both sides of the gestalt.

    So, by "Gish" I mean… durable, capable of filling a "Fighter" role, NI stamina, in addition to casting (probably "tier 1 casting" given high-op). By "high op" I mean… if you wanted to eek out every last drop of power from the build (before "infinite"), what would you build?

    Clearer?

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Okay, the specification makes it clearer the starting point should be ToB on one side, as that has the best starts endurance-wise instead of needing to be like level 9 to really start having staying power.

    Warblade 2/Archivist 3//Egoist Psion 5 would qualify you for theurgy, using the straightforward and cheap Archivist toolbox potential while Egoist/Warblade is resource efficient combat that saves prepared slots for niche answers. Warblade at 1st is a must for the 12+Con HP.

    Depending on how far Maneuvers need to go, you can use Psychic Warrior for a bit more PP, including cheaper self-healing. It's also a big help for the raw output of Egoist and Warblade thanks to bonus feats.

    Fully avoiding multiclassing penalties with four classes would delay theurgy to level 8 instead of 6 as you'd need PsyWar 2/Warblade 2/Archivist 3 to qualify. Not worth it, in other words.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    I think a proper Gestalt build competition would be pretty cool.

    Anyway, decided to do the build, but unlike other posters emphasizing spellcasting, I'm going with more of an emphasis on some abusive martial cheese

    Spoiler: Anthropromorphic Giant Octopus Gish
    Show
    Amphibious Anthropromorphic Giant Octopus 2/Cleric 18
    Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 18

    Feats: Destruction Devotion, Multiweapon Fighting, EWP: Sai, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Holy Warrior, Martial Study
    Fighter Feats: Thug Fighter, Resolute Alternate Class Feature, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Crushing Strike

    Notes:
    - Sai is picked because it is a Shadow Hand weapon (getting dex-to-damage) that does bludgeoning damage (getting Crushing Strike)
    - Build is made with multiclassing penalties in mind. If this is not an issue, I'd go with Octopus 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 16 // Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Sorcerer 4, which should net 8ths in Divine and Arcane spells
    - Every hit on an enemy reduces their natural armor or armor bonus by 1 (Destruction Devotion), and also boosts your attack roll by 1 (Crushing Strike). Only your first few attacks against a new opponennt have a chance at missing. If an opponent somehow gets to a second turn (which I doubt), they're starting with much lower AC than before.
    - Rough damage calcs: STR (5) + DEX (10) + 6 (Fighter Feats) + 9 (Holy Warrior) (per hit). I'd estimate that you'd hit about 90-95% of the time, and ballpark doing over 500 damage a turn against an enemy.

    I have a few ideas how to optimize this more, but I think this is sufficient as a proof-of-concept.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tennessee (USA)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    (Accidentally overwrote this instead of quoting it, whoops)
    I had a pretty fun gish tank build
    Human Dragonborn Crusader 5/Ruby knight vindicator 10/crusader 5//cleric (spontaneous, cloistered) 3/church inquisitor 2/cleric 1/dragon shamen 4/cleric 1/dragon shamen 4/contemplative 2/divine oracle 3

    Results in full BaB, full clerical progression, 20th initiator level six domains (knowledge, protection, mobility, inquisitor, Oracle, storms) all of which, plus the cures are added directly to my spells known, mitigating the downsides of being a spontaneous caster. To be clear, that's more spells known a level beforepicking my standard spells known, than a sorcerer would have after doing so
    immunity to charms, disease, paralysis, sleep, frightful presence,
    Evasion except it works in armor
    Trap sense, slippery mind
    Several ways to passively heal so I rarely have to take actions in combat to heal, because using actions to heal means I'm not using actions to prevent damage.

    Good damage, amazing durability, decent skills, decent to good mobility
    Last edited by Lord Foul; 2021-07-25 at 10:24 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Personally, I think a gish is any magical character who, in combat, primarily uses magic to be a better beatstick. This can actually be decently high-op since direct damage starts coming back into vogue, and gishing fully exploits full casters' great buffs. The value of a gish relative to a dedicated full caster depends on how many lost caster levels there are, and in gestalt there generally aren't many.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    But the build - whether caster//martial or caster//caster - needs to come out of the gate strong. By level 2 at the latest, the party needs to feel that this character is carrying their weight, and isn't running on fumes after 10 encounters.
    Wait, ten encounters? Is the hypothetical campaign a fantasy version of Stalingrad, by chance? Frankly, most characters proposed here, including the full-BaB ones, are dying or running away before 10 (high op) encounters at level 2. This is, quite simply, due to HP attrition. For example: Suppose I swapped Archivist out with Warblade in my build (so it's Wizard/Incant/Halruaan//Warblade) - INT synergy, concentration synergy, action advantages, etc. Nice, right? But no healing. Strikes all day, but that doesn't matter if he's dead. ~23 max HP won't cut it for 10 encounters. You might have divine casting friends, but as you noted they run out of spells well before 10 encounters are up. No wands of lesser vigor at level 2, either.

    If we're adding in constraints such as "survive prolonged wars of attrition at level 2" then I'd change Archivist X to Crusader 1/Archivist X, take the Martial Spirit stance, and burn two feats on Stone Power and Wild Cohort. The cost is 1 level of Archivist spell progression and two feats. The benefit is some decent early-game strikes and much more durability than a typical fighter-mage, enough at least to plausibly survive until Metamagic Effect comes online.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    I think it's possible to create a gish that is cleave master. A cleave master needs to inflict as much damage as possible with as much reach as possible so as to mow down as many opponents as possible.

    Expanding on the earlier build I made consider:
    Barbarian 1/Duskblade 13/Knight Protector 3/Ranger 3//Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1/Hathran 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Wizard 1/Contemplative 2

    The feats are:
    Human: Ethran //prereq
    1. Ocular spell //Persistomancer
    Duskblade 2: Combat Casting //prereq
    Pegleg graft: Mobility //prereq
    3. Persistent Spell //Persistomancer
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will //prereq
    6. Leadership //prereq
    Extended Persistent Ocular Heroics[Dodge, Cleave, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Power Attack] // prereqs
    Extended Persistent Favor of the Martyr: Endurance
    9. Arcane Mastery //suck the uncertainty out of Otiluke's Suppressing Field
    12. Initiate of Mystra //Cast (Greater) Anyspell as often as desired
    15. Spell Mastery //prereq
    18. Uncanny Forethought //making casting time a standard action to qualify for Supernatural Spell

    With this build, you can use Holy Transformation+Draconic Polymorph[Marilith] then cast Girallon's Blessing to have 8 arms while wielding a Heavy (Magic of Faerun) Glaive modified to support use by all 8 arms (as per Savage Species). Add in Wraith Strike, Bite of Werebear, Giant Size, Aura of Vitality, and Greater Magic Weapon. The strength ends up being:
    94=29(base)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+4(Aura of Vitality, Morale)+32(Giant Size, Size)+16(Bite of the Werebear, Enhancement)+5(inherent) for a +42 strength bonus.
    The colossal heavy glaive does 426=12d6(base)+5(enhancement)+189(strength)+40(pow er attack)+150(Channeled Harm or Heal), which can be reduced by 75 with a will save.

    This is usually enough to mow through opponents, which can be done pretty much indefinitely between great cleave, the Knight Protector's Supreme Cleave, colossal size, reach, and Otiluke's suppressing field taking out all spell based defenses of opponents.

    If that's not enough, Dweomerkeeper + Uncanny Forethought + Rashemi Spirit Magic enables the creation of an Ice Assassin army of clones of an Ice Assassin of you who can share in all these spells.

    Perhaps more ludicrous to consider is what happens with Erupt + Uncanny Forethought + Channel spell.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tennessee (USA)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I think it's possible to create a gish that is cleave master. A cleave master needs to inflict as much damage as possible with as much reach as possible so as to mow down as many opponents as possible.

    Expanding on the earlier build I made consider:
    Barbarian 1/Duskblade 13/Knight Protector 3/Ranger 3//Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1/Hathran 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Wizard 1/Contemplative 2

    The feats are:
    Human: Ethran //prereq
    1. Ocular spell //Persistomancer
    Duskblade 2: Combat Casting //prereq
    Pegleg graft: Mobility //prereq
    3. Persistent Spell //Persistomancer
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will //prereq
    6. Leadership //prereq
    Extended Persistent Ocular Heroics[Dodge, Cleave, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Power Attack] // prereqs
    Extended Persistent Favor of the Martyr: Endurance
    9. Arcane Mastery //suck the uncertainty out of Otiluke's Suppressing Field
    12. Initiate of Mystra //Cast (Greater) Anyspell as often as desired
    15. Spell Mastery //prereq
    18. Uncanny Forethought //making casting time a standard action to qualify for Supernatural Spell

    With this build, you can use Holy Transformation+Draconic Polymorph[Marilith] then cast Girallon's Blessing to have 8 arms while wielding a Heavy (Magic of Faerun) Glaive modified to support use by all 8 arms (as per Savage Species). Add in Wraith Strike, Bite of Werebear, Giant Size, Aura of Vitality, and Greater Magic Weapon. The strength ends up being:
    94=29(base)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+4(Aura of Vitality, Morale)+32(Giant Size, Size)+16(Bite of the Werebear, Enhancement)+5(inherent) for a +42 strength bonus.
    The colossal heavy glaive does 426=12d6(base)+5(enhancement)+189(strength)+40(pow er attack)+150(Channeled Harm or Heal), which can be reduced by 75 with a will save.

    This is usually enough to mow through opponents, which can be done pretty much indefinitely between great cleave, the Knight Protector's Supreme Cleave, colossal size, reach, and Otiluke's suppressing field taking out all spell based defenses of opponents.

    If that's not enough, Dweomerkeeper + Uncanny Forethought + Rashemi Spirit Magic enables the creation of an Ice Assassin army of clones of an Ice Assassin of you who can share in all these spells.

    Perhaps more ludicrous to consider is what happens with Erupt + Uncanny Forethought + Channel spell.
    If I might ask. What point does the wizard dip provide to this build?

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    If I might ask. What point does the wizard dip provide to this build?
    It's a prereq for Spell Mastery which is a prereq for Uncanny Forethought which is a prereq for unlocking use of DweomerKeeper's Supernatural Spell by reducing the casting duration to a standard action. On the upside, Rashemi Spirit Magic + Wizard 1 + Archivist 17 means we can spontaneously cast any scribed Wizard or Archivist spell. (You probably can't do that with just Uncanny Forethought according to a rules clarification/update in the Rules Compendium.)

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Wait, ten encounters? Is the hypothetical campaign a fantasy version of Stalingrad, by chance? Frankly, most characters proposed here, including the full-BaB ones, are dying or running away before 10 (high op) encounters at level 2. This is, quite simply, due to HP attrition. For example: Suppose I swapped Archivist out with Warblade in my build (so it's Wizard/Incant/Halruaan//Warblade) - INT synergy, concentration synergy, action advantages, etc. Nice, right? But no healing. Strikes all day, but that doesn't matter if he's dead. ~23 max HP won't cut it for 10 encounters. You might have divine casting friends, but as you noted they run out of spells well before 10 encounters are up. No wands of lesser vigor at level 2, either.

    If we're adding in constraints such as "survive prolonged wars of attrition at level 2" then I'd change Archivist X to Crusader 1/Archivist X, take the Martial Spirit stance, and burn two feats on Stone Power and Wild Cohort. The cost is 1 level of Archivist spell progression and two feats. The benefit is some decent early-game strikes and much more durability than a typical fighter-mage, enough at least to plausibly survive until Metamagic Effect comes online.
    Well, I didn't say 10 high-op encounters

    But I did say high-op character.

    Troll blooded, DMM Persist Lesser Vigor, Crusader, immunity to damage (maybe), and, yes, even Wand of Lesser Vigor (partially charged, bought with group funds, bought with funds from underwater basket weaving (no, that potentially breaks "arbitrary"), or party-crafted with metamagic reducers (which, "party crafting" costs XP, meaning more (but not arbitrarily more - there is a defined limit to your funds to craft with) time spent adventuring and more treasure / wealth acquired each level), or bought with stacked price reducers and/or "only works for" "curses") should all be viable by level 2. As should a Dark archer, using the distance penalty to spot check rules to solo the world (until they run out of arrows ("unlimited / makes its own arrows" seems to clock in at around +1k. But you'd probably need to be a member of a mixed-level party for a party member to be able to Craft it for you cheaply enough that you could afford it at 2nd)).

    And that's not counting quasilycanthrope, finding a friendly were-whatever (say, bear) to bite you and *technically* be "2nd level" (although this is almost certainly a highly suboptimal choice later), or any of my own personal brands of cheese that I've never seen anyone even mention.

    There's *lots* of ways to be really… likely to be able to keep going.

    But, if the character is out of juice on *offense*, the party may still question the value of bringing them along.

    Part of the expectation of "Gish" (IME) is that you aren't limited to a 15-minute workday (like a pure caster usually is (considered to be)).

    Also, a lot of modern(ish) video games run on the "lots of small encounters" mindset, IME - perhaps it'll make a comeback in RPGs.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tennessee (USA)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    To those who are better than me at knowing what optimization thresholds are, is my crusader/cleric build good? I know it was fun, and in "actual play" he was probably the most effective member of the party but is it actually high Op

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    To those who are better than me at knowing what optimization thresholds are, is my crusader/cleric build good? I know it was fun, and in "actual play" he was probably the most effective member of the party but is it actually high Op
    ...I don't think you're supposed to be getting spellcasting progression from the extra Cleric levels overlapping Ruby Knight Vindicator. And Spontaneous Cleric is really trash for hard optimization unless you're hammering Mystra privileges, for the same reason Sorcerer is terrible. Clerics are built on full list access, surrendering that is a Bad Idea.

    Edit: Double-checked RKV, you're mis-timing things pretty hard as you want a Cleric level at 6th and 11th to precisely plug the gaps of the progression, not delay that recovery.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-07-25 at 08:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tennessee (USA)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    ...I don't think you're supposed to be getting spellcasting progression from the extra Cleric levels overlapping Ruby Knight Vindicator. And Spontaneous Cleric is really trash for hard optimization unless you're hammering Mystra privileges, for the same reason Sorcerer is terrible. Clerics are built on full list access, surrendering that is a Bad Idea.

    Edit: Double-checked RKV, you're mis-timing things pretty hard as you want a Cleric level at 6th and 11th to precisely plug the gaps of the progression, not delay that recovery.
    ... That is at 6th and 11th cleric 3+Church inquisitor 2 is 5, next level is cleric for 6. Then four levels of dragon shamen makes level 10 then cleric at 11.
    And yes normally spontaneous cleric is bad, but I had 6 domains (knowledge, protection, nobility, storm Oracle and inquisition), all of which added directly to my spells known. Hell, those alone provided more spells known than a sorcerer before I actually started picking and that's without counting cure spells which I also get as free spells known. I had a plethora of options with my spells. On the off chance a spell wasn't known to me, I could still use scrolls.
    That being said, what do you mean by mystra privileges?

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    ... That is at 6th and 11th cleric 3+Church inquisitor 2 is 5, next level is cleric for 6. Then four levels of dragon shamen makes level 10 then cleric at 11.
    And yes normally spontaneous cleric is bad, but I had 6 domains (knowledge, protection, nobility, storm Oracle and inquisition), all of which added directly to my spells known. Hell, those alone provided more spells known than a sorcerer before I actually started picking and that's without counting cure spells which I also get as free spells known. I had a plethora of options with my spells. On the off chance a spell wasn't known to me, I could still use scrolls.
    That being said, what do you mean by mystra privileges?
    ...You accidentally edited the post with the build into a duplicate of this comment, so I can't double check, and you can't put two PRC levels on the same level. I did not notice Cleric immediately following Church Inquisitor, which is the one way to do it.

    As for Mystra privileges, there's a few extremely ridiculous shenanigans with either Patron Deity Mystra or Magic Domain, particularly the Anyspell line in the Magic Domain replicating any lower-level spell than their associated slot without the restrictions Shadow Casting uses.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Sorcerer 5/Sand shaper 1/ Rainbow Servant 10/Abjurant Champion 4//Spirit Shaman 5/Sentinel of Bharrai 10/Spirit Shaman 6-10.

    You can as a Su ability at-will change into a bear at 8th and dire bear at 12th.

    You get access to the cleric spell list at 16th which is usable by the spirit shaman.

    Sand Shaper drastically increases spells known for both sorcerer and spirit shaman. This has a side effect of drastically increasing the spells spirit shaman can retrieve each day. As your sorcerer side can use the desert insight spells, your spirit shaman side is free to select any other spell they have access to. Once you reach 16, this also includes the entire spell list. The arcane preparation feat gives access to sanctified magic for both sides.

    Cleric spells means divine power.

    At level 20 you get access to the spirit shaman's guide magic ability.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    spirit lion totem 1/Monk 11/full BAB x 8//Wizard5/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantitrix 10

    You get +20 BAB at 20, Your fists can do 12d8 damage with greater mighty wallop, +2 extra attacks, Carmendine Monk feat lets your monk abilities key off int, A certain pair of sandals doubles your UAS damage on a charge, Incantatrix shenanigans, etc. This is simply a blow things up build.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    you can't put two PRC levels on the same level.
    Normally, you would be correct; however,
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I was going to include other minor criteria (and I'd best mention "can choose prestige classes on both sides of the gestalt") but let's leave the floor open for now. What does a playground high-op Gestalt Gish look like?

    I explicitly allowed this exception to RAW in the OP.

    My previous polling of the Playground indicated that there was not a clear "state of the practice" - some people played with that rule, others intentionally ignored it. Shrug.

    So I explicitly called it out as legal for this thread for people to put prestige classes on both sides on the gestalt simultaneously.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tennessee (USA)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Well, in that case I could swap two of the level of cleric, one level of divine Oracle and one level of dragon shaman on my build for two levels of prestige Paladin, two levels of sovereign speaker,
    Plus the holy mount feat (and then if the dm accepts that level of cheese, the battle blessing feat) which grants two extra domains, charisma to saves, a small pool of extra healing, a second smite and a mount as good as a 25th level paladin's.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Emperor Tippy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Earth

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Factotum 11 (Cunning Surge and Cunning Breach, letting you take extra actions and ignore resistance (including Spell Immunity) respectively)/X 9 (depends on exactly what you want, if nothing else then Fighter for feats to Chaos Shuffle into more Inspiration or whatever is always good).

    The other half should be Psion if you are allowed to (ab)use Psychic Chirurgery and Spell to Power Erudites, otherwise Wizard is a better choice.

    The first Psion trick is to find another psionic creature (worst case, make an Ice Assassin of yourself via scroll), use Psychic Reformation to have it reselect all of its Powers Known (and spend its feats all on Expanded Knowledge for more), and then use Psychic Chirurgery to teach you the powers. Once it runs out of XP, level drain it down so that its XP is set to half of the lower levels total and continue (assuming your DM won't let you Thought Bottle an Ice Assassin). This can get you basically all the Psionic powers. If your DM allows StP Erudites it can get you all the spells as well.

    If your DM won't allow all the powers, Wizard is better than Psion. Of course, what you do from there depends on exactly what you want. If you want to be primarily a caster then you use Factotum as the support with Cunning Surge allowing effectively free Quicken and Cunning Breach letting you ignore SR. Fill out the rest of the Factotum side with beneficial utility stuffs. If you want the casting to be more of the support then a Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage with Persistent Spell fun being used to support a Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Assassin 1/ Telflammar Shadowlord 4/ X 4 can also be quite nasty. In that case, you use Incantatrix for all the buffs made to last all day. Persist a Dimension Jumper, a Greater Dimension Jumper, and Shapechange into anything with At-Will Greater Teleport. That lets you go Swift, Move, and then turn every Cunning Surge into another Full Attack.

    There is also the lulz fun of Ninja 8. Find your foe while on the Ethereal Plane (Invisibility plus Mindblank is nice), and then do a Ghost Strike will all the damage you can cram on. That one can be made into a phenomenal assassin.

    The easiest "High-Op" gestalt is just Feat Rogue//Wizard with all of the Fighter bonus feats Chaos Shuffled into useful things.

    ---
    Higher Optimization Gestalt does one of three things:
    1) Use the non-caster half to enhance the caster half (such as using Factotum 8 for Cunning Surge), this is basically just a caster with some extra abilities.
    2) Use the caster half to enhance the non-caster half (such as using Incantatrix to put all of the Persistent buffs onto, effectively, another build).
    3) Use the gestalt to do realize an idea that neither half can do alone. This generally requires a great deal more specificity in what you want and can end up with things like seventeen classes being used over the 20 levels of both sides.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    - Lots of mention of persisting spells, which is a must for super-high-op gestalt gishing.
    This is a personal list I tend to use for my persistomancer gishs. It's far from complete and it's composed enterely by spells that I like, so they are not always necessarily "the best", but they tend to be powerfull. A number of spells were already mentioned, but I'll just post my list entirely:

    Lvl 1

    Cléric
    Divine Favor

    Wiz/Sor
    Expeditious Retreat
    Shield
    Accelerated Movement
    Critical Strike

    Paladin
    Silverbeard

    Lvl 2

    Cleric
    Elation
    Cloud of Knives
    Stone Fist

    Wiz/Sor
    Wraithstrike
    Alter Self
    Detect Thoughts
    Scimitar of Sand
    Claws of Darkness
    Suffer the Flesh

    Paladin
    Righteous Fury

    Lvl 3

    Cleric
    Prayer
    Vigor, Mass Lesser
    Cloak of Bravery
    Vision of the Omniscient Eye
    Aura of Cold, Lesser
    Channeled Divine Shield
    Divine Retaliation
    Corona of Cold
    Ice Axe
    Sonorous Hum
    Grace

    Wiz/Sor
    Devil's Eye
    Blink
    Evard's Menacing Tentacles
    Bite of the Wererat
    Tremorsense
    Sonorous Hum


    Lvl 4

    Cleric
    Divine Power
    Freedom of Movement
    Recitation
    Consumptive Field
    Positive Energy Aura
    Holy Transformation, Lesser
    True Prayer of the Chosen

    Wiz/Sor
    Fire Shield
    Invisibility, Greater
    Mirror Image, Greater
    Trollshape
    Bite of the Werewolf
    Forceward
    Ray Deflection
    Ruin Delver’s Fortune
    Aerial Alacrity

    Lvl 5

    Cleric
    Righteous Might
    Dragon Breath
    Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

    Wiz/Sor
    Shard Blessing Aura
    Skin of the Steel Dragon
    Blink, Greater
    Anticold Sphere
    Acid Sheath
    Bite of the Wereboar

    Lvl 6

    Cleric
    Spiritual Guardian
    Stone Body

    Wiz/Sor
    Bite of the Weretiger

    Lvl 7

    Cleric
    Consumptive Field, Greater
    Evil Glare
    Holy Star
    Holy Transformation

    Wiz/Sor
    Retributive Enervation
    Aspect of the Platinum Dragon
    Bite of the Werebear
    Kiss of the Vampire

    Wu Jen
    Giant Size


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Spells you don't need to persist at all, in part due to high CL:
    Magic Vestment; Magic Weapon, Greater; Heart of Air; Heart of Water; Heart of Earth; Heart of Fire; Barkskin; Overland Flight; Contingency; Superior Resistance; Create Magic Tatoo; Elemental Body; Luminous Armor; Luminous Armor, Greater; Mind Blank; Disobedience; Energy Absorbtion; Protection from Arrows; Greater Mighty Wallop;
    Last edited by Arael666; 2021-08-04 at 11:11 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

    Unarmed Swordsage // Dominant Ideal Ardent. Wis-SAD, all good saves, good at every level, take all the actions, rebuild yourself as a standard action depending on what you need to deal with that day.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •