3.P - Shadows In The Real World

[Blackhawk748]

Why assume the real world is dead magic, rather than simply not connected to any other planes and not (previously) having had any?

It's plausible either way, but only the latter is useful for the purpose of this thought experiment.

Pretty sure it's because our plane has been explicitly visited in DnD materials in the past and it's a Dead Magic Plane.

[Zanos]

Assuming the shadow has normal access to it's abilities, you can't really harm it with anything in the real world. There are 'mundane' special materials that can harm incorporeal creatures, but they obviously don't exist in reality. Holy water is one option as mentioned, but isn't very effective. Incorporeal creatures however, must remain adjacent to the exterior of a surface while passing through solid objects. Therefore, they cannot pass through a barrier if it's more than 5ft thick. Maybe some mortals could...reach the relative safety of the large underground Vaults?

But that does bear a question, how will the shadows be run? A lot of people look at shadows and just see their statblocks, but the normal behavior of shadows is not to fly around at maximum speed looking for population centers to devour. Shadows are ambush predators, that lurk in the darkness and ambush passerby. They do not actively hunt; they are the remnants of the soul of a living thing drained of all vital force. You're more likely to see them meandering in the dark corners of their former homes than actively hunting, unless someone has taken control of them and ordered them to do otherwise.

If they are behaving as normal, a single shadow in the real world could make a small area uninhabitable, but won't likely doom the world or a country. So you would have time for your character to build up some anti-undead measures. A wand or something of command undead would be a good choice to charm a shadow for 1/day per cl, gaining some degree of control over it and all it's spawn. Magic missile would be a decent level 1 option to at least damage them reliably. If the shadow turns up in a big city it will be a lot worse than it shows up in the middle of nowhere.

To be fair, a typical D&D world is ill-equipped to avoid obliteration at the hands of Shadows too.

Not really. All you need is a mid level caster to use a divination to tell them which shadow is at the top of the pecking order, then he just teleports to it and uses command undead or whatever to tell it to order all the other shadows to present their necks. The commanded shadow won't do anything suicidal, but spawn are completely enslaved to it, so telling it to order it's spawn to not defend themselves should be fine; undead have no love for their spawn and routinely order them to do suicidal stuff anyway. Once the spawn are dealt with, just kill the last shadow with your favorite force damage spell or bonk it with a ghost touch weapon.

So that's a 5th level teleport, a 2nd level command...maybe a 4th level scrying or a 5th level contact other plane to get some information about the shadow? Seems like a 9th level wizard or maybe a cleric could deal with it in a day or two. If you have a handy wu jen they have a planar binding variant that works directly on incorporeal undead as well. If you don't have mid level casters handy it gets harder, but I believe there are a few special materials that strike incorporeal undead as magic weapons, despite not being magic otherwise, that are relatively cheap. So even without magic, you aren't completely defenseless.

It gets more complicated if the shadows are deliberately freeing their own spawn to prevent a single point of failure, but shadows are intelligence 6. They can understand language, but that's two standard deviations off average intelligence. They really shouldn't be making any complex plans. Realistically a competent high level military commander is probably between int 14-16; a shadow probably struggles to understand abstract concepts like basic algebra, and is most likely pushing or under the line to be classified as mentally impaired. A shadow is as dumb to an orc as an orc is to a human. You could have an extraordinary shadow with a better stat array, but then it's still only as smart as the average human...who is not a very good planner or commander.

This isn't to say that the shadows couldn't do a ton of damage before being neutralized, but it's far from the end of the world. Also consider the above point, shadows are not naturally hunters; so someone would have to be compelling them to behave this way.

[icefractal]

Shadows are ambush predators, that lurk in the darkness and ambush passerby. They do not actively hunt; they are the remnants of the soul of a living thing drained of all vital force. You're more likely to see them meandering in the dark corners of their former homes than actively hunting, unless someone has taken control of them and ordered them to do otherwise.

I don't think I agree with this - Libris Mortis describes them as hungry to drain people, having a powerful craving to do so. That doesn't sound like they'd be content to linger in one spot unless prey was coming there regularly.

I wasn't assuming any kind of advanced tactics, but if you just take some very simple ones like:
See people --> sneak up and drain them
No people --> look for obvious signs of people, like houses and lights
No signs --> wander around randomly, preferring dark areas
Getting hurt --> go underground

Then that's enough to be a pretty huge menace if they ever get into a city. I'd agree they probably don't quickly move en-mass to the next city after that one's empty, so if they hit an isolated area there'd be some breathing room. But on the other hand, randomly spreading out like that means it's difficult to tell when you've really dealt with them - there could always be some random one lurking in an abandoned shed somewhere, with the potential to start the whole cycle again.


Edit: actually the whole thing of Shadows having control over their spawn is weird when combined with a lack of organized behavior. If Shadows just want to eat people indiscriminately, what are they even telling their spawn to do? Come with them? That's just more competition for the food supply. Go the opposite way? That works ok, but it's not really a benefit. Force their spawn to travel behind them and act as a reserve force which doesn't get to eat very often, in case strong foes are encountered? That's pretty mean, but they are evil ... however, since most Shadows are under control, this wouldn't fit with their established behavior. Maybe just let them go do whatever, with the option of calling "dibs" if they ever happen to be hunting the same prey.

[Zanos]

I don't think I agree with this - Libris Mortis describes them as hungry to drain people, having a powerful craving to do so. That doesn't sound like they'd be content to linger in one spot unless prey was coming there regularly.

I was referring to the MM description of their tactics and behavior. LM probably describes how they feel about eating, but I would say that's different to how they actually achieve those goals.

I wasn't assuming any kind of advanced tactics, but if you just take some very simple ones like:
See people --> sneak up and drain them
No people --> look for obvious signs of people, like houses and lights
No signs --> wander around randomly, preferring dark areas
Getting hurt --> go underground

This seems reasonable to me, I was more referring to shadows taking specific countermeasures against spellcasters by deliberately breaking their own chain of command.

Then that's enough to be a pretty huge menace if they ever get into a city. I'd agree they probably don't quickly move en-mass to the next city after that one's empty, so if they hit an isolated area there'd be some breathing room. But on the other hand, randomly spreading out like that means it's difficult to tell when you've really dealt with them - there could always be some random one lurking in an abandoned shed somewhere, with the potential to start the whole cycle again.

Agreed on both counts. I don't think a shadow will stay in the same place forever, but it also isn't beelining from place to place. It will move on if there is no prey in an area, but that could take some time. If you have access to divinations and persistence you could hunt down the survivors, but you'd have to destroy every shadow in existence to remove the threat forever.

Edit: actually the whole thing of Shadows having control over their spawn is weird when combined with a lack of organized behavior. If Shadows just want to eat people indiscriminately, what are they even telling their spawn to do? Come with them? That's just more competition for the food supply. Go the opposite way? That works ok, but it's not really a benefit. Force their spawn to travel behind them and act as a reserve force which doesn't get to eat very often, in case strong foes are encountered? That's pretty mean, but they are evil ... however, since most Shadows are under control, this wouldn't fit with their established behavior. Maybe just let them go do whatever, with the option of calling "dibs" if they ever happen to be hunting the same prey.

I did review LM since you mentioned it and found this:

Undead of low intelligence (such as shadows) that have the ability to create spawn do so almost by accident. They do not create spawn for any higher purpose but as a consequence of the curse that gives them life. Sometimes undead of low intelligence even come to regard the spawn they have created as competitors for the same living resources, resulting in conflict.

Seems like according to LM, as long as an outbreak of low intelligence spawning undead isn't headed up by someone smarter, there's a good chance it will put a stop to itself through infighting.

[icefractal]

Seems like according to LM, as long as an outbreak of low intelligence spawning undead isn't headed up by someone smarter, there's a good chance it will put a stop to itself through infighting.

Interesting - it doesn't exactly make sense with the "have control over their spawn" part though, since the progenitor Shadow could tell the others to **** off. "Sibling" or "cousin" shadows could come into conflict though.

It occurs to me that if Shadows mainly regard their spawn as a nuisance, you might get a pattern of alternating behavior between roaming and lurking -
Shadow 1: In the course of wandering around, makes a spawn, and tells it to stay put so it won't follow and be competition.
Shadow 2: Is now stuck in that area, but eventually a traveller comes by and gets eaten. The new spawn is told to "bugger off".
Shadow 3: Is a wandering Shadow like its grandparent, and will probably make more stationary Shadows.

Since the wandering ones find more prey, the majority of Shadows are stationary, but the majority of people killed is by the wandering ones. When a wandering Shadow dies, a bunch of its stationary spawn become mobile.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Because the thought experiment is predicated on the idea that "even a single shadow" is functionally impossible to fight. With access to any magic (even level 1), that's no longer the case.

Sure, but just because there isn't any magic on Earth right now doesn't make it dead-magic - it just means there isn't any yet (in fact, it kinda can't be dead magic if the construct is going to be a magic item crafter). And it would probably take a decade or so to train the first wizard.

[Psyren]

And it would probably take a decade or so to train the first wizard.

Who said it has to be a wizard? I'll dedicate myself to a philosophy and be a cleric, easy.
Besides, as pointed out, in both 3.5 and Pathfinder Earth is considered to have the Dead Magic trait unless we're homebrewing.

[Rynjin]

Pathfinder Earth definitely is not Dead Magic, otherwise Razputin wouldn't be an Oracle.

[Zanos]

Who said it has to be a wizard? I'll dedicate myself to a philosophy and be a cleric, easy.
Besides, as pointed out, in both 3.5 and Pathfinder Earth is considered to have the Dead Magic trait unless we're homebrewing.

I think it is pretty safe to assume that Earth is not dead magic in this context considering that was not part of the scenario outlined by the OP and for the OP to function we have to assume it's not.

Interesting - it doesn't exactly make sense with the "have control over their spawn" part though, since the progenitor Shadow could tell the others to **** off. "Sibling" or "cousin" shadows could come into conflict though.

It occurs to me that if Shadows mainly regard their spawn as a nuisance, you might get a pattern of alternating behavior between roaming and lurking -
Shadow 1: In the course of wandering around, makes a spawn, and tells it to stay put so it won't follow and be competition.
Shadow 2: Is now stuck in that area, but eventually a traveller comes by and gets eaten. The new spawn is told to "bugger off".
Shadow 3: Is a wandering Shadow like its grandparent, and will probably make more stationary Shadows.

Since the wandering ones find more prey, the majority of Shadows are stationary, but the majority of people killed is by the wandering ones. When a wandering Shadow dies, a bunch of its stationary spawn become mobile.

One possible interpretation. I think it's also possible that Shadows simple don't really consider long term when spawning, commanding spawn, or freeing spawn, and come into conflict with them down the line.

[Psyren]

I think it is pretty safe to assume that Earth is not dead magic in this context considering that was not part of the scenario outlined by the OP and for the OP to function we have to assume it's not.

Pathfinder Earth definitely is not Dead Magic, otherwise Razputin wouldn't be an Oracle.

Great! Not only magic but oracles. That shadow is screwed.

[Dalmosh]

Depending how you interpret "force", which does interact with incorporeal entities, there is some very expensive prototype tech that might at least be able to shield vehicles and important buildings, especially aided with someone who can craft magic items.
https://www.sciencealert.com/boeing-...st-shock-waves

What's the line between electricity and force? Probably up to you to decide.

[Quertus]

The easiest answer is to craft a Scroll of Sending, and use it (you can use it, right?) to get the attention of Quertus (my signature academia mage for whom this account is named), or anyone else willing and able to help.

Because the thought experiment is predicated on the idea that "even a single shadow" is functionally impossible to fight. With access to any magic (even level 1), that's no longer the case.

Jade is your friend.

Pretty sure it's because our plane has been explicitly visited in DnD materials in the past and it's a Dead Magic Plane.

Who said it has to be a wizard? I'll dedicate myself to a philosophy and be a cleric, easy.
Besides, as pointed out, in both 3.5 and Pathfinder Earth is considered to have the Dead Magic trait unless we're homebrewing.

Pathfinder Earth definitely is not Dead Magic, otherwise Razputin wouldn't be an Oracle.

Citation needed on Earth being dead magic. Canonically, it had varied from "low" to "normal" magic, with Elminster and… Baba Yaga… and Razputin?… all visiting / using magic on Earth.

[unseenmage]

...

Citation needed on Earth being dead magic. Canonically, it had varied from "low" to "normal" magic, with Elminster and… Baba Yaga… and Razputin?… all visiting / using magic on Earth.

PF's Baba Yaga and Rasputin are both from an alternate Earth with magic.

Elminster visited a dead magic Earth iirc, he's just so very very cool that he overcame such triviality.


For my purposes, and the purposes of this thread, Earth is dead magic and the homebrew Construct will first use PF tech to achieve wealth and superpowers, later adding magic and portals etc using PF tech as the driving force.

So I was kicking myself a bit for not recalling that incorporeal creatures wink out in antimagic (again, dead magic inherits from the antimagic field spell). I swear I used to know this kind of stuff. One wonders where all that info goes when its forgotten.

[Jack_Simth]

So I was kicking myself a bit for not recalling that incorporeal creatures wink out in antimagic (again, dead magic inherits from the antimagic field spell). I swear I used to know this kind of stuff. One wonders where all that info goes when its forgotten.

Pathfinder removed that clause from AMF, incidentally. They had it at the initial publish, but dropped it a few revisions in.