Rater Reads The Hobbit

[PontificatusRex]

I love the idea of Beorn as a big hairy Disney Princess.

[Rodin]

I love the idea of Beorn as a big hairy Disney Princess.

The movie Hobbit cutting Beorn's introduction to the dwarves is one of my larger complaints with the trilogy. It was one of my favorite parts of the book, and cutting it in favor of Legolas love triangle was infuriating. Plus movie Beorn is so far removed from book Beorn that it's hard to see them as the same character.

[pendell]

I see we skipped over the bit that Beorn captured a goblin and wolf , then interrogated them. Once they told all they knew, one's head went to decorate his house, while a wolf-skin is hung up. He killed his captives, in other words, and made grotesque trophies of them.

Beorn is Raaaacist with a capital R. And it's kind of bothersome that all you have to do to be his friend is be an enemy of goblins.

Beggars can't be choosers and a bear-man who's feeding you and loaning you ponies to send you on your way is infinitely preferable to being waylaid in the mountains with the intent of enslaving them in the mines for the rest of their lives. But even so it would be nice if there were a way to make this world better than it is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rater202]

I see we skipped over the bit that Beorn captured a goblin and wolf , then interrogated them. Once they told all they knew, one's head went to decorate his house, while a wolf-skin is hung up. He killed his captives, in other words, and made grotesque trophies of them.

Beorn is Raaaacist with a capital R. And it's kind of bothersome that all you have to do to be his friend is be an enemy of goblins.

Beggars can't be choosers and a bear-man who's feeding you and loaning you ponies to send you on your way is infinitely preferable to being waylaid in the mountains with the intent of enslaving them in the mines for the rest of their lives. But even so it would be nice if there were a way to make this world better than it is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I chalked that up to Beorn being, for all intents and purposes, one of the Fair Folk and moved on.

[Dexam]

I see we skipped over the bit that Beorn captured a goblin and wolf , then interrogated them. Once they told all they knew, one's head went to decorate his house, while a wolf-skin is hung up. He killed his captives, in other words, and made grotesque trophies of them.

Beorn is Raaaacist with a capital R. And it's kind of bothersome that all you have to do to be his friend is be an enemy of goblins.

Beggars can't be choosers and a bear-man who's feeding you and loaning you ponies to send you on your way is infinitely preferable to being waylaid in the mountains with the intent of enslaving them in the mines for the rest of their lives. But even so it would be nice if there were a way to make this world better than it is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Having recently re-read this (to my 10-year old), it's strongly implied that Beorn is semi-friendly with the men/women who live on the borders of the woods near Beorn's lands, and it's outright stated that the goblins and wargs regularly raid the woodfolk for slaves (and presumably food for the wargs). In fact, the death of the Great Goblin disrupted a massive raid the goblins had planned, which is just another reason why the goblins (and wargs) are so keen on hunting down the dwarves, Gandalf, and Bilbo.

So I read it as Beorn doesn't hate all goblins and wargs, he hates the Misty Mountains goblins and wargs because they kill his friendlier human neighbours and the animals that he cares about. I get the strong impression that had the dwarves (unknowingly) harmed one Beorn's animals, it'd be a dwarf head on a stick at the front gate.

[factotum]

Beorn is Raaaacist with a capital R. And it's kind of bothersome that all you have to do to be his friend is be an enemy of goblins.

Except, for that to be true, you'd have to prove that Beorn wouldn't do the same thing to someone who wasn't a goblin or wolf who tried to hurt him or his friends, and given his depiction in the book, I really don't think that's the case. As said above, the goblins of the Misty Mountains and their wolf allies commonly raid the farms of the Men who live west of Mirkwood, so Beorn already has reasons for them to be his enemy that have nothing to do with their race, creed or skin colour for that matter.

[Aedilred]

Well, technically orc *is* an English word, but it doesn't have anything to do with goblins, it's an old word for a whale derived from Latin and French.

I seem to remember a comment by Tolkien in one of the introductions referencing this, but saying that the word for whale was "ork" and specifically distinguishing it. I might be mistaken, of course - I forget whether it was the Hobbit or TLotR and I don't have a copy of either with me, but I remember some authorial comment on the subject of the existing word "ork" fairly clearly.

[PontificatusRex]

Beorn is Raaaacist with a capital R. And it's kind of bothersome that all you have to do to be his friend is be an enemy of goblins.

So, I think there is a profound disconnect between fantasy and reality ethics here. Yes, in the real world to judge a person - or an animal, as in western culture's longstanding hatred of wolves - in such a way is horrible, but this is a fantasy world where whole species really are out and out evil. They were made into what the are by the Middle Earth equivalent of Satan, and if you encounter one the only reason they won't kill or enslave you is because they don't think they'll have an easy win and they'll try later if they get the chance. It's not like modern D&D where orcs and goblins are much more nuanced and resemble functional real-life societies and peaceful coexistence is possible.

As has been pointed out, this is a world with one foot firmly planted in the Fairy Tale world, and in Fairy Tales people engage in all sorts of actions that would be totally wrong in the real world but appropriate in the story.

[Taevyr]

So, I think there is a profound disconnect between fantasy and reality ethics here. Yes, in the real world to judge a person - or an animal, as in western culture's longstanding hatred of wolves - in such a way is horrible, but this is a fantasy world where whole species really are out and out evil. They were made into what the are by the Middle Earth equivalent of Satan, and if you encounter one the only reason they won't kill or enslave you is because they don't think they'll have an easy win and they'll try later if they get the chance. It's not like modern D&D where orcs and goblins are much more nuanced and resemble functional real-life societies and peaceful coexistence is possible.

As has been pointed out, this is a world with one foot firmly planted in the Fairy Tale world, and in Fairy Tales people engage in all sorts of actions that would be totally wrong in the real world but appropriate in the story.

I wouldn't say either racism or "they're just made evil" are really at play here: as Dexam said, the mountain goblins are known for launching regular raids on the woods and human settlements in the area, and their warg allies do the same and hunt the creatures of the woods indiscriminately. Beorn, being both semi-friendly with the nearby humans and caring a lot for the local creatures (being one himself, to boot), logically doesn't like them that much. Hell, his treatment of the dwarves implicate that he'd treat them the same if they harmed his ponies or tried to abuse his hospitality.

I wouldn't call him "good" per se, especially to modern notions of morality, but I wouldn't say it's racism or "just eliminating evil" since he'd probably do the same to any non-goblin/warg that harms "his" people/beasts.

[Fyraltari]

It wasn't a random goblin and a random warg he snatched from their home either, these were soldiers looking for Thorin's party.

[pendell]

Good answers, don't have time to properly engage just now. But a random thought: Is Beorn why werebears were chaotic good in the earliest D&D? I remember that werewolves were lawful evil, regardless of their previous alignment when they were humans, and wererats were similarly some evil variant. Wearbears, by contrast, are chaotic good. I wonder if they had someone like Beorn in mind.

... which undercuts the point about racism, but original D&D was written in the 1970s, when we looked at the issues in a different light.

.. well, okay, we DIDN'T really view them all that differently. I lived in the 70s and I remember. The thing was, at the time goblins and wargs weren't viewed as analogies to real-world human beings. Their analog in the modern world would be zombies -- fantasy creatures who are all evil and exhibit our worst character traits, "monsters" whom the hero is supposed to overcome.

Even in the 70s, we agreed that different humans should not be treated unequally based on the color of their skin or their eye color. You can even see this in the Lord of the Rings where elves and dwarves have to look beyond their differences to make lifelong friendships, where before there was only distrust and enmity. The whole vignette of Gimli in Lothlorien is a story of Gimli confronting the bigotry of the elves, who refuse to trust him and force him to walk blindfold as if he were an enemy prisoner.

There's a lot about racism and bigotry in Tolkien's works if you know where to look. It's just that goblins weren't the creatures he was using to tell that story. They were , in modern terms, the zombies whose sole purpose is to menace the heroes and not be reachable with reason.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[PontificatusRex]

Good answers, don't have time to properly engage just now. But a random thought: Is Beorn why werebears were chaotic good in the earliest D&D?

I have no doubt that Gygax was inspired by Beorn when he wrote up Werebears for D&D. It's not as obvious as halflngs, orcs, and treants as far as "lifted from Tolkien" goes, but I can't imagine what else could have inspired it.

If you read the classic fantasy novels - the ones cited as inspiration in the 1st Edition DMG - you'll discover a lot of examples of things Gygax directly inserted into the game. D&D's version of the troll is exactly like the troll encountered in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (which also probably inspired the D&D version of gnomes), wererats are straight out of Fritz Lieber's Swords of Lankhmar, etc.

There's a lot about racism and bigotry in Tolkien's works if you know where to look.

One of my favorite scenes in LOTR is Sam seeing his first battle between men, Gondorians vs Southrons, and Sam being struck by the tragedy and sadness of it all.

[Rodin]

I'd also say that werebears don't come with the same cultural baggage that either werewolves or wererats have. Werewolves have precursors as evil creatures from waaayyy before Tolkien. People getting changed into wolves as punishment from the gods goes back to Greek times, and the "modern" werewolves still pre-date Tolkien by a good 500 years. Wererats don't have the same mythology behind them (at least, I don't think so), but rats have a lot of bad juju that makes anything rat-related pretty likely to be evil.

Bears on the other hand got off pretty lightly in the "scary mythological predators" department. They're generally more associated with nature and bears are rarely shown as evil creatures - certainly far less than more common creatures like horses. Seriously, the Greeks loved making their horses man-eating, fire breathing, or otherwise destructive forces of nature. Meanwhile the only time I've seen bears come up has been Hera turning one of Zeus's many conquests into a bear, because the Greek gods are a bunch of giant *******s. In that story the lady who got transformed did nothing wrong and is more of a tragic figure than anything.

Beorn therefore was probably a blending of the nature myths around bears (focusing on motherhood and caring), the "wild man" archetype, and various myths about skinchangers among the Fair Folk. This results in the Beorn we see - a supremely kind and peaceful man in total harmony with nature...right up until you piss him off, where he goes beast mode and becomes scary enough that even raiding parties of goblins don't want to mess with him.

None of this precludes Gygax lifting were-bears straight from Tolkien - I'm sure Tolkien influenced him just as much as he did the rest of us.

[Eldan]

There's actually a few werebears in the Norse Sagas.
Edit: Bödvar Bjarki. That’s the name I was looking for.

[Rater202]

I'm probably going to change up the format of this a bit.

Read the chapter in its entirety and then only then begin writing on my thoughts on the chapter.

Mostly because thoughts as I go is making this take longer than it has any right to be and as much as I'm enjoying the book it's starting to feel like a chore.

And reading has never felt like a chore for me, so...

Thoughts on the next chapter will be sometime within the next 46 hours.

Semi-related, reading this has inspired some bits of creativity for my own amateur writing.

[Fyraltari]

I'm probably going to change up the format of this a bit.

Read the chapter in its entirety and then only then begin writing on my thoughts on the chapter.

Mostly because thoughts as I go is making this take longer than it has any right to be and as much as I'm enjoying the book it's starting to feel like a chore.

And reading has never felt like a chore for me, so...

Thoughts on the next chapter will be sometime within the next 46 hours.

Semi-related, reading this has inspired some bits of creativity for my own amateur writing.

I don't know if that would work for you, but for "my" The Clone Wars thread, I watch each episode in one go then, when I make the forum post, I rewatch it and write the post as I go along.

[PontificatusRex]

I'm probably going to change up the format of this a bit.

Read the chapter in its entirety and then only then begin writing on my thoughts on the chapter.

Mostly because thoughts as I go is making this take longer than it has any right to be and as much as I'm enjoying the book it's starting to feel like a chore.

You definitely should do whatever makes this exercise fun for you, for sure. That's why we're here, right? I will say I have really enjoyed reading your comments as you go, not knowing what's coming up on the next page - it's the closest we can get to reading it for the first time ourselves. So thank you for that.

[Rater202]

Chapter VIII: Fliies and spiders...

...ya~ay

Spoiler: Thoughts

Show

The forest is dark as all hell.

...So I had to google if black squirrels were a thing. Despite living in a squirrel-filled area I have never seen one in real life before.

I learned something today.



(the preceding video was linked unironically.)

I'm guessing most arachnophobes skip this chapter. Not even one page in and Tolkien's descriptive prose goes on about the cobwebs.

It's gotta suck to be outside and yet begin to feel sensations of claustrophobia. This forest sounds like hell.

The struggles to get the boat provide much-needed comic relief after the thorough uncleanness given by the description of the eyes and the others and the bats. At least that's my take on it.

Don't you hate it when a deer comes out of nowhere and knocks you into the enchanted black river that puts you in a coma?

As the dwarves waste their arrows on white der while Bombur is dead to the world, I can't help but note that the map in the back shows that there was a proper road clear through the Mirkwood that doesn't cross the enchanted river or the forest river or the Mirkwood mountain or any of the areas labeled with spider symbols and honestly seems closer to Beorn's home than what seems to be the path our party took. The path on the other side would have been longer, but actually getting to and then through the dangerous enchanted forest would have been faster and easier. Does that come up later?

Creepy laughter is creepy.

The forest never ends.

Bombur wakes up and has lost months of memory. That is... That is the single most terrifying thing in the entire book so far.

We are the product of our experiences. To lose such a large chunk of memory in such a way is a grievous wound to one's very identity.

...Bombur's dream is giving me fair folk vibes.

The elves of the Murkwood are either really skittish, or they're trolls.

The trolling by the elves eventually gets our party separated, and Bilbo is caught in a giant Spider-Web.

And Bilbo easily kills the spider with his elven-made blade.

killing the spider does wonders for the smol hairy fat man's confidence. He gives his blade the name "sting," which fits quite well with "Beater" and "Biter," the names the goblins give to the other prominent elf-made weapons in this story. Coincidence?

The Spiders can talk. With the trolls earlier, it made the monsters less threatening and more whimsical that they spoke as common men did and had mundane names, but these spiders are just... It just makes them far more monstrous. I wonder why I have such differing reactions.

We then get a sequence of Bilbo rescuing the dwarves from the spiders, complete with yet more songs, where he shows cunning, skill at throwing, impressive dexterity... Obviously using the Ring to stay hidden from sight is helping him a lot, and the Ring is probably boosting his other traits considerably, but still, this a major moment for Bilbo.

This is the chapter where he graduates from a drag-along who just barely escapes danger with his life to a proper adventurer imbued with heroic qualities.

Huh, the Ring doesn't make Sting invisible? Interesting.

After leading the spiders far away from their territory, Bilbo rushes back, kills the one that stayed back to guard the dwarves, and begins cutting them loose.

The Spiders come back, however, before escape can happen. When poor Bombur, who has just been put through the wringer in this chapter, is recaptured, Bilbo just starts slaughtering Spiders in order to rescue him and successfully does so.

Battle, more spiders are slaughtered, but there's too many of them. Bilbo lets the dwarves know of the Ring and vanishes before repeating his earlier plan to confuse and infuriate the spiders, which allows the Dwarves to counterattack and escape.

Just as they are about to be recaptured, Bibo reappears and starts slaughtering spiders once more. The spiders, now terrified of Sting, hesitate and ultimately give up the chase allowing our party to escape for good, though Bilbo is left exhausted.

They find a relatively safe place to rest, recuperate... And realize that Thorin is missing.

I'll admit, in the excitement, I did not notice despite it being obvious in hindsight.

We are quickly told of Thorin being captured, after falling into an enchanted sleep, by the Wood-elves and ae then told of the Wood Elves and how they differ from other types of elves.

Despite being referred to as Good People, however, it becomes readily apparent that they're kind of *******s. Considering that the differing accounts of the dwarves and elves reading the seizing of treasure is immediately followed by an objective statement that the Elf King is greedy and that Thorin's family had nothing to do with that conflict and yet thorin is ill-treated for it anyway, I'm inclined to side with the Dwarves on this one.

I'm guessing that the Wood Elf King's actions are where the stereotype of elves being haughty, elitist, entitled asshats comes from.

[Peelee]

Don't you hate it when a deer comes out of nowhere

YES.

I hate deer.

[factotum]

Regarding the bit about the road, I'm sure that was mentioned in a previous chapter? IIRC, Beorn advised them to *not* use the main forest road because of some sort of problem at the far end.

[Khedrac]

Regarding the bit about the road, I'm sure that was mentioned in a previous chapter? IIRC, Beorn advised them to *not* use the main forest road because of some sort of problem at the far end.

Exactly - the end of the main road now ends in swamp.

Despite being referred to as Good People, however, it becomes readily apparent that they're kind of *******s. Considering that the differing accounts of the dwarves and elves reading the seizing of treasure is immediately followed by an objective statement that the Elf King is greedy and that Thorin's family had nothing to do with that conflict and yet thorin is ill-treated for it anyway, I'm inclined to side with the Dwarves on this one.

As I mentioned (spoilered I hope) earlier the Wood Elves here have had the agents of the Necromancer nibbling at their borders for some time now - they are effectively partially in a state of sieges.
Whilst they don't act as nice people (and I agree, a lot of their actions are very questionable) if you think about their situation a lot of their behaviour makes sense.

I'm guessing that the Wood Elf King's actions are where the stereotype of elves being haughty, elitist, entitled asshats comes from.

Not solely, I think this has a lot of sources.

Picking up on what you said about links to traditional tales of Faerie, the white hart that ploughs through them and then leads them on a merry dance is straight out of such tales of elf-lands.

[Fyraltari]

It's gotta suck to be outside and yet begin to feel sensations of claustrophobia. This forest sounds like hell.

The professor actually loved the woods and forests, but when you write a book based on faerie stories, you have to make the woods dark and meancing. It's in the user's agreement.

As the dwarves waste their arrows on white der while Bombur is dead to the world, I can't help but note that the map in the back shows that there was a proper road clear through the Mirkwood that doesn't cross the enchanted river or the forest river or the Mirkwood mountain or any of the areas labeled with spider symbols and honestly seems closer to Beorn's home than what seems to be the path our party took. The path on the other side would have been longer, but actually getting to and then through the dangerous enchanted forest would have been faster and easier. Does that come up later?

Like the others said, in the previous chapter. The narration talk about this: the road is abandoned (it most likely was created by the dwarves to connect the Lonely Mountain to their other cities in the Blue Mountains), also full of dangers and it leads to swamps that are way off South of the Mountain.

Bombur wakes up and has lost months of memory. That is... That is the single most terrifying thing in the entire book so far.

We are the product of our experiences. To lose such a large chunk of memory in such a way is a grievous wound to one's very identity.

Let's not overstate things, I don't recall Bombur's exact age, but I think he's at least a hundred-year old. Missing a couple months isn't going to change him very much.

The elves of the Murkwood are either really skittish, or they're trolls.

Yes, they are.

killing the spider does wonders for the smol hairy fat man's confidence. He gives his blade the name "sting," which fits quite well with "Beater" and "Biter," the names the goblins give to the other prominent elf-made weapons in this story. Coincidence?

I mean, yes. The spiders were the ones who called it a sting first. By analogy with their own (unspidery) stings.

The Spiders can talk. With the trolls earlier, it made the monsters less threatening and more whimsical that they spoke as common men did and had mundane names, but these spiders are just... It just makes them far more monstrous. I wonder why I have such differing reactions.

One of the very few things I like about the Jackson The Hobbit films is the idea to have the spiders only be understandable once Bilbo puts on the Ring.

We then get a sequence of Bilbo rescuing the dwarves from the spiders, complete with yet more songs, where he shows cunning, skill at throwing, impressive dexterity... Obviously using the Ring to stay hidden from sight is helping him a lot, and the Ring is probably boosting his other traits considerably, but still, this a major moment for Bilbo.

Besides the invisibility, I doubt the Ring is doing anything. Bilbo is not its Master and it would probably benefit from one of the spiders picking it up and trying to set herself up as Queen of Myrkwood. Also, in the original version the Ring was just an invisibility ring, as you know. This is all Bilbo.

Huh, the Ring doesn't make Sting invisible? Interesting.

Huh? I don't remember that. There's precedent but I don't see why the blade wouldn't be invisible.

The Spiders come back, however, before escape can happen. When poor Bombur, who has just been put through the wringer in this chapter, is recaptured

Bombur is very much the "unlucky comic-relief" dwarf. Don't think that his obesity is unrelated to that either.

Despite being referred to as Good People, however, it becomes readily apparent that they're kind of *******s. Considering that the differing accounts of the dwarves and elves reading the seizing of treasure is immediately followed by an objective statement that the Elf King is greedy and that Thorin's family had nothing to do with that conflict and yet thorin is ill-treated for it anyway, I'm inclined to side with the Dwarves on this one.

I'm guessing that the Wood Elf King's actions are where the stereotype of elves being haughty, elitist, entitled asshats comes from.

Yeah, this isn't Thranduil's (he's only named in the sequel) best moment there. Him being something of a clone of another of Tolkien's elfkings with even more hang-ups (Elu Thingol) does not help.

No, I think that trope is a reaction to the all-too-common: wiser, more beautiful, more powerful, author-mouthpieces portrayal the elves would later get.

(With that said, some of Tolkien's elves are definitely haughty, elitists, entitled asshats, heh, Fëanorians?)

[Rater202]

Like the others said, in the previous chapter. The narration talk about this: the road is abandoned (it most likely was created by the dwarves to connect the Lonely Mountain to their other cities in the Blue Mountains), also full of dangers and it leads to swamps that are way off South of the Mountain.

Yeah, I probably should have read these chapters back to back. I'm guessing the map in the back is meant to be outdated by this time.

Let's not overstate things, I don't recall Bombur's exact age, but I think he's at least a hundred-year old. Missing a couple months isn't going to change him very much.

A grievous wound that you survive is still a grievous wound.

I mean, yes. The spiders were the ones who called it a sting first. By analogy with their own (unspidery) stings.

I may have overlooked that, but Bilbo naming it such seems to come before the reveal that the Spiders can talk.

Huh? I don't remember that. There's precedent but I don't see why the blade wouldn't be invisible.

we are explicitly told that the spiders can see the blade while Biblo is still invisibly luring them away.[/quote]

Don't think that his obesity is unrelated to that either.

Damn it.

No, I think that trope is a reaction to the all-too-common: wiser, more beautiful, more powerful, author-mouthpieces portrayal the elves would later get.

It can easily be both. Whenever someone starts fawning over a character I don't care for and downplaying their negative traits my instinct is to remind them that the character is kind of an asshat.

[factotum]

Let's not overstate things, I don't recall Bombur's exact age, but I think he's at least a hundred-year old. Missing a couple months isn't going to change him very much.

Nearer 200, I think--Fili and Kili are supposed to be the youngest of the dwarves by "some fifty years", and IIRC Fili was born in 2859 (according to LOTR appendices), around 150 years before the tale begins.

[Keltest]

YES.

I hate deer.

*laughs in Pennsylvanian*

We have a deer problem, is what im saying.

[Peelee]

A grievous wound that you survive is still a grievous wound.

I agree with Fyraltari. Heck, I'm significantly younger and losing the last few months wouldn't change me in any way. This is hardly a grievous wound. It wound suck, sure, but I think you're overstating things.

*laughs in Pennsylvanian*

We have a deer problem, is what im saying.

I'm not trying to make this a contest, just trying to empathize - at least twice I nearly ran into a deer in my subdivision. At my parents house (still upset at needing to sell that, btw) it went undiminished to just look out the bedroom window and see em in the backyard. Too many deer too close to roads.

[Rater202]

I agree with Fyraltari. Heck, I'm significantly younger and losing the last few months wouldn't change me in any way. This is hardly a grievous wound. It wound suck, sure, but I think you're overstating things.

And I feel differently.

To me, the thought of forgetting so much, of losing bits and pieces of your mind and being unable to get it back, is terrifying.

It is quite literally the worst thing I can think of.

[Peelee]

And I feel differently.

To me, the thought of forgetting so much, of losing bits and pieces of your mind and being unable to get it back, is terrifying.

It is quite literally the worst thing I can think of.

And if it happened to you I would understand that. But this is happening to Bombur. How he feels about it is the important thing here.

[Wintermoot]

So, interesting aside on the Mirkwood Elves,

When I was growing up, some strange alchemy of reading these books and watching the rankin bass animation left me with the impression that Mirkwood elves were physically different than normal elves. The sickness of Mirkwood had seeped into their bones and so they were twisted versions of elves, grey, wrinkled skin, yellow eyes, weird proportions.

So when I got older and started playing D&D, that was also how I saw Drow even though Drow were described as black-skinned and beautiful. The image of corrupted Mirkwood elves persisted.

Fast forward to the first lord of the rings movie and I'm complaining to my friends how I was upset that Legolas was just a normal elf and not a corrupted mirkwood elf like he should've been.

Only to discover that none of them had that impression. So I went back and reread the book and... yup... just in my brain.

However, I then met TWO others who ALSO had that same mindworm from their childhood. They both also thought the same and none of us can trace it back to what magic caused all three of us to form the same mistaken impression.

[Keltest]

Mirkwood is just gross. No real mystery there. It follows that the elves should also be gross, especially given how they behave in this book.

Having said that, i think Legolas and Thranduil come from different stock from the Sylvan Elves anyway. I cant remember which flavor of elf they are other than that they arent Sylvan.