Rater Reads The Hobbit

[Peelee]

Gandalf is a very old man with all the coolness and the crankiness that implies.


These three simply don't fit with how trolls behave in the other texts. They are very much more fairy-tale trolls than fantasy trolls, if you catch my meaning.




Long story short, after her husband's pet project (the dwarves) got greenlit by the Big Guy Upstairs, Yavanna Kementari, Valië of Life (both vegetal and animal) complained that that made yet another race that would cut and burn trees and hunt animals and all that on top of the Dark Lord doing his thing, so she was granted the right to craft some protectors for her wards.



Yes. In fairness, This tends to happen with stories focused on a trip to a certain place (Exhibit A: The Odyssey.)

Exhibit B: Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle.

Truly it is a convention that spans the ages.

[DataNinja]

Which makes sense. Tolkien wrote this as a bedtime story for his children, so... so far each chapter feels like its own story. Like an episode of a serial...

I've heard it said that, while he did run the story by his children, he always had an intention of writing it as a novel. It's just something that he said given that... well, writing "fairy-tales" for anyone but children wasn't exactly seen as a spectacularly noble calling for a writer, especially one of his age. As far as I understand it, at least.

[PontificatusRex]

... Only for the dwarves to start wandering in and immediately be captured one by one. At least Torn was able to put up a fight.

I have to say, this is one of the only bits where I thought the Jackson movie was better than the book (in general, I liked the first half of the first movie very much, then it went downhill in a massive way super quickly). Even as a kid I was all "WHY are the dwarves doing this? 'Oh, that guy didn't come back, let's just send ANOTHER unarmed lone guy to see what's up!' "

As an adult I know it's kind of a humorous motif that Tolkien repeated - the dwarves showing up one by one with other folks being reacting all "What, ANOTHER one?" But it really just made no sense in this instance. I don't know if Rater has caught on to this yet, but:

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The dwarves in the book start out on this quest completely unarmed. They're heading out across hundreds of miles of wild, dangerous territory with a dragon waiting at the end, and no one has anything more dangerous than a pocket knife on them.

I really appreciate that Jackson actually gave them enough sense to start out with weapons, and that they were all good warriors - the type you'd pick out to go on a dangerous quest with. Tolkien's depiction is more about using them for comic effect most of the time, except for Thorin. It's Gandalf's then Bilbo's job to get them out of trouble.

[Gnoman]

Also, Gandalf is more of a jerk than I've been lead to believe. For all that I find it amusing, I must note that in Bilbo's position I'd be mighty tempted to shove my non-existent boot up the wizard's ass.

Think the intention here is that Gandalf knows just how sedentary and settled Bilbo really is at heart. It is going to take a massive kick in the rear to get Bilbo moving, so Gandalf delivers it.

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The dwarves in the book start out on this quest completely unarmed. They're heading out across hundreds of miles of wild, dangerous territory with a dragon waiting at the end, and no one has anything more dangerous than a pocket knife on them.

I really appreciate that Jackson actually gave them enough sense to start out with weapons, and that they were all good warriors - the type you'd pick out to go on a dangerous quest with. Tolkien's depiction is more about using them for comic effect most of the time, except for Thorin. It's Gandalf's then Bilbo's job to get them out of trouble.

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It is pretty clear that the Dwarves had no real idea what they were doing. I think they say as much at the Party, but it is incredibly obvious once they find the door and Bilbo realizes how stupid the idea of burglarizing Smaug's hoard really is.

[Peelee]

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It is pretty clear that the Dwarves had no real idea what they were doing. I think they say as much at the Party, but it is incredibly obvious once they find the door and Bilbo realizes how stupid the idea of burglarizing Smaug's hoard really is.

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It's not even burglarizing the hoard. The Dwarves' entire point was that it's time for them to move back into Erebor. How is a burglar supposed to help with that?

[Keltest]

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Its at least implied that the dwarves were hoping and wanting Gandalf to help them kill the dragon, even though he said he had other business to take care of.

[Corvus]

The creation of the Ents is covered in The Silmarillion. Aule (The Middle-Earth Hephasestus) was impatient to begin teaching others his skills, and so made the dwarves without his wife Yavanna's knowledge. When Eru (basically God) came to talk to him about it, Aule repented and offered to destroy the dwarves as they weren't alive, but Eru gave them life instead, on the understanding they would be sent to sleep until after the elves had been created, who were to be Eru's firstborn.

When Yavanna, whose spheres were animals and plants, heard this, she was disturbed, as she worried her children would be hunted or chopped down by the new races. The animals could at least flee, but the trees, who took long to grow and couldn't move, had no means of escape. And so Eru allowed her to make the Ents to shepherd the woods, but as Aule said the elves and dwarves and humans would still be needing wood.

[factotum]

It is actually kind of endearing just how generally useless the dwarves in The Hobbit are. They couldn't have been less prepared for this journey, and it really shows in what happens along the way.

The troll thing is one of the parts that fits least well into Tolkien's legendarium generally--they don't act or speak like trolls we see anywhere else. And where they came by the loot they had, well, who knows?

[Rater202]

It is actually kind of endearing just how generally useless the dwarves in The Hobbit are. They couldn't have been less prepared for this journey, and it really shows in what happens along the way.

The troll thing is one of the parts that fits least well into Tolkien's legendarium generally--they don't act or speak like trolls we see anywhere else. And where they came by the loot they had, well, who knows?

PResumably from the villagers and travelers who passed through before people started to wise up and avoid the area.

It is noted that the trolls have eaten several men and man-sized tools and clothes are strewed among the bones in the cave.

An, as an aside... No, I did not realize that the dwarves were all unarmed. The stereotype of dwarves carrying axes or hammers everywhere is so ingrained in my mind that I just assumed they all had a weapon on them.

[Peelee]

PResumably from the villagers and travelers who passed through before people started to wise up and avoid the area.

It is noted that the trolls have eaten several men and man-sized tools and clothes are strewed among the bones in the cave.

An, as an aside... No, I did not realize that the dwarves were all unarmed. The stereotype of dwarves carrying axes or hammers everywhere is so ingrained in my mind that I just assumed they all had a weapon on them.

They all do have instruments, if they were to choose to go the El Kabong route.

[Fyraltari]

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It's not even burglarizing the hoard. The Dwarves' entire point was that it's time for them to move back into Erebor. How is a burglar supposed to help with that?

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No, no, they did hire him to steal the treasure. They had absolutely no plan about how to deal with the dragon in any way.

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Spoiler: Pontificatus

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Are you sure they left unarmed? I remember thel losing their bagagges/ponies several times, didn't they lose their weapons too?

[Peelee]

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No, no, they did hire him to steal the treasure. They had absolutely no plan about how to deal with the dragon in any way.

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The didn't even think to hire him until they met Gandalf, though, and they were already set on their quest then. And even then, Thorin almost skipped Bilbo's house, IIRC.

[Khedrac]

Either Middle Earth is very small, or the paragraph describing their travel through different lands is to emphasize that they've been on the road a long time. I feel tired and slightly anxious just reading it. A feeling that only get worse in the following paragraph.

One of the things that every interpretation of Middle Earth I have ever seen gets wrong is how populated the lands are (well the lands west of the ford). Although nothing makes it on to the map (other than Bree in The Lord of the Rings) the text of The Hobbit is clear that the whole area is fairly well settled, just the quality of accomodations varies but it is not wilderness.
(Peter Jackson is probably the worst with the lovely aerial shots of them walking through pristine wilderness while they are supposed to following the main road.) I missed it until my last re-reading of The Hobbit earlier this year.

The Lord of the Rings has an excuse for missing all the settlements - Strider leads them on route specifically to avoid all of them, and Tolkein did not like crowding his maps with unimportant details - but anyone thinking about the implications of the text (in all the books) especially the fallen realm of Arnor should be able to see that the lands are populated.

This may also be a factor in the lack of weapons at this stage of the journey (something I had missed) - why bring weapons to a trip through civilized lands when one can acquire them later?

[Fyraltari]

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The didn't even think to hire him until they met Gandalf, though, and they were already set on their quest then. And even then, Thorin almost skipped Bilbo's house, IIRC.

This does not contradict what I said in any way?

One of the things that every interpretation of Middle Earth I have ever seen gets wrong is how populated the lands are (well the lands west of the ford). Although nothing makes it on to the map (other than Bree in The Lord of the Rings) the text of The Hobbit is clear that the whole area is fairly well settled, just the quality of accomodations varies but it is not wilderness.
(Peter Jackson is probably the worst with the lovely aerial shots of them walking through pristine wilderness while they are supposed to following the main road.) I missed it until my last re-reading of The Hobbit earlier this year.

The Lord of the Rings has an excuse for missing all the settlements - Strider leads them on route specifically to avoid all of them, and Tolkein did not like crowding his maps with unimportant details - but anyone thinking about the implications of the text (in all the books) especially the fallen realm of Arnor should be able to see that the lands are populated.

This may also be a factor in the lack of weapons at this stage of the journey (something I had missed) - why bring weapons to a trip through civilized lands when one can acquire them later?

If memory serves, Weathertop is said to literally be the only named place between Bree and Rivendell.

Edit: Also Bree is very tiny and by all account always was, despite sitting at the crossing points of the two biggest roads of this part of the continent.

[Khedrac]

If memory serves, Weathertop is said to literally be the only named place between Bree and Rivendell.

Edit: Also Bree is very tiny and by all account always was, despite sitting at the crossing points of the two biggest roads of this part of the continent.

They may not be named, but:

Things went on like this for quite a long while. There was a good deal of wide respectable country to pass through, inhabited by decent respectable folk, men or hobbits or elves or what not, with good roads, an inn or two, and every now and then a dwarf, or a tinker, or a farmer ambling by on business. But after a time they came to places where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before. Inns were rare and not good, the roads were worse, and there were hills in the distance rising higher and higher. There were castles on some of the hills, and many looked as if they had not been built for any good purpose. Also the weather which had often been as good as May can be, even in tales and legends, took a nasty turn.

So, how long was the journey covered in this paragraph?
Well the comment is made on May 31st (they day they later meet the trolls). so the question is when did they start out?
This is less clear, but during the party it is said that Thrain "went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday" so the departure (the next day) is in the week ending 28th April.
The party is probably on a Wednesday since Bilbo "did not remember things very well, unless he put them down on his Engagement Tablet: like this: Gandalf Tea Wednesday"; hence the departure is probably on the 28th itself.

Thus the party spend 33 days travelling East from Hobbiton before they run out of civilized lands and meet the trolls. I agree that Weathertop is the only place named, and it is not a settlement, but the whole area is fairly well settled - it takes the skill of the Dunedain to travel through the lands without meeting people or being seen.

[Sapphire Guard]

Stealing treasure is still a better idea than trying to slay a dragon. They're not trying to fight.

There are more settlements in Middle Earth than are on the map, but there are a lot of wildernesses too. Arnor was destroyed by plague IIRC?

[factotum]

Thus the party spend 33 days travelling East from Hobbiton before they run out of civilized lands and meet the trolls. I agree that Weathertop is the only place named, and it is not a settlement, but the whole area is fairly well settled - it takes the skill of the Dunedain to travel through the lands without meeting people or being seen.

It's also worth noting that Elrond's house in Rivendell is called "The Last Homely House" in The Hobbit, but that would kind of be a weird name if there was nothing but unpopulated wasteland in every direction from it--there must be other homely houses somewhere around there, and they certainly aren't eastward of it because that's the goblin-infested Misty Mountains!

[Fyraltari]

They may not be named, but:


So, how long was the journey covered in this paragraph?
Well the comment is made on May 31st (they day they later meet the trolls). so the question is when did they start out?
This is less clear, but during the party it is said that Thrain "went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday" so the departure (the next day) is in the week ending 28th April.
The party is probably on a Wednesday since Bilbo "did not remember things very well, unless he put them down on his Engagement Tablet: like this: Gandalf Tea Wednesday"; hence the departure is probably on the 28th itself.

Thus the party spend 33 days travelling East from Hobbiton before they run out of civilized lands and meet the trolls. I agree that Weathertop is the only place named, and it is not a settlement, but the whole area is fairly well settled - it takes the skill of the Dunedain to travel through the lands without meeting people or being seen.

I stand corrected.

Stealing treasure is still a better idea than trying to slay a dragon. They're not trying to fight.

There are more settlements in Middle Earth than are on the map, but there are a lot of wildernesses too. Arnor was destroyed by plague IIRC?

A combo of war, plague and the undead courtesy of the Witch-King of Angmar.

It's also worth noting that Elrond's house in Rivendell is called "The Last Homely House" in The Hobbit, but that would kind of be a weird name if there was nothing but unpopulated wasteland in every direction from it--there must be other homely houses somewhere around there, and they certainly aren't eastward of it because that's the goblin-infested Misty Mountains!

It's called "The Last Homely House West of the Wisty Mountains" so yes. South-East, actually, in Lothlorièn.

Edit: it's the last chronologically, not geographically, Sauron destroyed all the others.

[Sapphire Guard]

This... actually makes a surprising amount of sense. Arnor fell, but some people remain, some old fortresses are still inhabited, some old songs are remembered.

I didn't expect the worldbuilding to be so coherent.

The trolls are recent immigrants, 'Troll- country' is further north, but if they stumbled across some old treasure cache, it even makes sense to find the Gondolin relics.

[GloatingSwine]

I didn't expect the worldbuilding to be so coherent.

Especially since it wasn't supposed to be.

The Hobbit in its current form was actually retconned to being in Tolkien's created universe in order to better connect it to Lord of the Rings.

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If one could find a copy from before 1951, the scenes with Gollum would be absent.

[warty goblin]

Especially since it wasn't supposed to be.

The Hobbit in its current form was actually retconned to being in Tolkien's created universe in order to better connect it to Lord of the Rings.

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If one could find a copy from before 1951, the scenes with Gollum would be absent.

I believe it's actually a bit more complex than that

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Gollum was in the Hobbit originally. However, in that version he simply gave Bilbo the Ring when he lost the riddle game. Lord of the Rings retcons this into Bilbo finding the Ring prior to the riddle game. The original version then becomes Bilbo's lie to justify his possession of the Ring. It's a very Tolkien way to do a retcon, and since everything is within a frame narrative in some ways counts less as a retcon and more as simply differing texts.

[Tarmor]

The absence of weapons completely surprised me. I'm so used to Dwarves having at least axes with them from so many stories and portrayals. Some quick reading of The Hobbit suggests that they certainly had a lot of equipment at some stages - tools and a spade are mentioned in chapter 1. It looks like the first weapons mentioned are those claimed from the trolls. A fight much later in the book mentions "some had knives, some had sticks". Nice pickup Rater, I'd never noticed even after multiple readings of the book.

[factotum]

Well, I guess there really isn't much point in taking axes and swords when you have such a small group and your target is a dragon! There was no way they were ever going to defeat Smaug, hence the idea of thievery instead. I suspect the road eastward was simply a lot more dangerous than the dwarves gave it credit for--they'd spent almost their entire lives in the western mountains near the Shire, after all, which is pretty obviously a super safe place to be. (According to LOTR appendices Thorin led his people westwards when he was a sprightly young dwarf of only 53 years of age, and he's nearly 200 at the time of The Hobbit--a lot can change in more than a century).

[Rater202]

And after a brief delay, chapter 3: A Short Rest

Spoiler: As I Go

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And now the danger of the adventure feels real, turning the adventure into a more somber affair as characterized by the lack of music.

I notice that Hobits tend to think of things a "The Thing." Bilbo does not live under a hill, he lives under The Hill. Here, he asks if the first of the Misty Mountains they encounter is The Mountain.

Admittedly, he'd never seen a mountain before judging from his comments about its size.

But no, this isn't even the right mountain rage, they have to cross it and go on for some time before they can even get to Lonely Mountain.

Gandalf spells out that trying to navigate the Misty Mountains by any means but a properly supplied trek across the specified at will lead to either having to return to the beginning or death. How kind of the mountains to let you start from scratch. Most just kill you.

Luckily, Gandalf has friends nearby. Not so luckily, nearby is relative and it takes most of a day of arduous journey just to get to the last homely house.

Again, I just love Tolkien's descriptive prose.

...I did not know that heather was a type of flower.

"Smells like elves" is a very odd descriptor. What are elves supposed to smell like?

More music. With lyrics. And a reminder that the same word in the same language can have radically different meanings in a different time or place.

I like Bilbo's description of the elves. They seem otherworldly rather than just "better than you."

...If fourteen days is a short rest then I don't want to know what a long one is.

"Where did trolls get elven-forged swords?"
"Hell if I know."

And I presume that is the last of that.

I am disappointed that it's moon-letter and not moon-rune. Come on, make it rhyme.

Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?

Spoiler: In conclusion

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A shorter chapter than the first two... Not much happens really, Mostly just exposition and world-building.

It is quite literally a breather chapter.

[Fyraltari]

...If fourteen days is a short rest then I don't want to know what a long one is.

Honestly, Tolkien's heroes are about the chillest of all of fantasy.

Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?

Errr... I just checked my copy and it has Elrond not knowing and Thorin explaining.

Spoiler: In conclusion

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A shorter chapter than the first two... Not much happens really, Mostly just exposition and world-building.

It is quite literally a breather chapter.

Rivendell just sounds like such a nice place to go on vacation to and just leave all your worries at the door.

[Rater202]

Errr... I just checked my copy and it has Elrond not knowing and Thorin explaining.

I may have misunderstood, but as I read it it seemed that Thorin was explaining what Durin's day was before finishing that the means did not exist to determine when exactly it would be.

[Fyraltari]

I may have misunderstood, but as I read it it seemed that Thorin was explaining what Durin's day was before finishing that the means did not exist to determine when exactly it would be.

Checking back for more details:

The first day of the dwarves' New Year, as everyone ought to know, said Thorin, is the first day of the last autumn moon at the threshold of winter. It is also called Durin's Day when the last moon of autumn and the sun are together in the sky. But that will not be much help, I fear, for who can foretell nowadays when such a thing will happen?

So dwarven New Year always happen the last day before winter begins, but it is only called Durin's Day when the moon is visible during the day. Thorin knows well when New Year is going to be, but he can't tell whether it is going to be regular New Year or Durin's Day.

*Translated back from my French copy.

[Aeson]

Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?

If I recall correctly, he knows how to tell the day but not how to calculate when it will occur. It's essentially the dwarf Easter - an important day of the year for those to whom it matters, but unless you know how the Moon's phases relate to the vernal equinox and when the vernal equinox will occur you aren't going to be able to tell me when Easter is without looking it up.

[GloatingSwine]

They know how to tell the first day of the year, it's the first day of the last moon of autumn.

They don't know how to calculate whether that will also be Durin's Day, when the last moon of autumn and the sun are visible in the sky together.

[factotum]

I wouldn't call heather a flower, per se, but it does have flowers on it at the right time of year--a heather moor in full bloom is actually a real sight to see, especially considering how muted they are for the rest of the year.