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Thread: Rater Reads The Hobbit
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2021-07-23, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-23, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I've heard it said that, while he did run the story by his children, he always had an intention of writing it as a novel. It's just something that he said given that... well, writing "fairy-tales" for anyone but children wasn't exactly seen as a spectacularly noble calling for a writer, especially one of his age. As far as I understand it, at least.
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2021-07-23, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I have to say, this is one of the only bits where I thought the Jackson movie was better than the book (in general, I liked the first half of the first movie very much, then it went downhill in a massive way super quickly). Even as a kid I was all "WHY are the dwarves doing this? 'Oh, that guy didn't come back, let's just send ANOTHER unarmed lone guy to see what's up!' "
As an adult I know it's kind of a humorous motif that Tolkien repeated - the dwarves showing up one by one with other folks being reacting all "What, ANOTHER one?" But it really just made no sense in this instance. I don't know if Rater has caught on to this yet, but:
SpoilerThe dwarves in the book start out on this quest completely unarmed. They're heading out across hundreds of miles of wild, dangerous territory with a dragon waiting at the end, and no one has anything more dangerous than a pocket knife on them.
I really appreciate that Jackson actually gave them enough sense to start out with weapons, and that they were all good warriors - the type you'd pick out to go on a dangerous quest with. Tolkien's depiction is more about using them for comic effect most of the time, except for Thorin. It's Gandalf's then Bilbo's job to get them out of trouble.Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.
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2021-07-23, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Think the intention here is that Gandalf knows just how sedentary and settled Bilbo really is at heart. It is going to take a massive kick in the rear to get Bilbo moving, so Gandalf delivers it.
SpoilerIt is pretty clear that the Dwarves had no real idea what they were doing. I think they say as much at the Party, but it is incredibly obvious once they find the door and Bilbo realizes how stupid the idea of burglarizing Smaug's hoard really is.
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2021-07-23, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-07-23, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
SpoilerIts at least implied that the dwarves were hoping and wanting Gandalf to help them kill the dragon, even though he said he had other business to take care of.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-07-23, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
The creation of the Ents is covered in The Silmarillion. Aule (The Middle-Earth Hephasestus) was impatient to begin teaching others his skills, and so made the dwarves without his wife Yavanna's knowledge. When Eru (basically God) came to talk to him about it, Aule repented and offered to destroy the dwarves as they weren't alive, but Eru gave them life instead, on the understanding they would be sent to sleep until after the elves had been created, who were to be Eru's firstborn.
When Yavanna, whose spheres were animals and plants, heard this, she was disturbed, as she worried her children would be hunted or chopped down by the new races. The animals could at least flee, but the trees, who took long to grow and couldn't move, had no means of escape. And so Eru allowed her to make the Ents to shepherd the woods, but as Aule said the elves and dwarves and humans would still be needing wood.
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2021-07-23, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
It is actually kind of endearing just how generally useless the dwarves in The Hobbit are. They couldn't have been less prepared for this journey, and it really shows in what happens along the way.
The troll thing is one of the parts that fits least well into Tolkien's legendarium generally--they don't act or speak like trolls we see anywhere else. And where they came by the loot they had, well, who knows?
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2021-07-24, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
PResumably from the villagers and travelers who passed through before people started to wise up and avoid the area.
It is noted that the trolls have eaten several men and man-sized tools and clothes are strewed among the bones in the cave.
An, as an aside... No, I did not realize that the dwarves were all unarmed. The stereotype of dwarves carrying axes or hammers everywhere is so ingrained in my mind that I just assumed they all had a weapon on them.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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2021-07-24, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-24, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
SpoilerNo, no, they did hire him to steal the treasure. They had absolutely no plan about how to deal with the dragon in any way.
Edit:
Spoiler: PontificatusAre you sure they left unarmed? I remember thel losing their bagagges/ponies several times, didn't they lose their weapons too?Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-24 at 02:11 AM.
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2021-07-24, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-07-24, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
One of the things that every interpretation of Middle Earth I have ever seen gets wrong is how populated the lands are (well the lands west of the ford). Although nothing makes it on to the map (other than Bree in The Lord of the Rings) the text of The Hobbit is clear that the whole area is fairly well settled, just the quality of accomodations varies but it is not wilderness.
(Peter Jackson is probably the worst with the lovely aerial shots of them walking through pristine wilderness while they are supposed to following the main road.) I missed it until my last re-reading of The Hobbit earlier this year.
The Lord of the Rings has an excuse for missing all the settlements - Strider leads them on route specifically to avoid all of them, and Tolkein did not like crowding his maps with unimportant details - but anyone thinking about the implications of the text (in all the books) especially the fallen realm of Arnor should be able to see that the lands are populated.
This may also be a factor in the lack of weapons at this stage of the journey (something I had missed) - why bring weapons to a trip through civilized lands when one can acquire them later?Last edited by Khedrac; 2021-07-24 at 02:43 AM.
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2021-07-24, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
This does not contradict what I said in any way?
If memory serves, Weathertop is said to literally be the only named place between Bree and Rivendell.
Edit: Also Bree is very tiny and by all account always was, despite sitting at the crossing points of the two biggest roads of this part of the continent.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-24 at 03:43 AM.
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2021-07-24, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
They may not be named, but:
Originally Posted by The Hobbit, Chapter 2
Well the comment is made on May 31st (they day they later meet the trolls). so the question is when did they start out?
This is less clear, but during the party it is said that Thrain "went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday" so the departure (the next day) is in the week ending 28th April.
The party is probably on a Wednesday since Bilbo "did not remember things very well, unless he put them down on his Engagement Tablet: like this: Gandalf Tea Wednesday"; hence the departure is probably on the 28th itself.
Thus the party spend 33 days travelling East from Hobbiton before they run out of civilized lands and meet the trolls. I agree that Weathertop is the only place named, and it is not a settlement, but the whole area is fairly well settled - it takes the skill of the Dunedain to travel through the lands without meeting people or being seen.Last edited by Khedrac; 2021-07-24 at 04:14 AM. Reason: typos
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2021-07-24, 04:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Stealing treasure is still a better idea than trying to slay a dragon. They're not trying to fight.
There are more settlements in Middle Earth than are on the map, but there are a lot of wildernesses too. Arnor was destroyed by plague IIRC?
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2021-07-24, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
It's also worth noting that Elrond's house in Rivendell is called "The Last Homely House" in The Hobbit, but that would kind of be a weird name if there was nothing but unpopulated wasteland in every direction from it--there must be other homely houses somewhere around there, and they certainly aren't eastward of it because that's the goblin-infested Misty Mountains!
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2021-07-24, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I stand corrected.
A combo of war, plague and the undead courtesy of the Witch-King of Angmar.
It's called "The Last Homely House West of the Wisty Mountains" so yes. South-East, actually, in Lothloričn.
Edit: it's the last chronologically, not geographically, Sauron destroyed all the others.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-24 at 10:16 AM.
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2021-07-24, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
This... actually makes a surprising amount of sense. Arnor fell, but some people remain, some old fortresses are still inhabited, some old songs are remembered.
I didn't expect the worldbuilding to be so coherent.
The trolls are recent immigrants, 'Troll- country' is further north, but if they stumbled across some old treasure cache, it even makes sense to find the Gondolin relics.
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2021-07-24, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Especially since it wasn't supposed to be.
The Hobbit in its current form was actually retconned to being in Tolkien's created universe in order to better connect it to Lord of the Rings.
SpoilerIf one could find a copy from before 1951, the scenes with Gollum would be absent.Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-24 at 05:36 PM.
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2021-07-24, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I believe it's actually a bit more complex than that
Spoiler
Gollum was in the Hobbit originally. However, in that version he simply gave Bilbo the Ring when he lost the riddle game. Lord of the Rings retcons this into Bilbo finding the Ring prior to the riddle game. The original version then becomes Bilbo's lie to justify his possession of the Ring. It's a very Tolkien way to do a retcon, and since everything is within a frame narrative in some ways counts less as a retcon and more as simply differing texts.
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2021-07-24, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
The absence of weapons completely surprised me. I'm so used to Dwarves having at least axes with them from so many stories and portrayals. Some quick reading of The Hobbit suggests that they certainly had a lot of equipment at some stages - tools and a spade are mentioned in chapter 1. It looks like the first weapons mentioned are those claimed from the trolls. A fight much later in the book mentions "some had knives, some had sticks". Nice pickup Rater, I'd never noticed even after multiple readings of the book.
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2021-07-24, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Well, I guess there really isn't much point in taking axes and swords when you have such a small group and your target is a dragon! There was no way they were ever going to defeat Smaug, hence the idea of thievery instead. I suspect the road eastward was simply a lot more dangerous than the dwarves gave it credit for--they'd spent almost their entire lives in the western mountains near the Shire, after all, which is pretty obviously a super safe place to be. (According to LOTR appendices Thorin led his people westwards when he was a sprightly young dwarf of only 53 years of age, and he's nearly 200 at the time of The Hobbit--a lot can change in more than a century).
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2021-07-26, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
And after a brief delay, chapter 3: A Short Rest
Spoiler: As I GoAnd now the danger of the adventure feels real, turning the adventure into a more somber affair as characterized by the lack of music.
I notice that Hobits tend to think of things a "The Thing." Bilbo does not live under a hill, he lives under The Hill. Here, he asks if the first of the Misty Mountains they encounter is The Mountain.
Admittedly, he'd never seen a mountain before judging from his comments about its size.
But no, this isn't even the right mountain rage, they have to cross it and go on for some time before they can even get to Lonely Mountain.
Gandalf spells out that trying to navigate the Misty Mountains by any means but a properly supplied trek across the specified at will lead to either having to return to the beginning or death. How kind of the mountains to let you start from scratch. Most just kill you.
Luckily, Gandalf has friends nearby. Not so luckily, nearby is relative and it takes most of a day of arduous journey just to get to the last homely house.
Again, I just love Tolkien's descriptive prose.
...I did not know that heather was a type of flower.
"Smells like elves" is a very odd descriptor. What are elves supposed to smell like?
More music. With lyrics. And a reminder that the same word in the same language can have radically different meanings in a different time or place.
I like Bilbo's description of the elves. They seem otherworldly rather than just "better than you."
...If fourteen days is a short rest then I don't want to know what a long one is.
"Where did trolls get elven-forged swords?"
"Hell if I know."
And I presume that is the last of that.
I am disappointed that it's moon-letter and not moon-rune. Come on, make it rhyme.
Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?
Spoiler: In conclusionA shorter chapter than the first two... Not much happens really, Mostly just exposition and world-building.
It is quite literally a breather chapter.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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2021-07-26, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Honestly, Tolkien's heroes are about the chillest of all of fantasy.
Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?
Spoiler: In conclusionA shorter chapter than the first two... Not much happens really, Mostly just exposition and world-building.
It is quite literally a breather chapter.Forum Wisdom
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2021-07-26, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
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2021-07-26, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Checking back for more details:
Originally Posted by Thorin*
*Translated back from my French copy.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-26 at 01:24 PM.
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2021-07-26, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
Is it funny or tragic that Thorin doesn't know how to tell the first day of the year on a dwarven calendar?
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2021-07-26, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
They know how to tell the first day of the year, it's the first day of the last moon of autumn.
They don't know how to calculate whether that will also be Durin's Day, when the last moon of autumn and the sun are visible in the sky together.
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2021-07-26, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit
I wouldn't call heather a flower, per se, but it does have flowers on it at the right time of year--a heather moor in full bloom is actually a real sight to see, especially considering how muted they are for the rest of the year.