Rater Reads The Hobbit

[hamishspence]

Carrying knives is not suspicious, every traveler is likely to have one. Orcrist maybe less so, but it's never brought up.

The point isn't that it's especially suspicious - it's that describing the dwarves as unarmed during their encounters with the elves, is inaccurate.

[Kornaki]

It's possible he didn't want to tell a lie because when the rest of his group was captured, they would have to produce the same lie or be in serious life threatening trouble.

After the goblins though they probably should have gotten their stories straight.

[hamishspence]

By my reading, the most plausible interpretation of the paragraph of *why* the elves thought the dwarves approaching was an attack is "the Elf-King started a war becuase he didn't want to pay for things he commissioned the creation of and lied to his subjets about it claiming that the dwarves started it, leading them to be distrustful of all dwarves even centuries later."

Even in The Hobbit, it isn't explicitly stated that "this king claims that dwarves stole some of his treasure". The Silmarillion clarifies what happened - and that it happened to a previous king rather than the current one.

[pendell]

Not imprisoning Thorin after Thorin told him exactly what was happening but instead informing him that the road was out and either giving him directions to an alternate route or at least letting him turn around.

The only way "out" at that point was the road back the other way, towards the Misty Mountains. We are told in text that the original path which Gandalf had pointed them on now came to a "dark and doubtful end". Sending them east of his kingdom would have merely seen them blundering back into it because there is no road that way.

Equally, escorting them to the borders of his land to the west , just as they are, would have been no kindness. They have no food and no supplies. Dragging these ragged wanderers out into the wilderness and dumping them there would have been as good as cutting their throats, using starvation as a weapon. Again, they would have either been killed or come wandering back.

No, the only way the Dwarves are going to be able to continue their journey is if they travel by river, on the elven-king's boats (I assume he has them, if they can't going to travel by road), with supplies provided by the same.

At which point the Elven King would have been perfectly in his rights to ask "And I should do this for free? Why? "

Thorin didn't want to even suggest the idea of Erebor treasure to him, for fear it would kindle his lust for gold and he wouldn't leave the elven-king's halls without making a promise to him that he would later kick himself for. Which is why he didn't say anything.

Of course, there's another danger as well.

The danger is the Elven King says "And if thou travelest to the Lonely Mountain, what then is your plan, O Thorin Oakenshield, for ridding us of the dragon?"

A few minutes later the response would be: "So you HAVE no plan? So the 13 of you with one sword among you are simply going to walk up to the mountain and try to plunder a fire-breathing dragon? Are you mad? It'll be the death not only of you , but of everything that walks on two legs for thirty leagues in every direction. Guards, lock these madmen up and send for the healers to treat their obvious malady. We cannot let such crazed fools wander witless in the woods lest they bring even greater harm on other folk."

Realistically, the Elven King can't send them back, and he can't send them on. The best option from HIS point of view is to keep them prisoner in order to let sleeping dragons lie. I think even a good elf-king would arrive at that conclusion.

This brings us to an interesting question: The dwarves made a good impression on Bjorn, and he was the one who told them to take the Elf Road. He presumably knows whether or not the road is open. So either the elf king is lying about it not being open, or it was closed incredibly recently. Bjorn and the Dwarves parted on good terms, why would he have sent them into a trap?

I think the spelling is "Beorn". My impression is that Beorn doesn't travel far from his own lands, and for the distance into Mirkwood that he does know the path is the only reasonable way to go. Both Gandalf AND Beorn advised them to stay on the path. You would have hoped that if Beorn DIDN'T know what was going on Gandalf SHOULD, since he'd been that way recently. It would have been nice if he'd said

"Stay on the path because if you get off it the elves won't help you and will probably lock you all up in a dungeon, or you'll be eaten by monsters, or who knows what else."

It would have been nice if he'd said SOMETHING about Thranduil's kingdom, but he didn't.

As towards the questions the Elven King asked, these would have been better asked at a border checkpoint at the frontiers of his land rather than his palace; the dwarves could then have been refused entry at that point if necessary. As it is, the elves seemed to have been remarkably lax about their guard; they had a static defense in the enchanted river, but beyond that they seemed to be making merry in the middle of Mirkwood without so much as posting a guard when they knew there were spiders and other creatures about.

Put like that, they have no one to blame but themselves for a band of hungry dwarves blundering into their feast unexpected and unannounced.

If anything, I say Thorin should pose as a 'white hat hacker' and demand a bounty for finding such a glaring defect in their defenses. If a band of unarmed dwarves (one sword doesn't count as an 'armed war party') are able to stumble into their people unannounced, they could just as easily be surprised by a goblin raiding party. The goblins live in the Misty Mountains as well as the mountains to the North, and the river would pose no barrier to them. Goblins can build bridges and goblins can build boats. If a raiding band had traveled that way stealthily, they could have ambushed the elves , killed some, and taken the others as slaves or sport.

Spoiler: Fellowship of the Ring

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Which is how they were able to rescue Gollum from jail in Thranduil's country fifty years later. I tells ya, elves aren't fast learners.

One other point to consider: I don't think we're being entirely fair to Thranduil in ascribing his reaction to Thorin and Company purely to racism, to unknowing bigotry. He's several hundred if not thousands of years old. That means he was alive when Thror was king under the mountain and Erebor was at his height. He was alive, later, when Thror was murdered and the Dwarves no doubt travelled through Mirkwood from the Iron Hills to wreak their vengeance on Azog and the other slayers of Thror. He was alive when the dwarves, fleeing from the wreck of Khazad-Dum, founded Erebor in the first place.

Which is to say that he knows dwarves, better than any living human of his time and probably better than many dwarves do themselves. He's had dealings with them and their fathers and their grandfathers through the generations. All the which suggests he has a pretty good idea of the kind of person in front of him and what to expect from someone like Thorin. Although I daresay it's also possible that his experiences of all the other dwarves may somewhat cloud his ability to deal with Thorin as an individual, just as a parent sometimes has trouble seeing a child as an independent being and not an extension of themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Wintermoot]

One other point to consider: I don't think we're being entirely fair to Thranduil in ascribing his reaction to Thorin and Company purely to racism, to unknowing bigotry. He's several hundred if not thousands of years old. That means he was alive when Thror was king under the mountain and Erebor was at his height. He was alive, later, when Thror was murdered and the Dwarves no doubt travelled through Mirkwood from the Iron Hills to wreak their vengeance on Azog and the other slayers of Thror. He was alive when the dwarves, fleeing from the wreck of Khazad-Dum, founded Erebor in the first place.

Which is to say that he knows dwarves, better than any living human of his time and probably better than many dwarves do themselves. He's had dealings with them and their fathers and their grandfathers through the generations. All the which suggests he has a pretty good idea of the kind of person in front of him and what to expect from someone like Thorin. Although I daresay it's also possible that his experiences of all the other dwarves may somewhat cloud his ability to deal with Thorin as an individual, just as a parent sometimes has trouble seeing a child as an independent being and not an extension of themselves.

Emphasis mine.

You LITERALLY just described racism and unknowing bigotry. Like textbook definition. So... yeah.... it's fair to use those terms.

I personally agree with a lot of your points above that re: the elf king and motivation. Though I personally think the elves are ***** and the king is king ****. Still its a LOT more nuanced than the picture some others are painting.

The huge confrontation at the end of the Hobbit was a series of events that needed to be stopped by ONE person standing up and making a sacrifice on behalf of his side in the conflict. And that person is NOT the guy who actually killed the dragon and was then thrust in command of a starving band of refugees who just saw their entire community destroyed and are one bad night from starvation.

[Rater202]

The road itself is safe ground[/I]

The way the Elf-King claims that his people created the road when claiming that it's a crime to wander his lands without leave indicates that that includes traveling on his road.

Which is kind of a **** move, considering that traveling through his land at all is literally the only way to get from one half of middle Earth to the other half and there are towns and kingdoms of both men and dwarves on both sides.

[hamishspence]

The way the Elf-King claims that his people created the road when claiming that it's a crime to wander his lands without leave indicates that that includes traveling on his road.

I'd put the emphasis on the word "wander" - with staying on the path, not being "wandering".


walk or move in a leisurely or aimless way.
"I wandered through the narrow streets"

move slowly away from a fixed point or place.
"please don't wander off again"


He also stresses that it's the disturbance the dwarves made, that justifies his asking questions and demanding an answer.

"Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here... "

[Peelee]

Which is kind of a **** move, considering that traveling through his land at all is literally the only way to get from one half of middle Earth to the other half and there are towns and kingdoms of both men and dwarves on both sides.

What possibly gave you that idea? It is not the only way whatsoever. It is simply the most convenient way for the dwarves based on their start and end locations.

[Wintermoot]

The way the Elf-King claims that his people created the road when claiming that it's a crime to wander his lands without leave indicates that that includes traveling on his road.

Which is kind of a **** move, considering that traveling through his land at all is literally the only way to get from one half of middle Earth to the other half and there are towns and kingdoms of both men and dwarves on both sides.

The reality of the forest and the elf's relationship with it is very different than that.

You seem to think the elves have no right to expect others to not wander into their forest and I think I remember you complaining about the elves having their parties on the road instead of in some kind of off road building.

the forest IS their palace.

The dwarves wandering through the forest is the equivalent of someone wandering through your living room, not through your yard. '

Now if you woke up in the middle of the night and found some strangers wandering through your living room, do you really think they owe you no explanation beyond "just trying to get to the other side of your house"?

Elves are fundamentally different than humans. Especially in their relationship with their forests.

And before you go on with "well they are ***** then because the road through the forest is the only way from east to west", in the real world we have interstates in America for getting from state to state, but that certainly wasn't the rule in medieval europe. If you wandered across the border of one fiefdom to another fiefdom without transit rights from the new fiefdom's authority, you better believe that guards could and would stop you and imprison you if you had no good reason to be there other than "trying to get through"

[Rater202]

What possibly gave you that idea?.

The map in the back of the book? Which shows exactly two ways to get from the lands east of the Misty Mountain to the lands East of the Mirkwood, both of which are roads through the Mirkwood.

Apparently, that map is misleading, but still

[Fyraltari]

What possibly gave you that idea? It is not the only way whatsoever. It is simply the most convenient way for the dwarves based on their start and end locations.

Indeed,

Spoiler

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Bilbo pointedly goes around the Forest on his way back.

Edit:

The map in the back of the book? Which shows exactly two ways to get from the lands east of the Misty Mountain to the lands East of the Mirkwood, both of which are roads through the Mirkwood.

Apparently, that map is misleading, but still

The world doesn't end at the edge of maps, you know.

[Peelee]

The map in the back of the book? Which shows exactly two ways to get from the lands east of the Misty Mountain to the lands East of the Mirkwood, both of which are roads through the Mirkwood.

Apparently, that map is misleading, but still

In addition to what Fyraltari said (albeit a spoiler for you), he also explicitly asked Gandalf before entering the forest and Gandalf said going around would take too much time. Which means going around is absolutely possible, just not convenient.

[Sapphire Guard]

Technically it's not the only way through,. but in practice, Mirkwood is ginormous, going around it is not very feasible for the dwarves, to the north is monster territory, south is Dol Guldor, Beorn isn't going to give them supplies or horses for that long a trip.

Spoiler

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Bilbo can go around because the goblin army is already defeated and he has gandalf with him.

Elven king could just turn them loose on his east borders and wash his hands of them. Once away from Mirkwood they can fend for themselves just fine.

[Rater202]

the forest IS their palace.

The existence of a distinct palace within the forest suggests that this is not the case.

Also, if you don't want people coming into your house, maybe don't build a road that goes right through your house, starting outside it, ending outside it, and then fail to put a gate on it?

The elf road starts and the very edge of the firest and, when it's not out at least, ends outside the forest. Since the elves are willing to party in ht middle of the woods, they presumably have the means of navigating it: That would indicate that the road exists solely for the use of travelers.

and if you're permitting travelers to come into your property, and your property is larger than most of the kingdoms on the continent... Maybe be prepared for some of them to get lost?

Of course, again, the fact that the ELf-King explicitly mentions traveling on his road in addition to "harrassing" his people and waking the spiders suggests that the Elf-King includes using his road as part of the "tresspass." which is just kind of...

[Peelee]

Technically it's not the only way through,. but in practice, Mirkwood is ginormous, going around it is not very feasible for the dwarves, to the north is monster territory, south is Dol Guldor, Beorn isn't going to give them supplies or horses for that long a trip.

Yes, that's what I've been saying:

It is simply the most convenient way for the dwarves based on their start and end locations.

[Wintermoot]

Technically it's not the only way through,. but in practice, Mirkwood is ginormous, going around it is not very feasible for the dwarves, to the north is monster territory, south is Dol Guldor, Beorn isn't going to give them supplies or horses for that long a trip.

Spoiler

Show

Bilbo can go around because the goblin army is already defeated and he has gandalf with him.

Elven king could just turn them loose on his east borders and wash his hands of them. Once away from Mirkwood they can fend for themselves just fine.

He -could- but is he obligated to do so?

He intuits that the dwarves are up to something (he's right) and being less than fully truthful (also right) and he feels entitled to the truth. So as a sovereign lord of the land they are "invading" one could argue that imprisoning them until they cough up the truth is within his rights.

I think if he intuited that they really WERE just travelers or simple merchants or lost idiots, he probably WOULD just set them loose on his east borders. But he knows they are more than that, and he's right.

[Wintermoot]

The existence of a distinct palace within the forest suggests that this is not the case.

Also, if you don't want people coming into your house, maybe don't build a road that goes right through your house, starting outside it, ending outside it, and then fail to put a gate on it?

The elf road starts and the very edge of the firest and, when it's not out at least, ends outside the forest. Since the elves are willing to party in ht middle of the woods, they presumably have the means of navigating it: That would indicate that the road exists solely for the use of travelers.

and if you're permitting travelers to come into your property, and your property is larger than most of the kingdoms on the continent... Maybe be prepared for some of them to get lost?

Of course, again, the fact that the ELf-King explicitly mentions traveling on his road in addition to "harrassing" his people and waking the spiders suggests that the Elf-King includes using his road as part of the "tresspass." which is just kind of...

I give up Rater. You are ignoring full paragraphs of explanatory text. you are CHOOSING to misinterpret the book at this point in order to find fault that isn't there. So that's on you. *shrug*

I will mentally change the title of this thread to Rater misreads the Hobbit and move on with my life.

[pendell]

It's not a matter of convenience at all; it's a matter of safety.

Going north sends them into the arms of the goblins of the northern mountains; they would almost certainly be killed.

Going south takes them into the Necromancer's domain. Again, this is a non-starter, scarcely better than trying to sneak through Mordor.

So at the time Gandalf advised there was no other practical method of traveling through the forest. I would describe the other routes, on which death or enslavement is probable, not so much as 'inconvenient' as 'far too dangerous'. Especially for a party of 14 who have 1 sword, 1 dagger, and a bunch of knives between them.

Worst. Adventuring. Party. Ever.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

It's not a matter of convenience at all; it's a matter of safety.

Going north sends them into the arms of the goblins of the northern mountains; they would almost certainly be killed.

Going south takes them into the Necromancer's domain. Again, this is a non-starter, scarcely better than trying to sneak through Mordor.

So at the time Gandalf advised there was no other practical method of traveling through the forest. I would describe the other routes, on which death or enslavement is probable, not so much as 'inconvenient' as 'far too dangerous'. Especially for a party of 14 who have 1 sword, 1 dagger, and a bunch of knives between them.

Worst. Adventuring. Party. Ever.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They need to arrive by Durin's Day, which is fast approaching. Any possible dangers on other routes are irrelevant; they need to get there by X time, and going any other route will not get them there in time. It is convenience.

I'd check the book, as I think Gandalf brought up both issues, but I'm about to hut the gym. I don't think "that way is dangerous" is much of an issue for people whose entire plan is to confront a dragon. Though yes, even as to their most basic plan, worst adventuring party ever.

[Sapphire Guard]

Elvenking can imprison whoever he wants on his own land for any reason he chooses, but he is being very harsh (as per the text, partly because of racism).

The dwarves are obviously telling the truth about being starving, they are very poorly armed, they made no threatening actions beyond killing some spiders that tried to eat them.

Thorin's reaction is entirely valid and reasonable, and that's the beauty of this, everyone has an understandable perspective at the negotiations, although the Elvenking does have easily the weakest position (fortunately, he also has the strongest army, which counts for a lot in these things).

With regard to rousing the dragon, that's kinda on Bilbo, 'Barrel-rider' is what Smaug caught on to. But, honestly, eventually Smaug was going to get bored, stretch his wings, and burn down the nearest town anyway.

[hamishspence]

The context of the Silmarillion (which reveals that this Elvenking is not the one who the dwarves (wrongly) regard as a cheat, allows the "prejudice" issue to be cast the other way.

Thorin refuses to mention "quest for gold and jewels" because he has heard the (wrong) story of Thingol's cheating, and assumes:

"all Wood Elf kings are similar - Thranduil will try to cheat me, just as Thingol tried to cheat Other Dwarves".

[pendell]

The context of the Silmarillion (which reveals that this Elvenking is not the one who the dwarves (wrongly) regard as a cheat, allows the "prejudice" issue to be cast the other way.

Thorin refuses to mention "quest for gold and jewels" because he has heard the (wrong) story of Thingol's cheating, and assumes:

"all Wood Elf kings are similar - Thranduil will try to cheat me, just as Thingol tried to cheat Other Dwarves".

So the elves are prejudiced against dwarves, and the dwarves are prejudiced against the elves. Which casts Legolas and Gimli's plot arc in the trilogy in a whole new light, as a step forward where two bitter enemies learn to look past their ancient hatreds and discover friends.

That's actually an extremely powerful statement about racism and bigotry, which is all the more surprising since it was written in the 1940s.

ETA: So when's Tauriel going to show up?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rater202]

The context of the Silmarillion (which reveals that this Elvenking is not the one who the dwarves (wrongly) regard as a cheat, allows the "prejudice" issue to be cast the other way.

Thorin refuses to mention "quest for gold and jewels" because he has heard the (wrong) story of Thingol's cheating, and assumes:

"all Wood Elf kings are similar - Thranduil will try to cheat me, just as Thingol tried to cheat Other Dwarves".

When the story is told in this book, it doens't make a distinction between this elf king nd that elf king.

It just says "the elf king" in both contexts.

Indicating that, at least when the chapter was written, that it was intended to be the same elf-king.

We know that the Hobbit was originally intended to be separate from the rest of the Middle Earth setting, that's what gets aid every time I bring up things about the Ring and wonder if, in-universe, what we find out about it later has anything to do with how it's depicted here...

[hamishspence]

When the story is told in this book, it doens't make a distinction between this elf king nd that elf king.

It just says "the elf king" in both contexts.

Indicating that, at least when the chapter was written, that it was intended to be the same elf-king.

Perhaps.

The king's cave was his palace, and the strong place of his treasure, and the fortress of his people against their enemies.

It was also the dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old. His people neither mined nor worked metals or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth. All this was well known to every dwarf, though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of. Consequently Thorin was angry at their treatment of him, when they took their spell off him and he came to his senses; and also he was determined that no word of gold or jewels should be dragged out of him.

Nonetheless, Tolkien did retcon the two mentions of "the elf king" here, as being mentions of two different people.

[Fyraltari]

Perhaps.




Nonetheless, Tolkien did retcon the two mentions of "the elf king" here, as being mentions of two different people.

Did he? King Thingol did not bargain with dwarves for them to shape "raw gold and silver" but for them to add a rare jewel to a jewel necklace.

[hamishspence]

Did he? King Thingol did not bargain with dwarves for them to shape "raw gold and silver" but for them to add a rare jewel to a jewel necklace.

The necklace was gold and silver, and the jewel wasn't just added on, but the necklace was reforged to complement the jewel better.

[Fyraltari]

The necklace was gold and silver, and the jewel wasn't just added on, but the necklace was reforged to complement the jewel better.

I can't check right now (my books are packed in boxes coz' we're moving at the end of the week) but all I can find online says the Nauglamìr was made of gold with no silver mentionned. Also, if it's already part of a jewel, then it's not "raw gold and silver".

Like, you'll find A lot of people saying that conflict between Thingol and the dwarves of Nogrod is the sole reason for the distrust between the two species and the end of "the ancient friendship" mentionned in TLotR, but that completely ignores that the dwarves of Moria (a.k.a., Thorin's people) were still chummy with elves for at least the entire Second Age, after that.

[Khedrac]

That's definitely not right, the Iron Hills where many dwarves live are to the East of the Lonely Mountain, as the maps in The Hobbit show.

Good point, I forgot them. Presumably the lands of the easteners (humans) lie beyond them. That said, they can't be all bad as they are probably who Dain and Co trade with!

[hamishspence]

To be fair, Christopher Tolkien did say that the Ruin of Doriath chapter was the one he'd had to add the most to of his own invention - since Tolkien's original version, in The Book of Lost Tales, was incompatible with The Silmarillion:

It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other “manipulation” of my father’s own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of the Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with “The Silmarillion” as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.

He later created a version "more in line with The Book of Lost Tales" for the Beren & Luthien release.

In that version, Thingol's death takes place after the dwarves who modified the Nauglamir are kicked out - when they come back with friends.

the dwarves of Moria (a.k.a., Thorin's people) were still chummy with elves for at least the entire Second Age, after that.

They were chummy with the elves of Rivendell and Eregion - but not with the elves of Lorien - Celeborn, who also lived in Doriath for a time, had a strong dislike of them, as Unfinished Tales mentions.

Hence Gimli getting initially refused entry to Lorien, then, when Aragorn vouches for him, the elves say that he must be blindfolded (and earlier in the journey, than everyone else is).

[Fyraltari]

They were chummy with the elves of Rivendell and Eregion - but not with the elves of Lorien - Celeborn, who also lived in Doriath for a time, had a strong dislike of them, as Unfinished Tales mentions.

Hence Gimli getting initially refused entry to Lorien, then, when Aragorn vouches for him, the elves say that he must be blindfolded (and earlier in the journey, than everyone else is).

If memory serves, the Elves of Lorien were pissed at them for waking Durin's Bane up.