Rater Reads The Hobbit

[Rodin]

I wouldn't call heather a flower, per se, but it does have flowers on it at the right time of year--a heather moor in full bloom is actually a real sight to see, especially considering how muted they are for the rest of the year.

I live right on the edge of the Yorkshire Moors and can attest. They're also a fairly common garden plant around here - you plant a bunch of them to make a low growing bush type effect, which then flowers all at the same time. Really pretty if you can pull it off.

Sadly, my attempts at growing heather have all ended in failure. They don't do well where I plant them, and the one set that was doing okay got turfed up by an overenthusiastic landscaper when I redecorated my back yard.

[PontificatusRex]

"Where did trolls get elven-forged swords?"
"Hell if I know."

Accurately predicting the experience of getting treasure off monsters for 95% of all RPG adventures.

Although now I'm imagining Elrond explaining "Trolls are Treasure Type G..."

[Rater202]

I'm going to repeat something I said early...

Tolkien's races legitimately feel like distinct peoples with cultures. At least with the very little of them we see in this book.

In derivative works based on or adapting Tolkien, you kind of get the feeling that...

Like, Elves derived from Tolkiens tend to feel like "humans, except longer lived, better than any human who lived, with a vague sense of moral superiority." But here when we meet them they seem... Like benevolent fae creatures. They are beautiful and otherworldly, but I don't get the sense that they think they're better than men, dwarves, or hobbits. Nor that we're supposed to think they are.

and like I said, our introduction to the Dwarves with the way they act and the songs they sing immediately paints a picture of what could have been a real people at some point in time. Not "Axbeard McStoneAx loves his God, his Ax, his mine, and his beer. Now let's multiply that a hundred thousand times and call it a race. Give some of them hammers instead of axes, that can be the variety."

In particular... When Bilbo listens to them singing of the mountain and the last treasure, he notes that he can feel a love for items that were crafted... For the joy of crafting, to paraphrase.

That's not really a thing we see much, I don't think. When you think of fantasy swarves, why do they mine precious jewels and metals and forge them into things? BEcuase they like money...

But here, they do it because they like crafting beautiful things...

Like, the closest comparison o that I can think of with any other dwarven race is the Disney animated Snow White, where the seven Dwarves work all day in a mine dragging up diamonds and other jewels... Becuase they like working in a mine.

[Qwertystop]

Pratchett did a decent job of it, I think, though deliberately starting from the thin stereotype version and filling it out. There's taboos and cultural/political subgroups and religious beliefs and things.

[Sapphire Guard]

I dunno, Pratchett's version eventually moves towards 'this culture is bad and needs to be stopped'

[Fyraltari]

I dunno, Pratchett's version eventually moves towards 'this culture is bad and needs to be stopped'

Rather "religious extremists are bad and need to be stopped."

[Rater202]

"a radical subfaction of this culture is holding onto traditions that are harmful in the modern-day and engaging homicide and terrorism because they're upset that the rest of their culture is changing with the times. They need to be stopped before they do irreparable harm to their own people and everyone else as well."

Also, I think that Thudd and Raising Steam between them do a good job of showing that the problem isn't Dwarven culture but rather these specific dwarves who were taking things a mite bit too far in the name of tradition... And also that they're complete hypocrites.

Though, admittedly, I omitted Pratchet's dwarves because, well... superficial differences aside they're actually not as similar to the traditional High Fantasy Dwarves derived from Tolkiens as you'd think.

[Fyraltari]

I'm going to repeat something I said early...

Tolkien's races legitimately feel like distinct peoples with cultures. At least with the very little of them we see in this book.

In derivative works based on or adapting Tolkien, you kind of get the feeling that...

Like, Elves derived from Tolkiens tend to feel like "humans, except longer lived, better than any human who lived, with a vague sense of moral superiority." But here when we meet them they seem... Like benevolent fae creatures. They are beautiful and otherworldly, but I don't get the sense that they think they're better than men, dwarves, or hobbits. Nor that we're supposed to think they are.

This is a complicated topic. While it's fair to say that The Silmarillion and The Lord of The Rings don't present the elves as being perfect (I mean Fëanor, I am right?), they do come off as better, and "elf-friend" is basically synonimous with "good". So it's not as bad as it would get with imitators, but it is present. Especially in TLotR, where all the bad elves were basically naturally selected out of existence by that point.

In particular... When Bilbo listens to them singing of the mountain and the last treasure, he notes that he can feel a love for items that were crafted... For the joy of crafting, to paraphrase.

That's not really a thing we see much, I don't think. When you think of fantasy swarves, why do they mine precious jewels and metals and forge them into things? BEcuase they like money...

But here, they do it because they like crafting beautiful things...

Like, the closest comparison o that I can think of with any other dwarven race is the Disney animated Snow White, where the seven Dwarves work all day in a mine dragging up diamonds and other jewels... Becuase they like working in a mine.

Maybe it's because I am a huge Tolkien afficionado, but my understanding of stereotypical dwarves always included "love crafting for crafting's sake".

[Sapphire Guard]

The surviving elves are like 5000 years old, they seem perfect because they've already learned from all the mistakes they've made.

[Keltest]

The surviving elves are like 5000 years old, they seem perfect because they've already learned from all the mistakes they've made.

Indeed. Elrond and Galadriel, two of the most important and powerful elves in the finished works, have a LOT of history and baggage behind them.

[factotum]

Maybe it's because I am a huge Tolkien afficionado, but my understanding of stereotypical dwarves always included "love crafting for crafting's sake".

That was the difference in Tolkien's dwarfs, though. A race wholly interested in crafting would have done what Legolas feared and just ripped all the precious stones out of the Glittering Caves of Aglarond to craft into other things, but Gimli said even a dwarf could not fail to be moved by how beautiful the caves were and want to preserve and even improve them.

[Fyraltari]

A race wholly interested in crafting

That's not what I said.

[Peelee]

Maybe it's because I am a huge Tolkien afficionado, but my understanding of stereotypical dwarves always included "love crafting for crafting's sake".

I got into D&D well before LOTR/The Hobbit, and that's been my takeaway as well.

[Rater202]

Chapter 4: Over Hill and Under Hill... Yeah, this is starting to sound familiar.

Spoiler: As I go

Show

So the mountains are full of paths that go nowhere and passes full of monsters too dangerous for our party...

So, we know that Early D&D was inspired by Tolkien's work, to a greater or lesser degree. Now, I think that I know where he got his inspiration for adventure modules.

The first mountain takes days to climb... How big is it? Like, they say that it takes two months to climb Everest but from what I can tell that two months consist mostly of getting to base camp and preparing for the climb proper. The climb proper you can do in a day if you're adequately prepared and know what you're doing.

Bilbo can almost literally see his house from there.

I think it's notable that the Misty Mountains are described as a place where "No King Ruled."

Oh God, a terrible Thunderstorm when you're high in the mountains...That sounds terrifying. I think my heart rate spiked just reading it.

Illustration: I get the feeling that the mountains are big.

Huh. Stone giants living in the mountains and tossing things for sport... Honestly was not aware of giants as part of Tolkien's canon.

Yeah, definitely see Gygax's inspiration for adventure models, what with the thoroughly searched cave still turning out to be dangerous. Ambush by goblins when you thought you were safe, classic prank bro.

Huh. The Goblins are also musical.

This is a very musical book. Two songs in the first chapter and one each in three and four, that's four songs in the first four chapters, not counting allusions to singing without printed lyrics.

I know that there are places where horse meat is a delicacy, and it's apparently healthy and good tasting meat if the animal is healthy and slaughtered properly, but there's a part of me that is just... Filled with utter revulsion at the thought. From my perspective, hore meat is what you eat when you have a choice between eating the horse or committing cannibalism.

And I get the feeling that that's what Tolkien was getting at when he describes how the Goblins eat horses.

...Is Tolkien implying that modern mechanized war machines were secretly invented by goblins? And regardless, goblins being good weaponsmiths and masters of the Darkside of Tinkering... Started with Tolkien. And the beginning of the book before the story properly starts there's a note on the words used. It notes that in Middle Earth, 'Orc' and 'Goblin' are different names for the same race of people...

So, basically, in the original source material, Orcs were smart, if bent towards the creation of practical tools and weapons rather than more artistic merits.

I keep saying it, but... God Damn has much been lost in imitation. Imitations of Tolkien's dwarves make them cookie-cutter stereotypes. Imitations of his elves make them generically better than humans without any of the histories that make it true while also making them arrogant... And now his Orcs/Goblins are split into two races and usually made stupid and brutish, or at least less advanced than other races.

God Damn, compared to the source material the imitators come across like particularly ****ty fanfics.

And industrialization! They don't like working with their hand more than can be helped, so... Is he implying that Goblins/Orcs invented factories?

I am genuinely a little upset right now. I feel like I've been robbed because Tolkien's imitators chose to be superficial. I think.. I think that Warhammer 40,000 of all things is closest to what Tolkien describes here.

And yes, I saw the comments that the goblins hadn't yet advanced this far, but I think my point stands.

And the goblins literally call the cave our heroes were squatting in "Front Porch." That would be downright charming in any other context.

And looting the trolls comes back to bite them. I'd have to wonder why the goblins would lie about 'inviting' the dwarves and Bilbo but now I'm wondering... What if this is a genuine misunderstanding and this little meeting would have gone better if Gandalf hadn't fried those goblins?

Again, I love Tolkien's descriptive prose.

And Gandalf saves the day by committing regicide.

Chase sequence wherein our heroes are at disadvantage. Eventually, it turns into Gandalf and Thorin slaughtering their way through goblins, but uh oh, sneak attack and Bolbo is lost.

Spoiler: In Conclusion

Show

Another short chapter, not really much to discuss that I haven't covered already, but...

...Yeah, no. All I can think about is how much was lost in imitation regarding Tolkiens Orcs/Goblins. Like, is races in general, but his orcs/goblins especially.

And Next chapter, Riddles in the Dark... This is the big one. I'm tempted to make this a double, but I need to decompress a bit.

[Fyraltari]

Huh. Stone giants living in the mountains and tossing things for sport... Honestly was not aware of giants as part of Tolkien's canon.

This is literally the only time these giants are mentionned in any of his books. Though he would later give his own spin to the giant archetype. A more... vegetal spin if you catch my meaning.

Huh. The Goblins are also musical.

Seen in he comment section of a video of the Rankin adaptation of a later goblin song: "They are a spontaneously musical race. It is a remnant of their elven heritage."

This is a very musical book. Two songs in the first chapter and one each in three and four, that's four songs in the first four chapters, not counting allusions to singing without printed lyrics.

Did you know there's a Lord of the Rings musical?

I know that there are places where horse meat is a delicacy, and it's apparently healthy and good tasting meat if the animal is healthy and slaughtered properly, but there's a part of me that is just... Filled with utter revulsion at the thought. From my perspective, hore meat is what you eat when you have a choice between eating the horse or committing cannibalism.

And now, I am craving a good old fashioned horse tartar. Thanks for nothing, Rater.

And I get the feeling that that's what Tolkien was getting at when he describes how the Goblins eat horses.

...Is Tolkien implying that modern mechanized war machines were secretly invented by goblins? And regardless, goblins being good weaponsmiths and masters of the Darkside of Tinkering... Started with Tolkien. And the beginning of the book before the story properly starts there's a note on the words used. It notes that in Middle Earth, 'Orc' and 'Goblin' are different names for the same race of people...

So, basically, in the original source material, Orcs were smart, if bent towards the creation of practical tools and weapons rather than more artistic merits.

I keep saying it, but... God Damn has much been lost in imitation. Imitations of Tolkien's dwarves make them cookie-cutter stereotypes. Imitations of his elves make them generically better than humans without any of the histories that make it true while also making them arrogant... And now his Orcs/Goblins are split into two races and usually made stupid and brutish, or at least less advanced than other races.

God Damn, compared to the source material the imitators come across like particularly ****ty fanfics.

And industrialization! They don't like working with their hand more than can be helped, so... Is he implying that Goblins/Orcs invented factories?

I am genuinely a little upset right now. I feel like I've been robbed because Tolkien's imitators chose to be superficial. I think.. I think that Warhammer 40,000 of all things is closest to what Tolkien describes here.

And yes, I saw the comments that the goblins hadn't yet advanced this far, but I think my point stands.

That's a recurring thing throughout all versions of the Legendarium, hell in the only detailed version of the Fall of Gondolin (that really doesn't mesh with the not-very-early continuity) the orcs had what sounds like tanks/armoured transports.

I'd have to wonder why the goblins would lie about 'inviting' the dwarves and Bilbo

Nothing unusual.

but now I'm wondering... What if this is a genuine misunderstanding and this little meeting would have gone better if Gandalf hadn't fried those goblins?

Doubt it. 'Specially with the swords. Also, the Great Goblin can indentify swords that have been unnacounted for for about six thousand years. Middle-Earth just lost one hell of an antique dealer.

[PontificatusRex]

And industrialization! They don't like working with their hand more than can be helped, so... Is he implying that Goblins/Orcs invented factories?

Tolkien HATED what industrialization did to the English landscape, and he was also a WW1 vet so he was part of that first generation to discover the horrors of mechanized warfare. So yeah, not surprising that he associated those things with the Goblins. And as Fyralti mentioned, early versions of 'The Fall of Gondolin' did include mechanized armor as part of the attack.

[PontificatusRex]

This is literally the only time these giants are mentioned in any of his books.

There's one other brief mention in the Hobbit, which Rater hasn't gotten to yet. Super quick and easy to miss, though.

[Thomas Cardew]

Doubt it. 'Specially with the swords. Also, the Great Goblin can indentify swords that have been unnacounted for for about six thousand years. Middle-Earth just lost one hell of an antique dealer.

I am now picturing the Pawnstars guy as the Great Goblin.

[Corvus]

Oh boy, do all those cheap imitators really miss the point with Tolkien's races. Its why I generally hate elves so much because they almost always are just all their good points and none of their flaws. There are some I do enjoy, and that is because they are their own thing - Pratchett's elves, the elves of Dark Sun and the Dark Elves (dunmer) of Morrowind.

The orcs/goblins suffer a lot of that as well except they get all the flaws and none of the good points. Again I like those settings where they subvert that - well, except for the 40k orks. They are just too fun not to like even if they are just dumb brutes - they just do it in style.

Tolkien's orcs/goblins were smart. They were creative. He also never quite finalised their origins - the only one in the setting who could create life was Eru. Morgoth couldn't, which meant he couldn't create the orcs and trolls. What he settled on was that the orcs were elves that had been captured and then twisted and corrupted into orcs, while trolls were meant to be from entish stock. The orcs were filled with self-loathing as a result and hated their own existence, which they took out on others. So they liked to break things and hated beauty because of their origins. Oh, and we never even hear mention of female orcs in any of the books, but they must exist and it talks about them breeding and there was also Bolg son of Azog.

And if I remember correctly in LotR there was also mention of some humans with orcish blood.

[Keltest]

Im a little surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but orcs and goblins are the same species. Orc is just the elvish word (or derived from it, rather), while goblin is the name given them by the dwarves and hobbits.

[factotum]

Oh boy, do all those cheap imitators really miss the point with Tolkien's races. Its why I generally hate elves so much because they almost always are just all their good points and none of their flaws. There are some I do enjoy, and that is because they are their own thing - Pratchett's elves, the elves of Dark Sun and the Dark Elves (dunmer) of Morrowind.

I think what they did with High Elves in Skyrim was quite interesting, too. Sure, they were still generally arrogant and holier than thou, but they took this to its logical conclusion by saying, "Well, if we're better than everyone else, we'd best go about ruling the world. Oh, and get rid of all these horrible ugly *men* that are cluttering up the place.".

Im a little surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but orcs and goblins are the same species. Orc is just the elvish word (or derived from it, rather), while goblin is the name given them by the dwarves and hobbits.

It's worth noting that Azog (who killed Thorin's grandfather in Moria) is described as "the goblin" in Chapter One of The Hobbit, but in references in other works and material he's always described as "a great Orc". Bit of an aside here: in later writings Tolkien took to spelling Orc with a k, because he was afraid that people would see the word Orcish and assume the "c" was pronounced as an "s".

[PontificatusRex]

So we're leaving The Hobbit here, but i have to say I love Tolkien's portrayal of the orcs in LOTR. Yes, they are bad, dangerous, and horrible and you'd better kill them first because they will gut you at the first opportunity, but they are also sassy, funny, and their dialogue is always compelling. The strong dominate the weaker and the weaker always hate it and will fight back if given any chance. Tolkien wrote in his letters that the orcs were basically based on the worst human behavior he saw in the war - I remember a quote that went along the lines of "We were all orcs in the trenches", and he gave his orcs a real "F**k this s**t" attitude that I love.

The goblins in The Hobbit have a similar kind of sass I appreciate - ambushing the dwarves and then saying it was the dwarves who started it. Kind of reminds me of some recent national events that I will not mention further. And yeah, they've got some good songs, Rankin and Bass did a pretty darn good job making those real.

[Gnoman]

It's worth noting that Azog (who killed Thorin's grandfather in Moria) is described as "the goblin" in Chapter One of The Hobbit, but in references in other works and material he's always described as "a great Orc". Bit of an aside here: in later writings Tolkien took to spelling Orc with a k, because he was afraid that people would see the word Orcish and assume the "c" was pronounced as an "s".

Spoiler

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The distinction between Orc and Goblin is sort of present in The Hobbit. I think it is in the very next chapter, but Bilbo thinks of a passage as being "small for goblins, at least the big ones", to which the narrator comments something like "Bilbo was unaware that goblins, even the big ones - the Orcs of the mountains - went along well on all fours". It is the only time that the word "Orc" appears in The Hobbit proper. There's a note in the appendices that "Uruk" only really applies to Sauron's great soldier-orcs and not the lesser examples.

[hamishspence]

Tolkien wrote in his letters that the orcs were basically based on the worst human behavior he saw in the war - I remember a quote that went along the lines of "We were all orcs in the trenches"

I've read about that - this specific quote doesn't seem to have a source, and may be conflated from other quotes. Most of Tolkien's quotes about "orcishness in the real world" refer to the 2nd World War, not the 1st.

Spoiler

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Letter #66 (dated 6 May 1944):

For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in real life things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side .... Well, there you are, a hobbit amongst the Urukhai.


Letter #71 (dated 25 May 1944):

I hope that you will have some more leave in genuine Africa, ere too long. Away from the 'lesser servants of Mordor'. Yes, I think that the orcs are as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course.


Letter #78 (dated 12 Augist 1944):

Urukhai is only a figure of speech. There are no genuine Uruks, that is folk made bad by the intention of their maker; and not many who are so corrupted as to be irredeemable (though I fear it must be admitted that there are human creatures that seem irredeemable short of a special miracle, and that there are probably abnormally many of such creatures in Deutschland and Nippon - but certainly those unhappy countries have no monopoly: I have met them, or thought so, in England's green and pleasant land.)


Letter #96 (dated 30 January 1945):

Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children, pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination, left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilisation in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted.

[Fyraltari]

Fyralti

Fyraltari.

What he settled on

What Christopher Tolkien settled on. John kept changed his mind about this too, he last wanted orcs to be purely corrupted Men but died before he could rewrite the Silm in a way that would make this change fit. And let's be honest, had he lived longer he'd have changed his mind again.

Im a little surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but orcs and goblins are the same species. Orc is just the elvish word (or derived from it, rather), while goblin is the name given them by the dwarves and hobbits.

Rater did.

And the beginning of the book before the story properly starts there's a note on the words used. It notes that in Middle Earth, 'Orc' and 'Goblin' are different names for the same race of people...

I think what they did with High Elves in Skyrim was quite interesting, too. Sure, they were still generally arrogant and holier than thou, but they took this to its logical conclusion by saying, "Well, if we're better than everyone else, we'd best go about ruling the world. Oh, and get rid of all these horrible ugly *men* that are cluttering up the place.".

Thalmor =/= Altmer.

Spoiler

Show

The distinction between Orc and Goblin is sort of present in The Hobbit. I think it is in the very next chapter, but Bilbo thinks of a passage as being "small for goblins, at least the big ones", to which the narrator comments something like "Bilbo was unaware that goblins, even the big ones - the Orcs of the mountains - went along well on all fours". It is the only time that the word "Orc" appears in The Hobbit proper.

Spoiler

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People keep bringing that up, and to me it doesn't look as much like a distinction as the author not wanting to use the word "goblin" twice in one sentence.

[factotum]

Thalmor =/= Altmer.

There are non-Altmer Thalmor? Where? OK, Thalmor are not the entire High Elf species, just a subset, but given they canonically control Summerset Isle (among other places), they're pretty much the ruling class.

[Eldan]

[QUOTE=factotum;25143041]I think what they did with High Elves in Skyrim was quite interesting, too. Sure, they were still generally arrogant and holier than thou, but they took this to its logical conclusion by saying, "Well, if we're better than everyone else, we'd best go about ruling the world. Oh, and get rid of all these horrible ugly *men* that are cluttering up the place.".QUOTE]

Not too go on too much of a tangent here, but at least one faction of elves wants to go further than that in the Elder Scrolls and unmake the world, because the material world was the creation of the god of men, and the elves and their own gods were tricked into participating. The purely spiritual state before was better, or so they at least believe. It's why they are going around undoing the laws of the universe one by one.

[Eldan]

There are non-Altmer Thalmor? Where? OK, Thalmor are not the entire High Elf species, just a subset, but given they canonically control Summerset Isle (among other places), they're pretty much the ruling class.

The Thalmor are a political party, who have named themselves after an older political faction from the second era. They took over by pretty much deposing the existing nobility and turning them into puppets.

[Fyraltari]

There are non-Altmer Thalmor? Where?

Valenwood and Elseweyr, considering the Thalmor have Bosmer and Kahjiiti agents. In fact, if you manage to save the Wood Elf who lets you in the embassy, he'll be targeted by a Khajiit assassin on the Thalmor's payroll.

OK, Thalmor are not the entire High Elf species, just a subset, but given they canonically control Summerset Isle (among other places), they're pretty much the ruling class.

Government/ruling political party. The ruling class is still the nobility/mages.

[Rater202]

The... Interesting thing, about the Thalmor?

If you look at the game's code... They're right. Each race has hidden statistics that govern things like running speed and base melee damage and so on.

It's barely noticeable in actual gameplay, but looking at the numbers, the Altmer are objectively the "best" race in terms of physical ability.

So, basically, the Thalmor's political position is "The average altmer is more physically fit than an average member of any other race, therefore we should be ***** to everyone."

That's certainly an... Interesting choice on Bethesda's part.