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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    They also have good reasons to personally hate Talos. It's not impossible that at least some of their older mages were alive, or knew people who were alive, when the Numidium absolutely roflstomped their home in metaphysical ways.

    Edit: the Khajiit too, though they are usually super chill about their religion. Riften is still a nuclear crater.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2021-07-30 at 03:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The... Interesting thing, about the Thalmor?

    If you look at the game's code... They're right. Each race has hidden statistics that govern things like running speed and base melee damage and so on.

    It's barely noticeable in actual gameplay, but looking at the numbers, the Altmer are objectively the "best" race in terms of physical ability.
    That's hardly the extant of their claim. In fact they don't even claim elves are physically superior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The... Interesting thing, about the Thalmor?

    If you look at the game's code... They're right. Each race has hidden statistics that govern things like running speed and base melee damage and so on.

    It's barely noticeable in actual gameplay, but looking at the numbers, the Altmer are objectively the "best" race in terms of physical ability.

    So, basically, the Thalmor's political position is "The average altmer is more physically fit than an average member of any other race, therefore we should be ***** to everyone."

    That's certainly an... Interesting choice on Bethesda's part.
    It's not implausible. If we had, say, superpowers or something in our earth, I would totally expect some people to get ridiculously arrogant and be kind of jerks as a result.

    Hell, people are often jerks for no reason at all. Give them a bit of a reason, and oof.

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    I think it was Elrond who speculated that the trolls came by Glamdring and Orcrist because they "plundered other plunderers." I dunno about Orcrist, but if Glamdring was worn by the King of Gondolin, then the last time we would have seen it would have been at the Fall of Gondolin, in the Silmarillion and the First Age, when Gothmog and the elven king of the city slew each other by the fountain in the palace.

    I don't think it's too much of a stretch that Angband soldiery scooped it up off the body of the Elven King while they fed the body to the crows, but it would have been bad luck to hold onto it... for orcs, those weapons are cursed and ill-fated. Remember that in LOTR Ugluk threw away Pippin's and Merry's Numenorean daggers "as if they burned him."

    Who knows? Maybe they gambled them away in a mad night of lust and debauchery after the victory. Maybe they went to the Angband equivalent of a pawn shop to pay for a round of cheap drinks. Maybe they just threw them down on a deep hole. But trolls raid tombs and trolls ambush travellers. So what with one thing or another, they came into possession of rare and valuable elvish artifacts, including two swords and one enchanted knife. They had no better use for the weapons, so they just left the artifacts in their home along with everything else they came by that wasn't eatable. Trolls seem to be simple creatures of simple tastes. Just given them mutton, beer, they're happy.

    Tolkien never wrote the story, and perhaps its best left to the imagination.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I dunno about Orcrist, but if Glamdring was worn by the King of Gondolin
    Is there even a scrap of evidence for that, though? Both Orcrist and Glamdring are powerful weapons, so powerful that the orcs still remember them with fear thousands of years after they were forged. That suggests to me those weapons have to have been in regular use until relatively recently, so it's far more likely (IMHO, obviously) that they were carried out of the city by survivors of the Fall and used against orcs wherever they were found for years afterwards. It just doesn't make sense they would have the reputation they do if they were basically used *once* six thousand years ago and then never seen again.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I think it was Elrond who speculated that the trolls came by Glamdring and Orcrist because they "plundered other plunderers." I dunno about Orcrist, but if Glamdring was worn by the King of Gondolin, then the last time we would have seen it would have been at the Fall of Gondolin, in the Silmarillion and the First Age, when Gothmog and the elven king of the city slew each other by the fountain in the palace.
    King Turgon died when his tower collapsed, you are thinking of Captain Ecthelion. Not that it changes much.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    King Turgon died when his tower collapsed, you are thinking of Captain Ecthelion. Not that it changes much.
    Right, thank you. Correction noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Factotum
    Is there even a scrap of evidence for that, though? Both Orcrist and Glamdring are powerful weapons, so powerful that the orcs still remember them with fear thousands of years after they were forged. That suggests to me those weapons have to have been in regular use until relatively recently, so it's far more likely (IMHO, obviously) that they were carried out of the city by survivors of the Fall and used against orcs wherever they were found for years afterwards. It just doesn't make sense they would have the reputation they do if they were basically used *once* six thousand years ago and then never seen again.
    There is no direct knowledge of Glamdring or Orcrist between the time Turgon carried the one, and the time Bilbo found them in a troll hole. Even so, I think the absence of evidence is itself telling. If either sword was in the hands of a capable warrior or king, why we'd be hearing about it. It would leave pages written in orcish blood in history, and not just the history of orcs. Remember the story of Turin in the first age; when the black sword Anglachel was at work, it wasn't just orcs who knew about it, the humans on whose behalf the sword was wielded knew of it too.

    The most likely solution is that , like the ring, they have been lost, forgotten at the equivalent of a bottom of a river for a very long time. I'm not saying they were never wielded in battle at all between the first age and the troll hole, but if they were there is no record of it.

    As to the goblins remembering 'Biter' and 'Beater', this is not a problem if we accept the Silmarrillion's origin story that they were created from Elves. If they were, that means they don't have a natural end to their life expectancy. And in any event, pretty much everyone in Middle Earth lives a long time. Dwarves live long lives, and Treebeard is old enough to remember the woods before the first age. Even hobbits age slowly -- their 33 is equivalent to our 21, and their 50 to our 33. It's only the humans who live such short lives and die like mayflies, which may in part explain the hunger of the Nazgul for eternal life through the rings, and the relative impatience, hot-temper, and hastiness of humans. But I digress.

    At any rate, if orcs are immortal, most will still die young because they live lifestyles where brutal, violent death is common at a very young age. But those who live and survive could live a very, very long time indeed. Perhaps some very sharp and clever band of orcs were in the siege of gondolin and saw the Foe-Hammer wielded in person. Then the War of Wrath happened, and rather than die like all the rest of the hosts of Angband they very intelligently fled and hid themselves in the mountains. There they gathered followers and made a living, of sorts, robbing and enslaving random travelers. And as folk of evil heart would do, up in the mountains they have little to do save remember the time when they were lords, remember old grudges and feuds, growing ever more bitter and hateful as they meditate on it over and over again.

    If that is what the goblin king and his chief soldiers were, it is not surprising both that they would recognize Beater and Biter at once and , furthermore, that they would hate those who possess them. It may have been five thousand years, but to a people for whom the years are as the blink of an eye, it does not signify, and the hateful memories have not become less hateful in the passage of time.

    There is nothing in the textual evidence to contradict this theory, and quite a bit to support it, though of course I am in the market for a better one if someone can produce a better explanation.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-07-31 at 10:46 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Right, thank you. Correction noted.
    You're welcome.



    There is no direct knowledge of Glamdring or Orcrist between the time Turgon carried the one, and the time Bilbo found them in a troll hole. Even so, I think the absence of evidence is itself telling. If either sword was in the hands of a capable warrior or king, why we'd be hearing about it. It would leave pages written in orcish blood in history, and not just the history of orcs. Remember the story of Turin in the first age; when the black sword Anglachel was at work, it wasn't just orcs who knew about it, the humans on whose behalf the sword was wielded knew of it too.

    The most likely solution is that , like the ring, they have been lost, forgotten at the equivalent of a bottom of a river for a very long time. I'm not saying they were never wielded in battle at all between the first age and the troll hole, but if they were there is no record of it.
    Disagree, there are huge parts of Arda's history we know nothing about. We don't know the name of even one king of either Cardolan or Rhudaur for example. There's plenty of room for the swords to have gained a bloody reputation among the orcs without Elrond knowing about it. Maybe they were looted by servants of Morgoth in Gondolin, taken South or East by Men of the Shadow after the War of Wrath and later claimed by opponents of the Dark Lord(s) there (maybe in relation with the Blue Wizards) and have only been taken back to the North-West of Middle-Earth as Sauron's influence grew more present. Possibly by people looking for allies in Lindon. If these elf-friends had a run-in with the Great Goblin before being eaten by the trolls a few decades before The Hobbit it'd even explain how the Great Goblin could recognize them by sight.

    If that is what the goblin king and his chief soldiers were
    Great Goblin.
    Spoiler: later in the book, I guess
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    As far as we know, Azog was the only goblin to style himself "king", though his son Bolg (our best evidence for "orcs don't age", by the way) probably did so as well.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Eh, Elrond was a pretty learned and influential figure. I cant imagine that he would just not notice if a pair of elven blades hung out in a fairly major period of human history doing their thing out in the open. Thats the sort of thing that the elves would at least keep an eye on if they could help it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Eh, Elrond was a pretty learned and influential figure. I cant imagine that he would just not notice if a pair of elven blades hung out in a fairly major period of human history doing their thing out in the open. Thats the sort of thing that the elves would at least keep an eye on if they could help it.
    Not that much communication happening between the North-East of Middle-Earth and the rest of it. And the Elves are explictly not interested in Men who aren't descended fromy the Three Tribes of the Edain, so...
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    Also, would Elrond be looking for references to "Biter" and "Beater"? It's unlikely the names Orcrist and Glamdring would still be naturally known to anyone around if the swords had been out of Elven hands for a while, Elrond himself only seemed to find out those names from reading the runes on the blades.

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    Alternate theory about Orcrist and Glamdring's history: They were loot kept by the goblins for a very long time, until the trolls got a hold of them. It's speculated the the trolls robbed other robbers. I can easily see those weapons being part of treasure looted from Gondolin and kept as trophies by the goblins and remembered - kind of like the Crown Jewels. Then at some point in the chaos of the Third Age the goblins lost their hoard - either robbed directly, or the goblins who were keeping the weapons were wiped out in one of the many wars and it was eventually found by the trolls. So the goblins would have far more recent memory of them while they were still lost to elves and men.
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    I'm not sure that troll hole was originally a troll hole, it has a door well crafted enough that Gandalf and a company of dwarves can't get in without the key, even with magic. That's no ordinary door. Could be some kind of ancient vault.

    Counterpoint: One of the trolls has a magic wallet. Perhaps they are mages.


    The swords could be either loot or carried away by refugees from Gondolin. Either is plausible. Any history is likely to be long and complicated, changing hands many times.

    Not even Gandalf recognises them as Gondolin swords, Elrond knows because he's Elrond, to anyone else (except maybe Glorfindel), they're just damned good swords. Some random villager could find it in a quarry and hang it over the fire for generations to fight off bandit and raiders and such.

    The trolls are fairly recent immigrants, having come down from the mountains to look for people to eat. They've been around long enough that the locals leave, and Elrond's people knows there are trolls in the area, but either haven't found them or haven't looked yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Also, would Elrond be looking for references to "Biter" and "Beater"? It's unlikely the names Orcrist and Glamdring would still be naturally known to anyone around if the swords had been out of Elven hands for a while, Elrond himself only seemed to find out those names from reading the runes on the blades.
    Maybe, actually. "Beater" is the Foe-Hammer and "Biter" is the Goblin Cleaver. The names actually arent disconnected from their elvish names. Beyond that, i kind of assume that the elves would be at least passingly interested in anything that the orcs abjectly fear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I'm not sure that troll hole was originally a troll hole, it has a door well crafted enough that Gandalf and a company of dwarves can't get in without the key, even with magic. That's no ordinary door. Could be some kind of ancient vault.

    Counterpoint: One of the trolls has a magic wallet. Perhaps they are mages.
    Or they took it from somebody else.


    While the narrator says "Troll's purses are the mischief, and this was no exception", given that the events of The Hobbit were later recorded by Bilbo in-universe, there may be an element of "the narrator is Bilbo" - so he may not be 100% accurate about everything in-story, having his own perspective.
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    Okay, let's knock this out.

    Chapter Five: Riddles in the Dark.

    This is the one that was most heavily altered between editions, with Tolkien adapting it to better tie to Lord of the Rings in the second edition.

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    Can't tell a difference between eyes open and eyes shut? That's a problem.

    Oh, right away. A tiny ring of cold metal... This is it. This is the Ring, isn't it?

    Yes, yes it is.

    ...I know that the Ring is meant to tempt you. I don't know which parts of the chapter were rewritten versus not, so I'm wondering if Bilbo imagining himself frying bacon and eggs in that exact moment is just the Hobbit missing his hole or something more sinister.

    I know that the health risks of tobacco use were not well understood at this time but stopping for a smoke right now seems particularly unwise.

    Though at least he realizes the problem.

    Inside your pants is probably a bad place to keep a magic blade.

    Luckily it's a goblin-killing elf knife, so it glows. He can see, at least a little.

    Tolkien uses a lot of words to say "hobbits are smol, sneaky, and good at navigating tunnels." It's not bad, but I get the feeling I'd have been told off for such lengthy prose back in school.

    After a short while, our poor hobbit treads into icy cold water...

    And he can't swim. Not good.

    Tolkien describes the process of evolution quite efficiently.

    Older than the Goblins? You know, I can't help but note that Lovecraft died the year this came out. I seriously doubt that they would have gotten along, but this talk of strange, ancient slimy creatures in old caves brings his works to mind.

    "Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum" Yeah, ain't no lead burying here.

    In Lord of the Rings, unless I drastically misunderstand things, Gollum is a hobbit corrupted by The Ring, twisted in mind until all that remains is a wretch. Here he is described as some kind of... Abomination. Humanoid, tes, ut a monster of unknown origin, implicitly in these caves long before the goblins were.

    And he occasionally eats goblins. You know, Orcs. What I've seen of The Lord of The Rings implied that he was a weak and pathetic creature, but here he's top if the food chain. Admittedly an ambush predator, but still.

    I'll also note that the films make him pale, but the passage describes him as being as dark as darkness, except for his pale eyes.

    Though his use of a boat makes him more of a fairytale monster, like the trolls. I don't know why exactly it's the boat that makes me think that, but...

    Gollum calls himself precious? And he refers to Bilbo as the same, with intent to eat Bilbo I think? Yes, this is interesting.

    Oh, hint at what Gollum was long before? Is that original to this, or an edit?

    and here we go, a challenge of riddles.

    I never would have guessed 'wind' for Gollum's second riddle. Bilbo is a clever boy.

    Sun on the daisies... Yes, initially Gollum is described as an abomination, but during the challenge... It might be hindsight speaking, but it seems that anyone who has paid attention thus far might guess that he was once a hobbit.

    And I don't even need to turn the page to know that "A box without hinges, key, or lid, Yet golden treasure inside is hidden" is 'an egg.'

    "Alive without breath" was presented in the Dragon Compendium as an archetypical example of the kinds of riddles that are good for challenges in an adventure.

    ...And Bilbo literally only gets it by chance.

    He gets Gollum with another simple Riddle, and then Gollum gets him with yet another riddle that he only gets by dumb luck.

    "What have I got in my pocket" is another one of those archetypical questions, but... Here Bilbo uses it by accident. I legitimately don't know if this is a first use with the trope being simplified, or if Bilbo using it by accident is Tolkien playing with an established trope.

    Only now do we find out that the Riddle Game is an old game covered by Ancient Laws... Honestly, it makes the whole setting feel as though it has a touch of the Fair Folk to it... and Bilbo does allegedly have fairy ancestry... Discussion for later.

    Ohh, the Ring... Gollum has misplaced it.

    An allusion to Sauron.

    I'd almost feel bad for Gollum breaking down over losing "his precious" is the text describing how he'd come to acquire it didn't make it abundantly clear that it had destroyed him in mind and body, and if whatever that was good in him wasn't long gone by this point.

    I assume that is an edit, however.

    Gollum, not knowing that Bilbo is listening in his break down elaborates on what the Ring can do, panics about Bilbo escaping, runs off to the back door that Bilbo doesn't know about, and leads Bilbo right there.

    Bilbo gets a sudden urge to kill Gollum, only to quash it as it would not be right or fair... The Ring at work?

    Bilbo eventually passes Gollum with, what for a Hobbit, would be a mighty leap. I was under the impression that on a Hobbit's fingers the Ring only made you invisible, but understand that its true effect, in the hands of someone who is not strong enough to use its full power, is to amplify the ability you already have—tricksy hobbitses are naturally quiet and sneaky, yes they is, so the ring hides them from sight.

    Is it perhaps possible that it has amplified the effects of the surge of adrenaline that at realizing that Gollum had detected his presence, just enough that he could escape? It is perhaps a stretch, but...

    Other than a brief mishap of being spotted by goblins because the Ring was in his pocket, Bilbo is able to escape after that, and...Chapter end.


    Spoiler: All together now
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    Not much happens in this chapter... But as I understand the story to come, and of course the sequel, this is the single most important chapter in all of Tolkien's canon.

    that said, and I touched on this a bit earlier...

    Bilbo, per the first chapter, allegedly has fairy ancestry through his mother's family.

    In this chapter, the chllgne of riddles, the "game of riddles" is refered to as something honored and sacred, govenred by ancient laws.

    And... And Gollum, after losing this challenge against a being of alledgly fae blood, tries to break his word and in doing so no only ends up holding up his end of a deal inspite of himself but losing his most prized posession in th eprocess.

    This is, of course, all total concidence in-story, but I can't help but draw the parrleles to stories of people trying to get one over The Fair Folk here. Just something that occured to me as I read.

    I have to wonder if that was deloberate. Tolkien playing with an old fairytale trope.
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    As I understand it, the main difference between the versions is:

    Spoiler
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    In the original, Gollum actually *did* bet the Ring on the outcome of the riddle game, and was genuinely distraught when he couldn't find it and was thus unable to give Bilbo his "prize", so he showed him the way out in lieu and they parted courteously.


    Obviously, this makes no sense whatsoever given what the Ring later turns out to be. Gollum's personality is all wrong and the idea that he'd actually give up the Ring willingly is nonsense. Hence the changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Tolkien uses a lot of words to say "hobbits are smol, sneaky, and good at navigating tunnels." It's not bad, but I get the feeling I'd have been told off for such lengthy prose back in school.
    Gotta know the rules before you can break them right.

    Older than the Goblins? You know, I can't help but note that Lovecraft died the year this came out. I seriously doubt that they would have gotten along, but this talk of strange, ancient slimy creatures in old caves brings his works to mind.
    The Nameless Things that are mentionned a couple of times in his work are often thought to be hommages or at least nods to Lovecraft, yes.

    "Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum"
    "Get off my lawn, filthy hobbitses!" yelled Old Man Gollum.

    In Lord of the Rings, unless I drastically misunderstand things, Gollum is a hobbit corrupted by The Ring, twisted in mind until all that remains is a wretch. Here he is described as some kind of... Abomination. Humanoid, tes, ut a monster of unknown origin, implicitly in these caves long before the goblins were.
    These aren't really contradictory. Also Bilbo is the in-universe author of The Hobbit and, he didn't know jack about Gollum's history.

    And he occasionally eats goblins. You know, Orcs. What I've seen of The Lord of The Rings implied that he was a weak and pathetic creature, but here he's top if the food chain. Admittedly an ambush predator, but still.
    Keep in mind that Tolkien's orcs are about the smallest of all of fantasy, and he's implied to prey on the weaker ones, but yes Gollum is tougher than he looks. And he never fights fair, either.

    I'll also note that the films make him pale, but the passage describes him as being as dark as darkness, except for his pale eyes.
    A good call on Jackson's part, if you ask me.

    And I don't even need to turn the page to know that "A box without hinges, key, or lid, Yet golden treasure inside is hidden" is 'an egg.'

    "Alive without breath" was presented in the Dragon Compendium as an archetypical example of the kinds of riddles that are good for challenges in an adventure.

    ...And Bilbo literally only gets it by chance.
    Okay but what are the odds it was this book that made them famous?


    "What have I got in my pocket" is another one of those archetypical questions, but... Here Bilbo uses it by accident. I legitimately don't know if this is a first use with the trope being simplified, or if Bilbo using it by accident is Tolkien playing with an established trope.
    There's a mention in The Lord of the Rings of loremasters of later years having serious debates on whether that was a legal question. So, I'm guessing pretty new. Also I'm confident this question is "archetypical" because people love referencing Tolkien.
    Although, knowing The Professor (which I don't), this question was probably inspired by the Vafþrúðnismál in which Odin wins a riddle contest by asking "What did Odin whisper at the ear of his son before laying him on the pyre?" Which is a blatantly unfair question.

    I'd almost feel bad for Gollum breaking down over losing "his precious" is the text describing how he'd come to acquire it didn't make it abundantly clear that it had destroyed him in mind and body, and if whatever that was good in him wasn't long gone by this point.
    *Sighs*



    Bilbo eventually passes Gollum with, what for a Hobbit, would be a mighty leap. I was under the impression that on a Hobbit's fingers the Ring only made you invisible, but understand that its true effect, in the hands of someone who is not strong enough to use its full power, is to amplify the ability you already have—tricksy hobbitses are naturally quiet and sneaky, yes they is, so the ring hides them from sight.
    It's a bit trickier than that. The Ring can amplify one's own strengths and talents but it can also move its wearer to the Unseen World where one can't be, well, seen by people in the" normal" world. This explains why Men can also become invisible by wearing the Ring. Ultimately, because no-one truly masters the Ring in the story, the extant of its power (and of its consciousness) stay very vague.

    Is it perhaps possible that it has amplified the effects of the surge of adrenaline that at realizing that Gollum had detected his presence, just enough that he could escape? It is perhaps a stretch, but...
    Yes it is possible. There are arguments to be made for and against it though.


    Not much happens in this chapter... But as I understand the story to come, and of course the sequel, this is the single most important chapter in all of Tolkien's canon.
    Eh. The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's magnum opus but it is of surprisingly litlle relevance to the rest of the Legendarium all tucked at the end, like that. I'd say "The Darkening of Valinor" is the most important chapter of the "canon" (Ainulindalë doesn't count because creation myths are cheating.)

    that said, and I touched on this a bit earlier...

    Bilbo, per the first chapter, allegedly has fairy ancestry through his mother's family.

    In this chapter, the chllgne of riddles, the "game of riddles" is refered to as something honored and sacred, govenred by ancient laws.

    And... And Gollum, after losing this challenge against a being of alledgly fae blood, tries to break his word and in doing so no only ends up holding up his end of a deal inspite of himself but losing his most prized posession in th eprocess.

    This is, of course, all total concidence in-story, but I can't help but draw the parrleles to stories of people trying to get one over The Fair Folk here. Just something that occured to me as I read.

    I have to wonder if that was deloberate. Tolkien playing with an old fairytale trope.
    Huh, I never thought of that. Neat.
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    Fair folk is of course a good call, but it's also worth talking about Tolkien's background. As a linguist, he was an expert on old and Middle-english and Anglo-saxon poetry and history. Which also ties into Norse and Germanic mythology. And the Hobbit already takes tons from those myths. There's all the names: the twelve dwarves and Gandalf all come from a Norse list of Dwarf names. Magic rings are plentiful in those myths, too, and they grant all kinds of powers. Though I don't think there's one that makes you invisibile in Germanic myth, that's usually hats. There's the Ring of Gygas in Greek Philosophy, though.

    Anyway, the Anglo-Saxons and Norse loved their riddles and riddle-contests. And we have dozens of riddles passed down in the sagas and otherwise written down. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the riddles, and the rules for riddle-contests that Tolkien mentions here, are directly from those stories.

    Edit: for example, the Hervarar Saga is explicitely called out as an inspiration, in which the king proclaims:

    King Heithrek himself made a vow that however deeply a man should have wronged him, if he came into his power he should not be deprived of the chance of receiving a trial by the King's judges; but he should get off scot free if he could propound riddles which the King could not answer. But when people tried to ask the King riddles, not one was put to him which he could not solve.
    The king, is of course, brought down by his own hubris, when he is visited by a man who calls himself Gestumblindi, the blind guest. Who is Odin.

    By my count, Odin asks him 30 riddles, the King answers them all, until the last one:

    Heithrek replied:
    You are hard up when you have to turn back to things of long ago to bring forward against me. That is Othin riding his horse Sleipnir. It had eight feet and Othin two, and they had three eyes—Sleipnir two and Othin one.

    Gestumblindi said:
    Tell me lastly, Heithrek, if you are wiser than any other prince, what did Othin whisper in Balder's ear, before he was placed upon the pyre?

    The King replied:
    I am sure it was something scandalous and cowardly and thoroughly contemptible. You are the only person who knows the words which you spoke, you evil and wretched creature.

    Then the King drew Tyrfing, and struck at Gestumblindi; but he changed himself into a falcon and flew out through the window of the hall. And the sword struck the tail of the falcon; and that is why it has had a short tail ever since, according to heathen superstition. But Othin had now become wroth with the King for striking at him; and that night he was slain.
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    This is where Tolkien shines: creating a character like Gollum; and although he is planning to murder our hero, the reader's heart breaks for him. We feel all his sorrow and wretchedness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    that said, and I touched on this a bit earlier...

    Bilbo, per the first chapter, allegedly has fairy ancestry through his mother's family.

    In this chapter, the chllgne of riddles, the "game of riddles" is refered to as something honored and sacred, govenred by ancient laws.

    And... And Gollum, after losing this challenge against a being of alledgly fae blood, tries to break his word and in doing so no only ends up holding up his end of a deal inspite of himself but losing his most prized posession in th eprocess.

    This is, of course, all total concidence in-story, but I can't help but draw the parrleles to stories of people trying to get one over The Fair Folk here. Just something that occured to me as I read.

    I have to wonder if that was deloberate. Tolkien playing with an old fairytale trope.
    It is quite possible it is the Ring itself influencing events here. There is a similar thought, that the ring has influential powers posited by Frodo in LotR but I don't want to go into it more as that's kinda spoilers for LotR.

    The world itself is somewhat magical, Words and Oaths have Power, as I said somewhere in such a context, quite fittingly for a Linguist like Tolkien really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Okay, let's knock this out.

    Chapter Five: Riddles in the Dark.

    This is the one that was most heavily altered between editions, with Tolkien adapting it to better tie to Lord of the Rings in the second edition.
    Here's a side by side comparison of the two versions, so you can see exactly what alterations happened. Scroll down and you can see the changes in blue.

    Luckily it's a goblin-killing elf knife, so it glows. He can see, at least a little.
    So a racist blade , you're saying . Yes, I said racist and not speciesist because Orcs and humans can breed true in the Tolkienverse, and so can elves and humans. They are all the same species.

    I've gotta wonder at why the elves would make a knife that has the superpower of glowing bright blue in the presence of enemies. It may show Tolkien didn't do a lot of Trench-raiding. The last thing I would want , if I needed a knife in the middle of no-man's land at night, would be a knife that would light up the place brighter than a WP flare as soon as I pulled it out. Leave that sucker at home along with the chocolate hammer; it's no use for anything involving stealth.

    ... Which is a problem, because all hobbits do is stealth.

    And he occasionally eats goblins. You know, Orcs. What I've seen of The Lord of The Rings implied that he was a weak and pathetic creature, but here he's top if the food chain. Admittedly an ambush predator, but still.
    A very hungry one, also. Goblin is the sort of dish, I'm given to understand, that the modern Michelin guide would call an "acquired taste" or perhaps a "regional delicacy". In other words, most people vomit on the first bite. But Gollum can get it down and keep it down, which shows just how rare meat is down there.

    On the plus side, I imagine an alternate history version of the Hobbit where Gollum opens a weight loss clinic advertising the wonders of a protein-rich carb-poor diet for getting it off and keeping it off. He'd probably have a lot of takers in the Shire. Those he didn't eat, of course.

    Also, it may be hear your later but you'll notice he comments about twisting that 'nasty young squeaker'. He's talking about eating goblin children. Less tough and gamey than the big ones, don't you know.

    Gollum calls himself precious? And he refers to Bilbo as the same, with intent to eat Bilbo I think? Yes, this is interesting.
    Gollum has been living alone a very, very long time. Losing track of things like personal pronouns and so forth, which is something a linguist would spot.

    and here we go, a challenge of riddles.
    Wait, what? If you fail, you're just going to sit there and let him eat you Bilbo? Don't be ridiculous. Shouldn't bet what you aren't prepared to lose.

    Only now do we find out that the Riddle Game is an old game covered by Ancient Laws... Honestly, it makes the whole setting feel as though it has a touch of the Fair Folk to it... and Bilbo does allegedly have fairy ancestry... Discussion for later.
    Agreed. I think this was a basic fairy tale with fairy tale tropes before Tolkien decided to set it in the larger universe of the Silmarils and make it a grander thing than it was at first.

    Bilbo gets a sudden urge to kill Gollum, only to quash it as it would not be right or fair... The Ring at work?
    I don't think so. I think any reasonable creature would have felt that same urge. I know that if *I* were in his shoes I would most assuredly have gutted Gollum like a fish. It is wrong to judge by skin color and not by character, but we've had a really, really good luck at Gollum's character. At his treacherous, murderous character, and there's no way I'd leave an enemy like that behind me robbed but alive. For all I know I might get lost and turned around and I do NOT want to encounter this creature in the tunnels again.

    Heh ... reading about Gandalf's pursuit of Gollum in Fellowship of the ring, he tells us of the rumor of him in Mirkwood, the "ghost which drank blood", which "slipped into nests to find the eggs, into windows to find cradles".

    Because Bilbo didn't kill Gollum now, who knows how many human and goblin children he unwittingly condemned to death at Gollum's hands? Gollum has to eat, after all, and he is demonstrably not picky.


    Other than a brief mishap of being spotted by goblins because the Ring was in his pocket, Bilbo is able to escape after that, and...Chapter end.
    Actually... reading closely...

    Here's the original paragraph. I'll bold the bits I think significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Original Hobbit
    Bilbo blinked, and then he suddenly saw the goblins: goblins in full armour with drawn swords sitting just inside the door, and watching it with wide eyes, and the passage that led to it! They saw him sooner than he saw them, and with yells of delight they rushed upon him.

    Whether it was accident or presence of mind, I don't know. Accident, I think, because the hobbit was not used yet to his new treasure. Anyway he slipped the ring on his left hand—and the goblins stopped short. They could not see a sign of him. Then they yelled twice as loud as before, but not so delightedly
    Now compare with the revised paragraph

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTR Hobbit
    Bilbo blinked, and then suddenly he saw the goblins: goblins in full armour with drawn swords sitting just inside the door, and watching it with wide eyes, and watching the passage that led to it. They were aroused, alert, ready for anything.

    They saw him sooner than he saw them. Yes, they saw him. Whether it was an accident, or a last trick of the ring before it took a new master, it was not on his finger. With yells of delight the goblins rushed upon him.
    A pang of fear and loss, like an echo of Gollum's misery, smote Bilbo, and forgetting even to draw his sword he stuck his hands into his pockets. And there was the ring still, in his left pocket, and it slipped on his finger. The goblins stopped short. They could not see a sign of him. He had vanished. They yelled twice as loud as before, but not so delightedly.
    This is the moment the ring betrayed him.

    Or it tried to.

    We can see that it was influencing the goblins to greater alertness and then treacherously slipped off Bilbo's finger in the hopes that Bilbo would be caught and the ring would be taken by a goblin, which could then be influenced to take it to Mordor.

    But it failed. This time.



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    Huh... Bilbo's kind of a jerk in the original version.

    "Uh, the creature must have lost it and I must have found it... Huh, I'll just leave the creature to stew and extort a second prize out of him. Finders keepers."

    I mean, yeah, he needed to get out, but in the original version, Gollum was no longer a threat to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I've gotta wonder at why the elves would make a knife that has the superpower of glowing bright blue in the presence of enemies. It may show Tolkien didn't do a lot of Trench-raiding. The last thing I would want , if I needed a knife in the middle of no-man's land at night, would be a knife that would light up the place brighter than a WP flare as soon as I pulled it out. Leave that sucker at home along with the chocolate hammer; it's no use for anything involving stealth.
    The intensity of the glow determines how close the enemies are - once it starts glowing very faintly, you know the enemies are within a few hundred yards, then as it begins to brighten more, you know the enemies are guessing closer. You can also pull it out just a little way, if you suspect enemies might be getting near. It's more useful for defenders - guards who want a proximity alarm, than for night attackers.

    Unlike in the movies, a point is in the book of how all the First Age elf-weapons glow like that, not just Sting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post

    So a racist blade , you're saying . Yes, I said racist and not speciesist because Orcs and humans can breed true in the Tolkienverse, and so can elves and humans. They are all the same species.

    I've gotta wonder at why the elves would make a knife that has the superpower of glowing bright blue in the presence of enemies. It may show Tolkien didn't do a lot of Trench-raiding. The last thing I would want , if I needed a knife in the middle of no-man's land at night, would be a knife that would light up the place brighter than a WP flare as soon as I pulled it out.
    Because the orcs hate that light.


    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    But Gollum can get it down and keep it down, which shows just how rare meat is down there.
    Gollum's not one to overcook food.


    I don't think so. I think any reasonable creature would have felt that same urge. I know that if *I* were in his shoes I would most assuredly have gutted Gollum like a fish. It is wrong to judge by skin color and not by character, but we've had a really, really good luck at Gollum's character. At his treacherous, murderous character, and there's no way I'd leave an enemy like that behind me robbed but alive. For all I know I might get lost and turned around and I do NOT want to encounter this creature in the tunnels again.

    Heh ... reading about Gandalf's pursuit of Gollum in Fellowship of the ring, he tells us of the rumor of him in Mirkwood, the "ghost which drank blood", which "slipped into nests to find the eggs, into windows to find cradles".

    Because Bilbo didn't kill Gollum now, who knows how many human and goblin children he unwittingly condemned to death at Gollum's hands? Gollum has to eat, after all, and he is demonstrably not picky.
    Most people don't tend to resort to murder when they have other options you know. Also that last argument cuts both way:
    Spoiler
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    Had Gollum died there, Sauron would have won.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Huh... Bilbo's kind of a jerk in the original version.

    "Uh, the creature must have lost it and I must have found it... Huh, I'll just leave the creature to stew and extort a second prize out of him. Finders keepers."

    I mean, yeah, he needed to get out, but in the original version, Gollum was no longer a threat to him.
    Gollum expressed the desire to eat him before. Bilbo's not the biggest jerk here. Plus, he really needs to get out of there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Gollum expressed the desire to eat him before. Bilbo's not the biggest jerk here. Plus, he really needs to get out of there.
    Yeah, but still.

    Regardless, I think the second version of the chapter makes for a better story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari
    Most people don't tend to resort to murder when they have other options you know.
    Remember the context. Bilbo's standing right behind him and listened to his talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTR
    Curse it! curse it! curse it!" hissed Gollum. "Curse the Baggins! It's gone! What has it got in its pocketses? Oh we guess, we guess, my precious. He's found it, yes he must have. My birthday-present."

    Bilbo pricked up his ears. He was at last beginning to guess himself. He hurried a little, getting as close as he dared behind Gollum, who was still going quickly, not looking back, but turning his head from side to side, as Bilbo could see from the faint glimmer on the walls.

    "My birthday-present! Curse it! How did we lose it, my precious? Yes, that's it. When we came this way last, when we twisted that nassty young squeaker. That's it. Curse it! It slipped from us, after all these ages and ages! It's gone, gollum!"

    Suddenly Gollum sat down and began to weep, a whistling and gurgling sound horrible to listen to. Bilbo halted and flattened himself against the tunnel-wall. After a while Gollum stopped weeping and began to talk. He seemed to be having an argument with himself.

    "It's no good going back there to search, no. We doesn't remember all the places we've visited. and it's no use. The Baggins has got it in its pocketses; the nassty noser has found it, we ways.

    "We guesses, precious, only guesses. We can't know till we find the nassty creature and squeezes it. But it doesn't know what the present can do, does it? It'll just keep it in its pocketses. It doesn't know, and it can't go far. It's lost itself, the nassty nosey thing. It doesn't know the way out. It said so.

    "It said so, yes; but it's tricksy. It doesn't say what it means. It won't say what it's got in its pocketses. It knows. It knows a way in, it must know a way out, yes. It's off to the back-door. to the back-door, that's it.

    "The goblins will catch it then. It can't get out that way, precious.

    "Ssss, sss, gollum! Goblinses! Yes, but if it's got the present, our precious present, then goblinses will get it, gollum! They'll find it, they'll find out what it does. We shan't ever be safe again, never, gollum! One of the goblinses will put it on, and then no one will see him. He'll be there but not seen. Not even our clever eyeses will notice him; and he'll come creepsy and tricksy and catch us, gollum, gollum!"

    "Then let's stop talking, precious, and make haste. If the Baggins has gone that way, we must go quick and see. Go! Not far now. Make haste!"
    So, not only am I in the middle of a mountain surrounding in my enemies, not only did I just win a riddle game against a creature who was willing to eat me, but I'm now standing behind him listening to him plot my murder.

    You think I'm going to leave this creature alive in the tunnels? Someone who knows the ins and outs of the place far better than I do, is a dab hand at killing and has just voiced the plan to kill me, specifically?

    No. This is at least as justifiable as Haley whacking Crystal in the shower.

    In the fifty years I have walked this earth in real life, I have had to kill zero human beings, justifiably or not. But then, the number of people who have made a realistic threat to eat me while I am in the wilderness far from civilization or law surrounded by enemies who would kill me without a second thought is also nil. Should either situation change, I may update those counts. Or not.

    What people do on adventures is NOT how we live in ordinary civil society. That's why it's "civil".

    Also that last argument cuts both way:
    Spoiler
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    Had Gollum died there, Sauron would have won.
    If Gollum had died the Powers -- or the author -- would have had to find another solution to the problem. Which is a different thing from it being the only possible outcome. Unless Eru Illuvator really wants to save or damn the entire world based on the actions of one hobbit decades before the protagonists of the adventure we're alluding to were even born.

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    I've seen suggestions in LOTR that the original version, with the "present" is what Bilbo told the dwarves, and Gandalf, at some point, before admitting the truth to Gandalf and later, the Council of Elrond - but, at least as written in the revised version of The Hobbit, Bilbo doesn't conceal much initially - just the existence of the Ring itself, and his account of Gollum's behaviour is much more accurate:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hobbit
    "And then I couldn't think of any other question with him sitting beside me," ended Bilbo; "so I said 'what's in my pocket?' And he couldn't guess in three goes. So I said: 'What about your promise? Show me the way out!' But he came at me to kill me, and I ran, and fell over, and he missed me in the dark. Then I followed him, because I heard him talking to himself. He thought I really knew the way out, and so he was making for it. And then he sat down in the entrance, and I could not get by. So I jumped over him and escaped, and ran down to the gate."
    "What about guards?" they asked. "Weren't there any?"
    "O yes! lots of them; but I dodged 'em. I got stuck in the door, which was only open a crack, and I lost lots of buttons," he said sadly, looking at his torn clothes. "But I squeezed through all right - and here I am."
    The dwarves looked at him with quite a new respect, when he talked about dodging guards, jumping over Gollum, and squeezing through, as if it was not very difficult or very alarming.
    "What did I tell you?" said Gandalf laughing. "Mr. Baggins has more about him than you guess."
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Rings
    "Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his "birthday present". The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning I had that all was not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from him without doing greater harm; and I had no right to do so anyway. I could only watch and wait. I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back."
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Rings
    "I will do as you bid. But I will now tell the true story, and if some here have heard me tell it otherwise" – he looked sidelong at Gloin – "I ask them to forget it and forgive me. I only wished to claim the treasure as my very own in those days, and to be rid of the name of thief that was put on me."
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Rings
    Prologue
    ...
    Now it is a curious fact that this is not the story as Bilbo first told it to his companions. To them his account was that Gollum had promised to give him a present, if he won the game.

    Presumably, after the existence of the Ring was revealed to the Dwarfs in Mirkwood, was when Bilbo changed the story he told of his encounter, from the much more accurate one, to the much less accurate one, with him telling the same story to Gandalf after the Battle of the Five Armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post

    So, not only am I in the middle of a mountain surrounding in my enemies, not only did I just win a riddle game against a creature who was willing to eat me, but I'm now standing behind him listening to him plot my murder.

    You think I'm going to leave this creature alive in the tunnels? Someone who knows the ins and outs of the place far better than I do, is a dab hand at killing and has just voiced the plan to kill me, specifically?

    No. This is at least as justifiable as Haley whacking Crystal in the shower.
    Bilbo actually does consider the "Gollum's planning to kill me" rationalisation - but rejects it:


    Quote Originally Posted by The Hobbit
    Bilbo almost stopped breathing, and went stiff himself. He was desperate. He must get away, out of this horrible darkness, while he had any strength left. He must fight. He must stab the foul thing, put its eyes out, kill it. It meant to kill him. No, not a fair fight. He was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or tried to yet. And he was miserable, alone, lost. A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror, welled up in Bilbo's heart: a glimpse of endless unmarked days without light or hope of betterment, hard stone, cold fish, sneaking and whispering. All these thoughts passed in a flash of a second. He trembled. And then quite suddenly in another flash, as if lifted by a new strength and resolve, he leaped.

    No great leap for a man, but a leap in the dark. Straight over Gollum's head he jumped, seven feet forward and three in the air; indeed, had he known it, he only just missed cracking his skull on the low arch of the passage.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-08-04 at 01:47 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Remember the context. Bilbo's standing right behind him and listened to his talk.



    So, not only am I in the middle of a mountain surrounding in my enemies, not only did I just win a riddle game against a creature who was willing to eat me, but I'm now standing behind him listening to him plot my murder.

    You think I'm going to leave this creature alive in the tunnels? Someone who knows the ins and outs of the place far better than I do, is a dab hand at killing and has just voiced the plan to kill me, specifically?

    No. This is at least as justifiable as Haley whacking Crystal in the shower.

    In the fifty years I have walked this earth in real life, I have had to kill zero human beings, justifiably or not. But then, the number of people who have made a realistic threat to eat me while I am in the wilderness far from civilization or law surrounded by enemies who would kill me without a second thought is also nil. Should either situation change, I may update those counts. Or not.

    What people do on adventures is NOT how we live in ordinary civil society. That's why it's "civil".
    You seem to be under the impression I was taking a moral stance. I was not. Most people don't decide whether to kill somebody by weighing the pros and cons of doing it. People do it or they don't and then they justify their choice. Bilbo is not use to violence, the act does not come naturally to him. Haley, to use your example, is a killer by trade, violence is an important part of her life. Murder as a solution comes more easily to her.

    You can't actually know what you would do in Bilbo's situation until you find yourself in one similar. There is not, was never, will never be any point to go "if I had been there instead of person X, I would have done Y."



    If Gollum had died the Powers -- or the author -- would have had to find another solution to the problem. Which is a different thing from it being the only possible outcome.
    You can't fault Bilbo for the bad consequences of his choice without also praise him for the good ones.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    This is a minor detail, but the reason why the blades glow is because in hands of elves they were shock and awe weapons, used in open field of combat, to strike terror into hearts of orcs, who hate light.

    They weren't made for sneaking around, anymore than they were made to be used by hobbits.

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