Rater Reads The Hobbit

[hamishspence]

You can't fault Bilbo for the bad consequences of his choice without also praise him for the good ones.

At least according to Gandalf, Bilbo's merciful moment here was a significant factor in how little the Ring managed to corrupt Bilbo over time:

"What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!"
"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."

[Sapphire Guard]

You're thinking like adventurers. That blade is for Gondolin royalty, who are not going on dungeon crawls. 'Detect assassin' is much more or a priority than 'hide location', because if they are in battle, they will have an army with them.

'Go into the enemy stronghold with a small group of friends' is not actually something people do if they have better choices.

[warty goblin]

You're thinking like adventurers. That blade is for Gondolin royalty, who are not going on dungeon crawls. 'Detect assassin' is much more or a priority than 'hide location', because if they are in battle, they will have an army with them.

'Go into the enemy stronghold with a small group of friends' is not actually something people do if they have better choices.

Quite right. These were weapons of war, meant to be used in close combat. By the time the swords come out, the orcs already know you are there, and are probably trying to kill you. The advantage offered by a sword your enemy cannot look at without blinding themselves is, in a melee, quite substantial.

[Wintermoot]

You're thinking like adventurers. That blade is for Gondolin royalty, who are not going on dungeon crawls. 'Detect assassin' is much more or a priority than 'hide location', because if they are in battle, they will have an army with them.

'Go into the enemy stronghold with a small group of friends' is not actually something people do if they have better choices.

This is the best explanation i've ever heard for the glowing swords. Makes perfect sense. They date from a period before Elves were sneaking and skulking about, hunting orcs like dogs hunting foxes in the woods. They date from a period where having something to warn you about an ambush is better than somethign to help you perform an ambush.

[hamishspence]

These were weapons of war, meant to be used in close combat. By the time the swords come out, the orcs already know you are there, and are probably trying to kill you. The advantage offered by a sword your enemy cannot look at without blinding themselves is, in a melee, quite substantial.

Makes perfect sense. They date from a period before Elves were sneaking and skulking about, hunting orcs like dogs hunting foxes in the woods. They date from a period where having something to warn you about an ambush is better than somethign to help you perform an ambush.

Which raises the question - which of the two effects (early warning of proximity, and shock/disorientation to the enemy), is the primary benefit provided?

Did the elves create glowing swords for early warning of approaching orcs, and then find out just how painful the light was to extremely close orcs?

Or did the elves create glowing swords for maximum efficiency in orc fighting, with the light making orc fighting much easier, and then discover that, as a side effect, the swords could also give them early warning of orc approach?

Or were both uses planned for from the moment they started forging the first one?

[Keltest]

Which raises the question - which of the two effects (early warning of proximity, and shock/disorientation to the enemy), is the primary benefit provided?

Did the elves create glowing swords for early warning of approaching orcs, and then find out just how painful the light was to extremely close orcs?

Or did the elves create glowing swords for maximum efficiency in orc fighting, with the light making orc fighting much easier, and then discover that, as a side effect, the swords could also give them early warning of orc approach?

Or were both uses planned for from the moment they started forging the first one?

The blinding function may have been incidental, but given that it seems to be a special kind of magic elf light of some sort rather than just equivalent to torch light, it was probably intentional, or at least a known outcome.

[tyckspoon]

Which raises the question - which of the two effects (early warning of proximity, and shock/disorientation to the enemy), is the primary benefit provided?

Did the elves create glowing swords for early warning of approaching orcs, and then find out just how painful the light was to extremely close orcs?

Or did the elves create glowing swords for maximum efficiency in orc fighting, with the light making orc fighting much easier, and then discover that, as a side effect, the swords could also give them early warning of orc approach?

Or were both uses planned for from the moment they started forging the first one?

They may well have simply forged them with the intent to create 'a weapon to fight Orcs' and had the glow come out as the result without specifically trying to get that result or placing any specific magic on the sword. Consider things like the rope, traveling cloaks, and trail rations later on, which the elves do not consider magical or enchanted - they are simply very, very good at the purpose for which they are made.

[pendell]

This is the best explanation i've ever heard for the glowing swords. Makes perfect sense. They date from a period before Elves were sneaking and skulking about, hunting orcs like dogs hunting foxes in the woods. They date from a period where having something to warn you about an ambush is better than somethign to help you perform an ambush.

Gondolim WAS a hidden kingdom though. They didn't let anyone leave once they found their way in. I assume this meant that most of their guards were light infantry concealed. I dunno if they had the same policy, but the kingdom of Menegroth to the south, also a hidden kingdom, used concealed archers to kill anyone who entered their land without warning. Orcs, men, other elves. They took their concealment seriously.

The encounter the hobbits had in Lorien is probably emblematic of most human encounters with the elves. Stumble into their woods, if they like you, they laugh at you and tell you they could shoot you in the dark. If they don't like you, they DO shoot you in the dark and your bodies are never found. You just disappear into the woods. It's one way they keep out prying eyes and door-to-door salespeople.

Glowing blue knives and swords would not have been useful in the role of 'concealed archers in the woods'. Plain wooden bows and practical non-glowing knives, however, would.

All of which is to say that there has never been a time in any age when elves did not have a strong component of stealth and secrecy in their armed forces. They had heavy infantry as well, as seen in the Great Battles , and that's probably where the glowing blue swords and knives come in handy. But there's never been a time when elves were the hunters and not the hunted. Even in the time of their greatest strength, some chose to hide themselves away, preppers storing up food in their basement against the orc/balrog/dragon apocalypse. And Gondolin was specifically created as a kingdom for just that purpose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Gondolim WAS a hidden kingdom though. They didn't let anyone leave once they found their way in. I assume this meant that most of their guards were light infantry concealed. I dunno if they had the same policy, but the kingdom of Menegroth to the south, also a hidden kingdom, used concealed archers to kill anyone who entered their land without warning. Orcs, men, other elves. They took their concealment seriously.

The Kingdom of Doriath (Menegroth is the name of the palace) was protected by the Ring of Melian, not hiding archers. Gondolin's best protection was that it was very high up in the mountains and out of the way not ligthtly armmoured patrols. Once Morgoth's forces knew the general location they managed to scout the area without the elves noticing anything amiss.

EDIT: The encounter in Lorien is typical of how the Elves act, in the Late Third Age, a time of suspicion and worry. When the elves thought they had Morgoth contained they were most likely much more relaxed.

[hamishspence]

Gondolim WAS a hidden kingdom though. They didn't let anyone leave once they found their way in. I assume this meant that most of their guards were light infantry concealed.

In Unfinished Tales's account of Tuor's coming to Gondolin, the passage to Gondolin itself has 7 gates, and each gate has its own guards, each armed and armed more ornately and impressively than the last, themed after the gate they guard.


The outermost tier of guards might be "light infantry concealed" (though, since they wear visible mail, I don't know how much concealment matters in this case), but not the innermost, not by a long shot.




One of the three weapons is the King's own personal sword. I can't see Turgon the King of Gondolin in the role of "light infantry concealed" and designing his sword accordingly, somehow.

The second, given its prominence (almost as famous as the King's sword) was probably owned by someone really prominent in the battles, and/or Gondolin's Fall - perhaps Ecthelion of the Foundation, head of all the gate guards.

The third might be closer to, as the movie The Unexpected Journey describes it, a letter-opener.

[Rater202]

I feel the need, in hindsight, to clarify something I said yesterday.

"Alive without breath" was presented in the Dragon Compendium as an archetypical example of the kinds of riddles that are good for challenges in an adventure.

...And Bilbo literally only gets it by chance.

These are two separate thoughts

The first is some trivia I felt like sharing: The Dragon Compendium has a chapter on using riddles in games, it gives "alive without breath" as an archetypical example—mentioning it and its answer come from The Hobbit by name.

The second is that I just find it amusing that Bilbo got it by accident.

I was thinking about the response that... I'm just gonna say Fyr because I'm never gonna be able to spell the full thing—regarding this book is what made it archetypical and realized there might have been some lack of clarity.

[InvisibleBison]

Which raises the question - which of the two effects (early warning of proximity, and shock/disorientation to the enemy), is the primary benefit provided

I suspect that the shock effect was the intended purpose. An early warning ability is most useful when you don't expect danger, and when you don't expect danger your sword is usually going to be sheathed.

[hamishspence]

In the movie, the glow is enough to be noticeable even when sheathed. Don't know if the books ever suggest that though.

[pendell]

The Kingdom of Doriath (Menegroth is the name of the palace) was protected by the Ring of Melian, not hiding archers. Gondolin's best protection was that it was very high up in the mountains and out of the way not ligthtly armmoured patrols. Once Morgoth's forces knew the general location they managed to scout the area without the elves noticing anything amiss.

EDIT: The encounter in Lorien is typical of how the Elves act, in the Late Third Age, a time of suspicion and worry. When the elves thought they had Morgoth contained they were most likely much more relaxed.

I was mis-remembering. I meant Nargothrond . The Silmarillion recounts that after a great battle they took to the woods and slew all who attempted to enter them.

That is , until the valiant man Turin Turambar arrived and counseled the king to eschew secrecy and march forth to open battle against the hosts of Morgoth.

Spoiler

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It doesn't go well

As towards the many gates of gondolin, they may have been impressive from the inside but they must have been well concealed from the outside. Bright walls that can be seen for miles away, and soldiers in gleaming mithril mail, would not have allowed the kingdom to remain hidden from scouts for very long. The first wave of defenses were probably the same kind of troops we met in Lorien, I deem. That's how I explain them being able to remain hidden for centuries, that plus Manwe's eagles to knock down aerial snoopers.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

And why should what the Elves of Nargothrond did or didn't do have any relation to what the Elves of Gondolin did or didn't do? They're two entirely different circumstances and two entirely different groups of people!

[Mystic Muse]

Psssht, all elves are the same.

Except in the Elder Scrolls series, where the Orcs are elves, the dwarves are elves, and the cat-people are apparently also elves.

This does not reflect my actual opinion of elves. This does apparently reflect the fluff of Elder Scrolls. Also, enjoying this readthrough, Rater.

[Lord Raziere]

and the cat-people are apparently also elves.

Khajit say lore has not confirmed this. Khajit would like this to remain as ambiguous as possible. Khajit prefer high elves to not get ideas, they already have too many.

[Mystic Muse]

Khajit say lore has not confirmed this. Khajit would like this to remain as ambiguous as possible. Khajit prefer high elves to not get ideas, they already have too many.

I was mostly going off what my friend who is a huuuuuuge fan of the setting said, I had not looked into the Khajiit being elves thing.

Back to the actual thread topic, I am soooo sad that the movies weren't better than they were. Like, even ignoring the unnecessary deviations from the book, aspects of them just make them bad movies.

[Fyraltari]

I'm just gonna say Fyr because I'm never gonna be able to spell the full thing

Fair.

I feel the need, in hindsight, to clarify something I said yesterday.These are two separate thoughts

The first is some trivia I felt like sharing: The Dragon Compendium has a chapter on using riddles in games, it gives "alive without breath" as an archetypical example—mentioning it and its answer come from The Hobbit by name.

The second is that I just find it amusing that Bilbo got it by accident.

I was thinking about the response that... I'm just gonna say Fyr because I'm never gonna be able to spell the full thing—regarding this book is what made it archetypical and realized there might have been some lack of clarity.

Right, the ellipsis really made it look like the second one was a continuation of the first. Sorry about misreading you.

I was mis-remembering. I meant Nargothrond . The Silmarillion recounts that after a great battle they took to the woods and slew all who attempted to enter them.

That is , until the valiant man Turin Turambar arrived and counseled the king to eschew secrecy and march forth to open battle against the hosts of Morgoth.

Spoiler

Show

It doesn't go well

Yes that's after the breaking of the siege of Angband and the Dagor Bragollach, i.e. once the elves start losing a lot. Of course they'd be more cautious at that point, but that wasn't the policy when the kingdom was founded.

As towards the many gates of gondolin, they may have been impressive from the inside but they must have been well concealed from the outside.

City was built in a crater in the mountains. And Morgoth had reasons to assume Turgon was hiding far more to the South.

Back to the actual thread topic, I am soooo sad that the movies weren't better than they were. Like, even ignoring the unnecessary deviations from the book, aspects of them just make them bad movies.

The Jackson adaptation of The Lord of the Rings was a labour of love and it shows. The Jackson adaptation of The Hobbit wasn't and it shows.

[Eldan]

I was mostly going off what my friend who is a huuuuuuge fan of the setting said, I had not looked into the Khajiit being elves thing.

A Basic Point of the Elder Scrolls Setting is that almost everything in it goes back to the two forces of law and chaos, from gods to planes to mortals. Under that paradigm, the two basic kinds of life are lawful elves and chaotic men. The Khajiit and certainly the Argonians don't seem to fit that paradigm, though. On the other hand, the Khajiit have various forms, and some of them look similar enough to Wood elves to be confused for them.

[Divayth Fyr]

In the movie, the glow is enough to be noticeable even when sheathed. Don't know if the books ever suggest that though.

I don't believe so. A quick check doesn't show anything to suggest that, with bits supporting the opposite interpretation (ie. the blades glowing when drawn and Frodo specifically drawing the Sting to check if there are orcs nearby. Of course Glamdring should also glow, but if I remember the movies correctly, it doesn't...

[pendell]

You can't fault Bilbo for the bad consequences of his choice without also praise him for the good ones.

I forgot to mention this last night but this WAS a good point, thank you.

As to the reason the blades glow -- my understanding is that the reason is that the blades are "alive", in some sense, and they hate goblins. It's why the black sword of Turin went all waxy for a bit when it was used to slay Beleg, a truly decent being. Later, Turin asked it a question, and the sword answered him with a voice. None of the other weapons do that, but I think that in Tolkien's verse to be enchanted is to have something of the power and knowledge of the maker. The Ring is definitely an intelligent artifact. Perhaps other items are too?

At any rate, yes, the later book plays out differently if Bilbo killed Gollum, but I don't necessarily think it all plays out the same way and ends poorly if he does.

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Admittedly, part of the reason Bilbo is so hard to corrupt is because he starts the ring off with pity and mercy. So ... what is the likely outcome if he's corrupted faster? Gandalf is a common visitor to Bag End during these times. Maybe he realizes something is wrong much, much earlier than the Birthday Party? So instead of "letting the matter be" and "trusting the words of Saruman", he does his research much earlier? So that Frodo or someone like him sets out for Rivendell years or a decade earlier, long before Gollum is captured by Sauron and forced to reveal the existence of the Ring? So that they aren't hunted by orcs across Rohan? So that the fellowship doesn't break? So that there are more people at the end of the road in Mount Doom besides Frodo and Sam? So that the ring still goes in the fire, just different from that as written in the books?

Of course, there's no guarantee of this outcome either. Another possible outcome is that the ring drives Bilbo mad, he bolts into the wild and there is waylaid or captured by orcs who take it to Sauron and the world ends.

There's a lot of different way this could go, but I suppose we'll never know since Tolkien didn't explore this.

Does anyone have a copy of Tolkien's letters handy? Did he speak more on this topic at any point , describing the different alternatives?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I forgot to mention this last night but this WAS a good point, thank you.

You're welcome.

As to the reason the blades glow -- my understanding is that the reason is that the blades are "alive", in some sense, and they hate goblins. It's why the black sword of Turin went all waxy for a bit when it was used to slay Beleg, a truly decent being.

It doesn't. It laments having done it later. In every version of the Narn i chin Hùrin, the sword only speaks in the last moment of Tùrin's life when nobody is around to confirm it does so and it's not Tùrin having finally, finally, snapped and hallucinating it.

Later, Turin asked it a question, and the sword answered him with a voice. None of the other weapons do that, but I think that in Tolkien's verse to be enchanted is to have something of the power and knowledge of the maker. The Ring is definitely an intelligent artifact. Perhaps other items are too?

That's a neat idea.

At any rate, yes, the later book plays out differently if Bilbo killed Gollum, but I don't necessarily think it all plays out the same way and ends poorly if he does.

Spoiler

Show

Admittedly, part of the reason Bilbo is so hard to corrupt is because he starts the ring off with pity and mercy. So ... what is the likely outcome if he's corrupted faster? Gandalf is a common visitor to Bag End during these times. Maybe he realizes something is wrong much, much earlier than the Birthday Party? So instead of "letting the matter be" and "trusting the words of Saruman", he does his research much earlier? So that Frodo or someone like him sets out for Rivendell years or a decade earlier, long before Gollum is captured by Sauron and forced to reveal the existence of the Ring? So that they aren't hunted by orcs across Rohan? So that the fellowship doesn't break? So that there are more people at the end of the road in Mount Doom besides Frodo and Sam? So that the ring still goes in the fire, just different from that as written in the books?

Of course, there's no guarantee of this outcome either. Another possible outcome is that the ring drives Bilbo mad, he bolts into the wild and there is waylaid or captured by orcs who take it to Sauron and the world ends.

There's a lot of different way this could go, but I suppose we'll never know since Tolkien didn't explore this.

Does anyone have a copy of Tolkien's letters handy? Did he speak more on this topic at any point , describing the different alternatives?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Spoiler

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Tolkien did write that no one would have had the will power to destroy the Ring. The Cracks of Doom is where its power is most potent, no mortal (and no elf, I'd wager) could resist it there. If Gollum doesn't show up to take it and dance near the edge it wasn't going to go into the fire.

Also a corrupted Bilbo wouldn't have given up the Ring willingly and may not have wanted to go to Rivendell in the first place (elf-things pain Gollum, remember), and I have a hard time picturing Gandalf forcefully taking the Ring from Bilbo. And if he did, I doubt Gandalf would have resisted its allure in turn.

[Eldan]

Spoiler: undefined

Show

That and if Frodo hadn't used the power of the ring to order Gollum to kill himself by jumping into the volcano.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't. It laments having done it later. In every version of the Narn i chin Hùrin, the sword only speaks in the last moment of Tùrin's life when nobody is around to confirm it does so and it's not Tùrin having finally, finally, snapped and hallucinating it.

True, but, Melian the Maiar (prior to Beleg's death) suggests the sword is somewhat malevolent,


"There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."


and shortly after Beleg's death, someone who isn't Turin - Gwindor - comments on how the sword mourns Beleg - so the idea that its malevolence takes the form of vengefulness, isn't all that unusual in the Tolkien setting.

[Rater202]

I'm gonna say that this is probably the best of all outcomes.

I mean, people ask why Gandalf didn't just have the giant eagles fly Frodo into Mordor and drop the ring into the volcano but do you want a giant eagle to have the Ring? I imagine that a massive sapient predatory bird is easier to tempt than some Hobbits who just want to get the job done so they can go home.

[Eldan]

That, and they actually discuss something similar in the book. Why not give the ring to the most powerful elven Princes around, who are thousands of years old and basically unstoppable warriors and mages and just have them walk into Mordor? Sauron would feel them coming. Same for semi-divine superbirds.

[Rater202]

That, and they actually discuss something similar in the book. Why not give the ring to the most powerful elven Princes around, who are thousands of years old and basically unstoppable warriors and mages and just have them walk into Mordor? Sauron would feel them coming. Same for semi-divine superbirds.

And the stronger you are, the more it can give you, the more it can tempt you.

Hobbits, in addition to being humble, are physically week and have little in the way of magic. There's really not much the ring can off them.

Having anyone but a hobbit carry it would have led to failure. nd even then I've been led to believe that Frodo taking the Ring to Mordor was a fool's errand—he's basically being set up to either die or be corrupted on the off chance that he actually makes it and resists the ring's power long enough to drop it in the lava becuase that off chance is basically their best, if not only, hope of victory.

[pendell]

So I propose the ideal ringbearer.

Bill , the Pony.

Hear me out! Who says the creature carrying the ring has to be sapient? Hang it on a chain round Bill's neck. Load him down with enough baggage that his "bolt for freedom" is more like a slow waddle. We also have Shadowfax with Gandalf, who should be more than able to catch a slow pony. Let the Ring tempt Bill all it likes with, I dunno, dreams of grass? Playing stallion to a herd which tramples the world under its hooves? The Stallion who mounts the world? Whatever. Get him to the Crack of Doom, give Bill something to make him sleepy, then use a stick or something to lift the the ring and its chain off Bill's neck , then fling it in.

The best part is that Bill won't be prone to looking down into valleys and muttering "Shall I ever look down into that valley again , I wonder", nor will he put on the ring at inconvenient moments because the ring won't fit around his hoof. Or his nose. Or anything else.

If a pony's too much, get a dog. Or a hamster. Just don't make it a cat, because that would waken a Dark Lord even Sauron would fear

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

Issue there would be that Bill would probably refuse to move while carrying it. I don't think non-bird animals in LotRs can be corrupted as such, at least not without torture, selective breeding and sorcery, but they can still sense the taint of Morgoth and Sauron.

Not to mention the ring would still just convince someone else to take it from Bill. Would probably be easier than taking it from Frodo because no one needs to get hurt in the process. Boromir could literally have just picked it up and walked off with it with far less internal conflict. Being faced with the prospect of having to hurt Frodo to get the ring was probably a large part of why it took him as long as it did to break,