Rater Reads The Hobbit

[DavidSh]

Regarding the songs, there was, if my memory serves:

1. The Dwarves washing-up song "That's what Bilbo Baggins hates"
2. Over the misty mountains old -- we must away by break of day
3. Whatever the Elves were singing in Rivendell
4. The song the Goblins were singing in the tunnels
5. Fifteen birds in five fir trees

[pendell]

Regarding the songs, there was, if my memory serves:

1. The Dwarves washing-up song "That's what Bilbo Baggins hates"
2. Over the misty mountains old -- we must away by break of day
3. Whatever the Elves were singing in Rivendell
4. The song the Goblins were singing in the tunnels
5. Fifteen birds in five fir trees

The Rankin Bass version of the movie had renditions of all the songs which is why it is still my favorite film version of the book, even if it isn't a patch on the Jackson version as far as production values go.

So why don't they just ride the eagles to Erebor? I forget whether that's answered in this chapter or the next .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rater202]

The eagles don't want to go anywhere where humans might be—the eagles sometimes prey on domestic sheep, which means that the men tend to shoot at them with yew arrows.

The eagles, being good sports, admit that the men have a point... But the men also would not know that the eagles aren't there for that this time.

[factotum]

Regarding the Misty Mountains, it's supposed to be an absolutely enormous mountain range--this is more obvious in the map in LOTR. It pretty much splits most of the continent in half. I think it's basically the Middle-earth version of the Alps.

[Fyraltari]

Ah, my favourite scene in the book happens next chapter!

[Peelee]

Ah, my favourite scene in the book happens next chapter!

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The lightsaber fight with Harry Potter?

Because I thought that was a little on the boring side.

[Lord Torath]

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The lightsaber fight with Harry Potter?

Because I thought that was a little on the boring side.

No, but if I remember correctly, we get another song.

[Scarlet Knight]

This chapter gives D&D players their biggest problem: how did Gandalf go from being ready to commit suicide because he had no spells to use to the guy who killed a Balrog in LOTR ( which is also why we should focus only on this book as the others & the movies often do not match up well). Perhaps Gandalf is only first level and already used his Burning Pinecone?

I believe it was said that Gandalf was not a power wizard in the Hobbit but the children's story version of a wise man who simply assisted others.

So why don't they just ride the eagles to Erebor? I forget whether that's answered in this chapter or the next .

To quote a wonderful NSFW comic: "You don't want to be riding one when it gets hungry."

[Fyraltari]

This chapter gives D&D players their biggest problem: how did Gandalf go from being ready to commit suicide because he had no spells to use to the guy who killed a Balrog in LOTR

What spell did he use against Durin's Bane that would have helped here?

[GloatingSwine]

This chapter gives D&D players their biggest problem: how did Gandalf go from being ready to commit suicide because he had no spells to use to the guy who killed a Balrog in LOTR ( which is also why we should focus only on this book as the others & the movies often do not match up well). Perhaps Gandalf is only first level and already used his Burning Pinecone?

I believe it was said that Gandalf was not a power wizard in the Hobbit but the children's story version of a wise man who simply assisted others.

Gandalf is not a wizard in the D&D sense.

He's an angel. In the absolute literal messenger of god sense. He is bound and forbidden from taking direct action in all but the most globally dire of circumstances, his divine task is to guide others to stand for themselves.

[pendell]

What spell did he use against Durin's Bane that would have helped here?

Now that you mention it , the only spell we see Gandalf use in that entire sequence is 'Hold Portal', which Vaarsuvius in-comic described as 'so useless I shudder to wonder what I was thinking when I wrote it in my spellbook' or words to that effect.

Middle Earth Magic is not Vancian magic; it is raw exercise of will, given form in voice. Often in song.
The battle of Finrod and Sauron , by Clamavi De Profundis, is the best example of a magical duel in Middle-Earth I can think of.

For context, Felagund and company are disguised as orcs to infiltrate the Enemy's land, but they've been brought before Sauron (who is not THE Dark Lord in this story, but only the Lieutenant of an outlying tower in the border defenses) who is suspicious of this 'orc-band'. For one thing, they didn't report in as expected and required.

-- Sauron sings a spell to penetrate the magical disguise Felagund has created. He visualizes and evokes in his spell symbols and images to reinforce the working; piercing, treachery.
-- Felagund responds with a counterspell. He also evokes images to counter Sauron's song; strength of tower, secrets kept, snapping chains. If successful, Sauron will be forced to let them go free.
-- They continue to throw more and more of their will into the contest, the volume of their singing growing as their wills grow stronger.
-- Felagund decides to up his game by calling on the Powers of Valinor far away, evoking them and bringing all the power of the west into his song.
-- But this proves a mistake. Sauron recognizes the ploy and instantly responds with images that turns Felagund's ploy against him: He evokes the Kinslaying, the dark deeds the elves committed when they left Valinor to return to Middle Earth. He sings of the murder of the sea-elves and the theft of their ships, the banishment of a large portion of those elves to walk across the Grinding Ice on foot. The treachery of the elves in the beginning cuts the link with Valinor and slams that door shut in Felagund's face, bereft and alone before the might of Sauron. The things he had put most trust in turn to his undoing.
-- Felagund is overcome by despair, his will broken, and collapses before the throne. He is stripped of his disguise and is laid bare, prostrate, before Sauron.

That isn't the end of the tale, but that is the end of this magical duel. Others of his party will escape the dreadful Tower but Finrod Felagund will die here, killing a werewolf with his bare hands and teeth so his companions can escape.

At any rate, that is magic in middle earth. It isn't throwing fireballs. It isn't modern artillery with a fantasy coloration. It is the imposition of will and desire on others and on nature, best done through song. Morgoth's strife with the music of Illuvatar in the beginning is of the same sort. Middle Earth magic is both far more powerful than vancian magic, as it is unbounded by any rules save one's own imagination and one's own spiritual power, mana, but it is also far more subtle and long-term. The work of Sauron to corrupt the nine men into wraiths, for an example, was an enchantment which took centuries to complete. It's also less tactically useful than Vancian magic; I assume that's why pretty much everyone in middle earth enchants their swords rather than using magic directly as a weapon; magic works better as a buff to amplify mundane action than it does as a substitute for same. In Middle-Earth, the most effective way to fight an enemy is still to stick them with the pointy end of a sword, not throw fiery pine cones at them.

ETA: This implies that PJ missed an opportunity by not portraying the battle at the door between the balrog and Gandalf as a rap battle! Yes. We can have the trolls beatboxing and playing the percussion while the Balrog throws out his (her?) rhymes.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Wintermoot]

Gandolf is a D&D wizard who is following an "optimization" guide he got off of the intarwebs, so he casts half his slots in the morning on extended long term buffs and memorized the rest on Divination spells so he "always knows what's going to happen" but then doesn't understand why he doesn't have anything to cast during combats.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The Wizards = fireballs does seem to be a more modern conceit. A friend of mine put it like this:

Magus, mage and wizard all come from root words meaning wise.

Wise men don't throw fireballs. At least, they don't throw fireballs to win fights. By the time the fight starts the wise man already knows how he's going to win. The fight is probably happening when and where it is because he's set it up like that. The whole conflict is serving a bigger purpose, taking forward much larger long term goals.

Wise men don't need fireballs. Wise men can arrange for their enemies to fireball themselves.

...

Readers discovering the works of J.R.R. Tolkein, written less than a century ago, are often surprised that Gandalf and his bretherin spend remarkably little time tossing around energy effects. The Grey (and later White) Wanderer doesn't need them. His magic is subtler and more devastating.

Go back to much older literary sources, to the archmage's archmage, Merlin, and there are even less lightning bolts. The archetypical wizard wanders the Arthurian world setting up Perilous Seiges and mysterious groaning gravestones ...

Even in The Hobbit, Gandalf does very little actual magic.

Both here, and with the Balrog, Gandalf is in a position he hadn't planned for, and has to resort to off-the-cuff tactics. With the Wargs it is an attempt at intimidation, with the balrog it is destroying the bridge to stop the Balrog from crossing (and getting pulled down with it for his pains). He had no intention of fighting the Balrog if he could avoid it, for all that he did a good number on it after the fall into the chasm.

It's not the case for all wizarding stories - I've read at least one (A Matter of Magic) where the flashy spells almost took second place to the more subtle pieces of magic.

[PontificatusRex]

Yeah, a whole lot of magic in Tolkien fits better within the framework of "psychic powers" - will versus will, picking up other people's thoughts, etc. Gandalf seems to specialize in pyrokinesis - psychic control of fire.

But there is another type of magic - there's lots of references to spells. Spells that open doors, spells that hold doors, spells woven in to swords that make them more effective against a particularly hated enemy. These seem to involve actual words that have to be said in a particular order and other traditional types of magic. None of it is the kind of thing you could deploy in combat like a Vancian spell.

I'm currently reading 'Beren and Luthien', one of the First Age stories separated out from the Silmarillion, and there's a great segment where Luthien, who has learned magic from her demi-goddess mother, fashions some powerful magical items in a very classically ritualistic way - she needs a goblet of water in a silver cup poured exactly at midnight, wine in a golden cup poured at noon, things like that. Obviously we never see anything like that in the Hobbit and LOTR, but it's still there as part of the general background.

Circling back to why Gandalf would be outmatched by a bunch of goblins and wargs but not a Balrog, I think D&D terminology sums it up pretty well: He has the wrong kind of build. He can take on a single very powerful foe that no one else could face, but if he's surrounded on all sides by a ton of mooks he's going to get overwhelmed before too long. The Balrog had Damage Resistance that he could overcome, but he doesn't have it himself.

[pendell]

Random facebook observation re-posted for funsies:

"Remember that time Gandalf convinced the rest of the party to flee so he could take out the balrog himself and not share any of the XP ? Shows up at the next session with new robes and everything. What a jerk."

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[GloatingSwine]

Circling back to why Gandalf would be outmatched by a bunch of goblins and wargs but not a Balrog, I think D&D terminology sums it up pretty well: He has the wrong kind of build. He can take on a single very powerful foe that no one else could face, but if he's surrounded on all sides by a ton of mooks he's going to get overwhelmed before too long. The Balrog had Damage Resistance that he could overcome, but he doesn't have it himself.

On the other hand, the reason he couldn't do it here but could there is because the Balrog is a being like himself. A maiar, corrupted, but still a maiar.

He's not allowed to deploy his power against mortals, because his job is to guide and advise not solve their problems with divine intervention. He is allowed to remove those like himself from the board.

[Trafalgar]

Remember that the Hobbit takes place several decades before LOTR. So in the Hobbit, Gandalf is like level 3. By LOTR he is level 16. I read that in an interview Tolkien did with Dragon Magazine.

[hamishspence]

Tolkien died in 1973. TSR's first D&D magazine was The Strategic Review in 1975. Before that, the oldest iteration of D&D was in 1974. So I don't think the chronology works.

[Keltest]

On the other hand, the reason he couldn't do it here but could there is because the Balrog is a being like himself. A maiar, corrupted, but still a maiar.

He's not allowed to deploy his power against mortals, because his job is to guide and advise not solve their problems with divine intervention. He is allowed to remove those like himself from the board.

Excepting Sauron, who he was also not allowed to confront directly with his own power except in the most dire of circumstances (ie Sauron wins and Gandalf and the wizards are fleeing). I believe the idea was that a fight between the Wizards and Sauron would damage or destroy the world theyre trying to protect, and runs the risk of a wizard just setting themselves up to be the next super powered conqueror or the world.

[Wintermoot]

Tolkien died in 1973. TSR's first D&D magazine was The Strategic Review in 1975. Before that, the oldest iteration of D&D was in 1974. So I don't think the chronology works.

That's just what they want you to THINK man. Tolkein's head was frozen in the same vault as Walt Disney and electro-connected to a "it's a small world" marionette" so that they could use his genius to design the first D&D iteration.

Wake up Sheeple.

[PontificatusRex]

On the other hand, the reason he couldn't do it here but could there is because the Balrog is a being like himself. A maiar, corrupted, but still a maiar.

He's not allowed to deploy his power against mortals, because his job is to guide and advise not solve their problems with divine intervention. He is allowed to remove those like himself from the board.

I don't think it's that simple. We just saw him kill a bunch of goblins in Chapter 3, and I'm pretty sure setting the wargs on wire resulted in some of them dying.

[Fyraltari]

I just want to say that I find the need of D&D's fans to qualify everything from other fantasy work in that game's terms rather insufferable. Just like people saying that a dragon with only four limbs should be called a wyvern instead of a dragon.

On the other hand, the reason he couldn't do it here but could there is because the Balrog is a being like himself. A maiar, corrupted, but still a maiar.

He's not allowed to deploy his power against mortals, because his job is to guide and advise not solve their problems with divine intervention. He is allowed to remove those like himself from the board.

The singular of maiar is maia.

Excepting Sauron, who he was also not allowed to confront directly with his own power except in the most dire of circumstances (ie Sauron wins and Gandalf and the wizards are fleeing).

Except for the three times he directly confronted him in Dol Guldur?

[Kantaki]

I don't think it's that simple. We just saw him kill a bunch of goblins in Chapter 3, and I'm pretty sure setting the wargs on wire resulted in some of them dying.

I think most of Gandalf's pyrotechnics were him using one of the three rings of the elves.
He limited himself mostly to what mortals (including elves here) could theoretically accomplish unless up against something ina similar weight class.

[hamishspence]

I just want to say that I find the need of D&D's fans to qualify everything from other fantasy work in that game's terms rather insufferable. Just like people saying that a dragon with only four limbs should be called a wyvern instead of a dragon.

I thought that was more "heraldry fans" than "D&D fans"?

Except for the three times he directly confronted him in Dol Guldur?

Wasn't that movies-only - with novel Gandalf finding out that the Necromancer was Sauron, but never actually confronting him - sneaking in and sneaking out?

It's left unclear in the Hobbit and in the tie-in material, whether the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur (forcing Sauron to flee) involved any actual fighting on Sauron's part.

[Fyraltari]

I thought that was more "heraldry fans" than "D&D fans"?

Whoever they are, they are annoying.

Wasn't that movies-only - with novel Gandalf finding out that the Necromancer was Sauron, but never actually confronting him - sneaking in and sneaking out?

Spoiler: Spoilering for Rater even though this isn't strictly speaking in the Hobbit.

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It's unclear. Gandalf went into Dol Guldur for the first time in 2063 T.A. and Sauron fled before him, setting off the Watchful Peace which lasted until the Necromancer came back to DG in 2460, leading to the creation of the White Council in 2463. In 2850 Gandalf comes back into Dol Guldur but is captured by Sauron (Gandalf formerly identify him at this point) and is imprisoned alongside Thrain, son of Thror. Then in 2941, this book happens and the White Council, Gandalf included march into Dol Guldur with Sauron fleeing once more. How much fighting happened each time is unclear, but come on.

[hamishspence]

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In 2850 Gandalf comes back into Dol Guldur but is captured by Sauron (Gandalf formerly identify him at this point) and is imprisoned alongside Thrain, son of Thror.

I thought he snuck in.

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"Your grandfather," said the wizard slowly and grimly, "gave the map to his son for safety before he went to the mines of Moria. Your father went away to try his luck with the map after your grandfather was killed; and lots of adventures of a most unpleasant sort he had, but he never got near the Mountain. How he got there I don't know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer."

"Whatever were you doing there?" asked Thorin with a shudder, and all the dwarves shivered.

"Never you mind. I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped. I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and the key."

Now the Shadow grew ever greater, and the hearts of Elrond and Mithrandir darkened. Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorcerer, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:

‘True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.’

"Escaped" in this case, doesn't necessarily mean Sauron captured him and threw him in a cell - it can allow for the process of sneaking in and out.

A point is made of how Gandalf was sneaking around in disguise:

'I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.'

'I remembered a dangerous journey of mine, ninety-one years before, when I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits. I had no idea who he was. He had a map that had belonged to Durin's folk in Moria and a key that seemed to go with it, though he was too far gone to explain it. And he said that he had possessed a great Ring.'

[pendell]

I have a mental image of Gandalf sneaking around Dol Guldor in a cardboard box. I'm sure everyone here gets the reference

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

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Gandalf explains the limitations of his fire abilites in Caradhras, he needs fuel to do it, he can't burn snow or air, he needs something to set alight.

...which, thinking about it, is a very logical and clever limitation which doesn't happen in most fireball spells.

[Manga Shoggoth]

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Gandalf explains the limitations of his fire abilites in Caradhras, he needs fuel to do it, he can't burn snow or air, he needs something to set alight.

...which, thinking about it, is a very logical and clever limitation which doesn't happen in most fireball spells.

Ah yes, fireball. Material components: Piece of bat guano and sulphur - a rather explosive mix...

[pendell]

Ah yes, fireball. Material components: Piece of bat guano and sulphur - a rather explosive mix...

Given they just spent three days passing through the tunnels under the misty mountains they should have been able to pack off enough bat guano to open a business, were they so inclined. I was just listening to 'Riddles of the Dark' myself, and that was part of the flavor text -- bats flew by Bilbo's head all the time. At first it startled him, but eventually it happened so often he got used to it.

And, of course , where you find bats...

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.