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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
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    Gandalf explains the limitations of his fire abilites in Caradhras, he needs fuel to do it, he can't burn snow or air, he needs something to set alight.

    ...which, thinking about it, is a very logical and clever limitation which doesn't happen in most fireball spells.

    That's because it isn't a fireball spell at all! He just sets fire to whatever he touches with his staff!

    This is exactly the kind of things I was talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's because it isn't a fireball spell at all! He just sets fire to whatever he touches with his staff!
    Though I think one could make a pretty good argument that Gandalf cast something like Lightning Bolt in Chapter 3 when the goblins first attack:


    Quote Originally Posted by Tolkien

    there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead
    This actually contradicts my earlier point about spells not being something magical folks whip out in the middle of combat, though it only happens once in all the stories as far as I recall. When being chased by goblins later he doesn't use it again, it's just he and Thorin fighting off the goblins with the magic swords. If one wants to justify it, I can imagine it being thought of like a semi-magical trick in the same league as his fireworks, some literal gunpowder juiced up by his innate magic, and once it's gone, it's gone until he spends some time making more.
    Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    Though I think one could make a pretty good argument that Gandalf cast something like Lightning Bolt in Chapter 3 when the goblins first attack:




    This actually contradicts my earlier point about spells not being something magical folks whip out in the middle of combat, though it only happens once in all the stories as far as I recall. When being chased by goblins later he doesn't use it again, it's just he and Thorin fighting off the goblins with the magic swords. If one wants to justify it, I can imagine it being thought of like a semi-magical trick in the same league as his fireworks, some literal gunpowder juiced up by his innate magic, and once it's gone, it's gone until he spends some time making more.
    Yeah it might have been a little bomb, like an artisanal grenade. Just like Saruman's own "wizardry" at Helm's Deep.
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    Yeah, probably Gandalf (or Narya) has the spell "Affect Normal Fires". He can make a fire brighter or bigger or keep it burning or shape it. He also seems to have the ability to create light..he can illuminate his staff, and shine a beam that drives away Nazgul (or their fell beasts?).

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    There is also whatever Gandalf and the Nazgul he fought did on Weathertop that created flashes "like lightning that rises from the hilltops" which Strider and Frodo observed from afar.

    Also, regarding the "magic is musical" theory: Sorry, but while some magic is portrayed musically, other magic is not. Gandalf tries opening the Doors of During by shouting imperatives at them ("Edro! Edro!" Open! Open!), for example, and neither "Naur an edraith ammen!" ("Fire for the saving of us!") nor "Naur dan i ngaurhoth!" ("Fire against the wolf-host!") strike me as particularly musical lines, though perhaps for others that is different.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-08-12 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    There is also whatever Gandalf and the Nazgul he fought did on Weathertop that created flashes "like lightning that rises from the hilltops" which Strider and Frodo observed from afar.
    That may have been the Ring of Power he had. It was, IIRC, Narya the ring of fire.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That may have been the Ring of Power he had. It was, IIRC, Narya the ring of fire.
    We were also told that the Three were not created as weapons of war but rather to preserve and heal, which makes offensive magic having Narya as its source somewhat problematic. Also, if I recall correctly the only in-universe description we have of the powers of the Ring of Fire, at least that I can recall, suggest that the "fires" for which the ring is named are figurative, more a flame with which to inspire your allies than a torch with which to burn your enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    We were also told that the Three were not created as weapons of war but rather to preserve and heal, which makes offensive magic having Narya as its source somewhat problematic. Also, if I recall correctly the only in-universe description we have of the powers of the Ring of Fire, at least that I can recall, suggest that the "fires" for which the ring is named are figurative, more a flame with which to inspire your allies than a torch with which to burn your enemies.
    Eh. Elrond used his ring to crush the Nazgul beneath water at the ford of Bruinen. The difference between a sword wielded in self defense and a sword wielded to conquer is the wielder.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Eh. Elrond used his ring to crush the Nazgul beneath water at the ford of Bruinen.
    As far as I am aware, that is just speculation; there is no direct evidence one way or the other as to whether Elrond used the power of the ring to create the flood. Moreover, Elrond is an Elf-lord descended from some of the great figures of the First Age; it is far from implausible that he could have considerable magical abilities of his own even without his ring, and direct weaponization of his ring's power runs contrary to his later claim that the Three are not weapons of war but instead preserve and heal.

    Furthermore, since you seem to wish to ascribe to the rings literal power over the elements for which they are named, might I point out that Elrond's ring is the Ring of Air, and that Galadriel, who holds the Ring of Water, does not drown the orcs who trespass on her realm when they cross a sacred stream, despite seemingly being fairly well aware of what occurred just within her realm's borders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    As far as I am aware, that is just speculation; there is no direct evidence one way or the other as to whether Elrond used the power of the ring to create the flood. Moreover, Elrond is an Elf-lord descended from some of the great figures of the First Age; it is far from implausible that he could have considerable magical abilities of his own even without his ring, and direct weaponization of his ring's power runs contrary to his later claim that the Three are not weapons of war but instead preserve and heal.

    Furthermore, since you seem to wish to ascribe to the rings literal power over the elements for which they are named, might I point out that Elrond's ring is the Ring of Air, and that Galadriel, who holds the Ring of Water, does not drown the orcs who trespass on her realm when they cross a sacred stream, despite seemingly being fairly well aware of what occurred just within her realm's borders?
    Elrond's ring is a significant, if not the only, source of the magical protection that keeps Rivendell safe given the otherwise rather hostile country it is surrounded by. While he definitionally has his own powers as well, in order to be able to use a Ring of Power to any major effect at all, raising the torrential waters entirely on his own would be, by far, the mightiest act of overt... i guess spell casting that appear in any of the books. If the ring wasnt involved in that act, one wonders what, exactly, the point of it even is.

    As for the specific elements, i make no such claim. We know Gandalf has the ring of fire because were told as much. The fact that the battle on Weathertop was visible as lightning-like bolts is almost certainly due to Gandalf's fighting style, not just a function of the ring.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's because it isn't a fireball spell at all! He just sets fire to whatever he touches with his staff!

    This is exactly the kind of things I was talking about.
    It's the Druid spell fire seeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I thought he snuck in.
    Yes, everything we're told in the text of the books suggests that Gandalf sneaked in and out of Dol Guldur. Spoilers for later in the book:

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    It took the entire White Council to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and even then, I don't think they would have succeeded if he wasn't already ready to return to Mordor and take up his proper abode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Elrond's ring is a significant, if not the only, source of the magical protection that keeps Rivendell safe given the otherwise rather hostile country it is surrounded by. While he definitionally has his own powers as well, in order to be able to use a Ring of Power to any major effect at all, raising the torrential waters entirely on his own would be, by far, the mightiest act of overt... i guess spell casting that appear in any of the books. If the ring wasnt involved in that act, one wonders what, exactly, the point of it even is.

    As for the specific elements, i make no such claim. We know Gandalf has the ring of fire because were told as much. The fact that the battle on Weathertop was visible as lightning-like bolts is almost certainly due to Gandalf's fighting style, not just a function of the ring.
    I'm trying to remember the exact quote, but the point of the elven rings is not in battle. In fact, each of the rings is unique to the people who made it, and appeal to their specific strengths.

    -- The nine rings are for the gaining of power. Each of the men who took a ring was or became a great king and warlord, ruling great realms in the earth. The Witch-king himself held the realm of Angmar for a time. I suspect this is how Sauron managed to gain so many human subjects in the east and south -- they were under the rule of immortal god-kings, or so they would imagine the Nazgul.

    -- The seven rings are for the acquisition of wealth. Each of the seven great dwarven hordes of old, it is suggested, had a golden ring as its foundation. These are what dwarves love and that is what they receive -- yet, perverted by Sauron, it turns to their undoing. For the rings awaken a great lust and greed in their hearts, which impels them to dig too deeply and in the wrong place, bringing ruin and destruction upon themselves, as at Khazad-Dum.

    -- The power of the Elven rings is to preserve unchanged. And so they do. Rivendell and Lothlorien are places out of time, lands of a vanished age. Galadriel flat out tells us in the Fellowship of the Ring that if the One Ring is destroyed Lorien will disappear, implying that it is maintained with the power of the ring and, when the elvish ring stops working, time will catch up with the forest of the Dreamflower and it will become as everywhere else in Middle-earth. The Elves will have no special place there, and nothing will be left to them in Middle-Earth save to take ship to the west.

    As Lorien is, so is Rivendell.

    Gandalf's ring, which originally belonged to Cirdan , the shipwright, who gave it to Gandalf. As it has the power of fire, Gandalf uses it to kindle and inspire courage in the hearts of all the free people. I suspect he uses it when conversing with Theoden when freeing him from Wormtongue's grasp.

    All of this is very useful, very powerful... but it's not battle-magic. That is because Tolkien's magic has its roots in myth, not in wargaming.

    Elrond's calling forth of the flood is probably not with the aid of the Ring. It is because he is Master of that land, and not just of the people who live on it. When he commands, the land and the waters and the trees obey, just as the trees in the Old Forest obey the Old Willow Man.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-08-13 at 08:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I'm trying to remember the exact quote, but the point of the elven rings is not in battle. In fact, each of the rings is unique to the people who made it, and appeal to their specific strengths.

    -- The nine rings are for the gaining of power.
    [...]
    -- The seven rings are for the acquisition of wealth.
    [...]
    -- The power of the Elven rings is to preserve unchanged.
    This does not track. The Nine, the Seven and the Three were all made by and for elves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This does not track. The Nine, the Seven and the Three were all made by and for elves.
    Sauron helped the elves make the Nine and the Seven though - making them just a little different from the Three.

    It's true though that that it is likely that the Nine and the Seven had identical "stats" (metaphorically speaking) - and that had Sauron given the Nine to Dwarves and the Seven to Men, exactly the same effects would be observed as were observed in the canon timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    -- The nine rings are for the gaining of power. Each of the men who took a ring was or became a great king and warlord, ruling great realms in the earth. The Witch-king himself held the realm of Angmar for a time.
    The realm of Angmar did not arise, until long after the Nazgul became Nazgul - they all turned from Men to Wraiths mid-way through the Second Age, but Angmar was created in order to destroy the kingdom of Arnor which had been established by Isildur, and Angmar did not appear till mid-way through the Third Age.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-08-13 at 08:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post


    The realm of Angmar did not arise, until long after the Nazgul became Nazgul - they all turned from Men to Wraiths mid-way through the Second Age, but Angmar was created in order to destroy the kingdom of Arnor which had been established by Isildur, and Angmar did not appear till mid-way through the Third Age.
    True , but it's still written that the nine rings were given out to those who became 'great kings, sorcerers'. A 'sorcerer' in this is one who commands spirits, allowing them knowledge of things unseen. From this I infer that the kingdoms ruled by the ringwraiths becamse the kingdoms allied with Sauron in the Third Age, but that is not a great leap.

    Found the quote :

    Quote Originally Posted by Silmarillion
    Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgűl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Úlairi, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. — The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", 346
    You may be right there may be no mechanical difference between the Nine and the Seven; It may be the distinction is that Sauron gave nine to humans, more than to anyone else, because they were most apt to his hand and easiest to sway.

    UPDATE: The same essay, I keep quoting, again gives details.
    But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them.

    As towards the Three, I cannot find the book-quote, so I'll settle for this wiki quote .

    Tolkien noted in his letters that the primary power of the Three was to "the prevention and slowing of decay", which appealed to the Elves in their pursuit of preserving what they loved in Middle-earth.[6][T 4] As changeless beings in a changing world, the Elves who remained in Middle-earth relied on the Three to delay the inevitable rise of the Dominion of Men.[6][T 5][T 6] Tolkien explained that the Elves can only be immortal as long as the world endures, leading them to be concerned to burdens of deathlessness in time and change. Wanting the bliss and perfect memory of Valinor, and yet to remain in Middle-earth with their prestige as the fairest, as opposed to being at the bottom of the hierarchy in the Undying Lands, they became obsessed with "fading".[T 7]
    EDIT: Found the quote, again in "The Rings of Power and the Third Age", again in the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
    The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.
    We also learn in Fellowship of the Ring that it was partly to find the dwarf-ring that the dwarves recolonized Moria. But they did not find it. Thror had not taken it into Moria with him when he perished there. He had instead given it to his son Thrain, and Thrain was captured by the Enemy, where the ring was taken from him with great torment.


    Tolkien makes it plain both in his letters and his other works , again, that the Elvish rings are different in kind from the other rings and their powers are for the preservation of beauty unchanged, not for war-making. It may be that the effect of the rings of power given to dwarves and men is different because dwarves and humans are different, and not a difference in the rings themselves. But the difference is plain to see.

    Spoiler: The Hobbit, end
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    Thorin is a proto-fallen dwarf who would be slave to a ring, so consumed with greed that he is willing to make war on all the world and all his neighbors to keep hold of it.


    Boromir would have made a fine nazgul -- caught up in visions of power and glory, leading armies to battle. Vulnerable to the temptation. If he had lived in the second age, I have no doubt he or someone like him would have been given a ring, used it to gain great power and glory, then eventually fade into the shadows as the one who would master all is himself mastered by the ring he trusts in; that which he trusts most turning to his undoing, as is the way of Sauron, the master of treachery.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-08-13 at 09:14 AM.
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    I think it's safe to say that had Sauron disappeared after the 9 and 7 were created but before the 1 was, the elves would have used the 16 for preservation - that was their intended purpose too, before Sauron interfered.

    Regarding the Nazgul - I don't know that they were all kings before receiving the rings - but certainly some were, and it's likely that they were all sorcerers between taking the rings (using them for sorcery) and succumbing to the effects of the rings.

    Perhaps some were kings, and some were just "great warriors" before getting their rings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Spoiler: the end of the book
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    Thorin is a proto-fallen dwarf who would be slave to a ring, so consumed with greed that he is willing to make war on all the world and all his neighbors to keep hold of it.
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    Now that's rather unfair, he was plenty willing to give gold to Bard who had a legitimate claim to some of it both because he killed the dragon and because of the damage down to Lake-Town. What he didn't want to was to give gold to Thranduil who had thrown him into jail and who he owed nothing to. Can he really be blamed for that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
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    Now that's rather unfair, he was plenty willing to give gold to Bard who had a legitimate claim to some of it both because he killed the dragon and because of the damage down to Lake-Town. What he didn't want to was to give gold to Thranduil who had thrown him into jail and who he owed nothing to. Can he really be blamed for that?
    Spoiler: End of the Hobbit
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    You're right; I shouldn't have put that in open comments. I'll spoiler it in my post above.

    Thorin is falling more and more under the spell of greed as he goes on. Towards the end he is preparing to renege on his agreement to relinquish the arkenstone in exchange for a share of the treasure, fight the nearby humans and elves in order to keep it all to himself. That is why he is repentent at the end , wishing he had 'valued food and cheer more than hoarded gold'. He recognizes that his greed has brought about pain and suffering. If he had continued on this course, it would have been to his undoing.

    ETA: some quotes
    "So much for joy, Thorin Oakenshield. You may go back to your halls in safety; all the treasure is yours -- for the moment. But many are gathering hither beside the birds. The news of the death of the guardian has already gone far and wide, and the legend of the wealth of Thror has not lost in the telling during many years; many are eager for a share of the spoil. Already a host of the elves is on the way, and carrion birds are with them hoping for battle and slaughter. By the lake, men murmur that their sorrows are due to the dwarves; for they are homeless and many have died, and Smaug has destroyed their town. They too think to find amends from your treasure, whether you are alive or dead.



    "Your own wisdom must decide your course, but thirteen is small remnant of the great folk of Durin that once dwelt here, and now are scattered far. If you will listen to my counsel, you will not trust the Master of the Lake-men, but rather him that shot the dragon with his bow. Bard is he, of the race of Dale, of the line of Girion; he is a grim man but true. We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation; but it may cost you dear in gold. I have spoken."



    Then Thorin burst forth in anger: "Our thanks, Roäc Carc's son. You and your people shall not be forgotten. But none of our gold shall thieves take or the violent carry off while we are alive. If you would earn our thanks still more, bring us news of any that draw near. Also I would beg of you, if any of you are still young and strong of wing, that you would send messengers to our kin in the mountains of the North, both west from here and east, and tell them of our plight. But go specially to my cousin Dain in the Iron Hills, for he has many people well-armed, and dwells nearest to this place. Bid him hasten!"



    "I will not say if this counsel be good or bad," croaked Roäc; "but I will do what can be done." Then off he slowly flew.
    As others have observed, when a 153 old raven says 'I will not say if this counsel be good or bad' that's a very passive-aggressive way of saying 'this is a really, really stupid idea'. Rather than dealing honorably with Bard for an honorable peace he is summoning an army for war. Which, even if won, would serve only to put the mountain permanently under siege if the humans who live at its feet won't trade with them.

    And this also
    Bilbo thought that Thorin would at once admit what justice was in them. He did not, of course, expect that anyone would remember that it was he who discovered all by himself the dragon's weak spot; and that was just as well, for no one ever did. But also he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy on him. Though he had hunted chiefly for the Arkenstone, yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.
    As the chapters go further and further on Thorin falls deeper under the influence of the dragon-sickness that lingers on the horde .. and I think this dragon-sickness is a pretty good parallel for the greed induced by the corrupt rings. He eventually escapes from it, but it is not hard to imagine the fate of those ring-bearing dwarves who were not so fortunate.

    Though we can perhaps discuss this in more detail at its proper time.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-08-13 at 09:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Spoiler: End of the Hobbit
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    You're right; I shouldn't have put that in open comments. I'll spoiler it in my post above.

    Thorin is falling more and more under the spell of greed as he goes on. Towards the end he is preparing to renege on his agreement to relinquish the arkenstone in exchange for a share of the treasure, fight the nearby humans and elves in order to keep it all to himself. That is why he is repentent at the end , wishing he had 'valued food and cheer more than hoarded gold'. He recognizes that his greed has brought about pain and suffering. If he had continued on this course, it would have been to his undoing.

    ETA: some quotes


    As others have observed, when a 153 old raven says 'I will not say if this counsel be good or bad' that's a very passive-aggressive way of saying 'this is a really, really stupid idea'. Rather than dealing honorably with Bard for an honorable peace he is summoning an army for war. Which, even if won, would serve only to put the mountain permanently under siege if the humans who live at its feet won't trade with them.

    And this also


    As the chapters go further and further on Thorin falls deeper under the influence of the dragon-sickness that lingers on the horde .. and I think this dragon-sickness is a pretty good parallel for the greed induced by the corrupt rings. He eventually escapes from it, but it is not hard to imagine the fate of those ring-bearing dwarves who were not so fortunate.

    Though we can perhaps discuss this in more detail at its proper time.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    I think youre overstating things in the books (compared to the movies). Thorin is deeply, personally offended that the elves, who imprisoned him and interrogated him, are now marching an army to claim the spoils of a quest that they did nothing to assist in and actively hampered in the resolution of. Thats it. He's also not a huge fan of Bard asking for treasure at the head of his own army, but explicitly says that if Bard backs off a little bit and gets rid of the elves he's willing to talk. There's certainly a degree of greed involved, but Thorin's position is entirely reasonable at the outset.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    I always thought the idea was that the Rings, whichever one they are, gave power to the wielder according to their stature and desires. So the main effect of the One Ring on Bilbo, a hobbit who is naturally a bit timid and prone to wanting to hide, is to turn him invisible. I'm absolutely darned certain that it didn't do that for Sauron!

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I always thought the idea was that the Rings, whichever one they are, gave power to the wielder according to their stature and desires. So the main effect of the One Ring on Bilbo, a hobbit who is naturally a bit timid and prone to wanting to hide, is to turn him invisible. I'm absolutely darned certain that it didn't do that for Sauron!
    The One Ring turned the hobbits invisible because it pushed them slightly into the realm of the spirits. The Ringwraiths, being wraiths, live there full time, but certain other beings, like (IIRC) Glorfindel the elf, and almost certainly the Maiar also have a presence there already. The Ringwraiths also were actually invisible under their cloaks as well, so even if youre invisible, that doesnt mean everything about you is invisible.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The One Ring turned the hobbits invisible because it pushed them slightly into the realm of the spirits. The Ringwraiths, being wraiths, live there full time, but certain other beings, like (IIRC) Glorfindel the elf, and almost certainly the Maiar also have a presence there already. The Ringwraiths also were actually invisible under their cloaks as well, so even if youre invisible, that doesnt mean everything about you is invisible.
    Tom Bombadil is a bit of an odd one as well. He could see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and when Tom put the Ring on he did not disappear. Which would imply that he has an existence in both worlds at once.

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    Brian P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The One Ring turned the hobbits invisible because it pushed them slightly into the realm of the spirits. The Ringwraiths, being wraiths, live there full time, but certain other beings, like (IIRC) Glorfindel the elf, and almost certainly the Maiar also have a presence there already. The Ringwraiths also were actually invisible under their cloaks as well, so even if youre invisible, that doesnt mean everything about you is invisible.
    Interestingly, in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields (Unfinished Tales) when Isildur puts on the Ring, the jewel he wears on a circlet round his head (the Elendilmir) remains visible until he puts his hood up.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I always thought the idea was that the Rings, whichever one they are, gave power to the wielder according to their stature and desires. So the main effect of the One Ring on Bilbo, a hobbit who is naturally a bit timid and prone to wanting to hide, is to turn him invisible. I'm absolutely darned certain that it didn't do that for Sauron!
    There's a strong implication in LOTR that any mortal can use a Great Ring to turn invisible:


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    'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later — later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last — sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Interestingly, in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields (Unfinished Tales) when Isildur puts on the Ring, the jewel he wears on a circlet round his head (the Elendilmir) remains visible until he puts his hood up.



    There's a strong implication in LOTR that any mortal can use a Great Ring to turn invisible
    I remember wayyyy back when there was a question sent to Dragon Magazine's "Sage Advice" column, as to whether one would turn invisible permanently if they wore a ring of invisibility long enough, clearly inspired by Tolkien's description of the effects of using a Great Ring too much. The answer was "No, that would make a PC much too powerful", clearly ignoring the existential implications.

    One little interesting implication about ring-lore in Tolkien's work that I've rarely seen discussed is the implication that a whole bunch of "lesser" rings were made. Before the Great Rings for each race were made, there were a bunch of lesser rings that were magical but really no big deal, and it's assumed at first that Bilbo found one of those. Sure you turn invisible, nifty, the elven-smiths made a bunch of those that got scattered around and were the basis of much future folklore, but the ONE RING is wayyyyy different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Tom Bombadil is a bit of an odd one as well. He could see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and when Tom put the Ring on he did not disappear. Which would imply that he has an existence in both worlds at once.

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    Brian P.
    He didn't disappear when wearing the Ring because, as stated at the Council of Elrond, it has no power over him. So he doesn't need to exist in both realms for that to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I always thought the idea was that the Rings, whichever one they are, gave power to the wielder according to their stature and desires. So the main effect of the One Ring on Bilbo, a hobbit who is naturally a bit timid and prone to wanting to hide, is to turn him invisible. I'm absolutely darned certain that it didn't do that for Sauron!
    No. Sauron is the master of the Ring, for absolutely anyone else it ends up the other way around. The Ring would make Sauron invisible if that's what he wanted, if he didn't it wouldn't.

    But mostly what it does is enforce and make real the will of the user, allowing them to dominate others by the force of their will. Again, for everyone but Saruon that would eventually be twisted to produce tyranny (for Sauron, of course, no twisting would be required).

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    it has no power over him.
    Everyone asks why not take the Eagles, but "why not have Tom hold the Ring" seems like a more valid question.

    ...Unless there's a good reason for that. I know nothing about the character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Everyone asks why not take the Eagles, but "why not have Tom hold the Ring" seems like a more valid question.

    ...Unless there's a good reason for that. I know nothing about the character.
    Essentially because Tom doesn't care about the ring enough to want to travel to Mordor and destroy it, nor to keep it hidden in his forest. He genuinely doesn't understand why anyone else cares about it, and Gandalf says he would probably lose it or throw it away. Sauron probably couldn't have taken the ring from him by force, but Tom wouldn't be much fussed if an orc came in and asked for it politely.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Everyone asks why not take the Eagles, but "why not have Tom hold the Ring" seems like a more valid question.

    ...Unless there's a good reason for that. I know nothing about the character.
    Gandalf covers this in the council of Elrond. It's because it has no power over him. He wouldn't take it seriously. He'd forget it, or throw it away. And even if he didn't all that would mean is that Sauron would conquer everything else, and in the end even Tom Bombadil couldn't resist.

    Bombadil is a nature spirit, basically. He is an embodiment of the natural world, and whilst that would resist Sauron as long as it could it would be dominated in the end.

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