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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    What old Tom is really isn't clear. Well what he is supposed to be in-universe actually. Out of universe he's a cameo of the protagonist of a bunch of poems Tolkien had composed even before he got to the Middle-Earth stuff (hence why he's Eldest) and/or a doll Tolkien's children had.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Everyone asks why not take the Eagles, but "why not have Tom hold the Ring" seems like a more valid question.

    ...Unless there's a good reason for that. I know nothing about the character.
    As GloatingSwine says, the reason it's not a question asked often is because Tolkien both asked and answered in the books, directly. I forget which character suggested it but Gandalf shot that down in a hurry. Tom would lose the ring and it would find its way to something nasty.

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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Also they stress the need to destroy the Ring and not pass the bucket to the next generation.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    As GloatingSwine says, the reason it's not a question asked often is because Tolkien both asked and answered in the books, directly. I forget which character suggested it but Gandalf shot that down in a hurry. Tom would lose the ring and it would find its way to something nasty.
    Erestor, one of Elrond's councillors, suggested handing it over to Bombadil, Gandalf shoots it down on "unsafe guardian" grounds, Glorfindel brings up the "Sauron will conquer him too - just last" possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also they stress the need to destroy the Ring and not pass the bucket to the next generation.
    Yup.

    Glorfindel brings up two possibilities - send it across the sea, or destroy it - Elrond shoots down the "send it across the sea" possibility - the residents simply won't receive it - it's a Middle Earth problem.

    Glorfindel suggests sinking the ring into the sea, to make it inaccessible - Gandalf shoots that down too - making it clear that they should be thinking of solving the problem permanently. And another of Elrond's councillors, Galdor, points out that Mordor's forces will probably be cutting them off from the sea anyway.

    Finally Elrond proposes throwing it into Mount Doom.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-08-14 at 02:20 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Glorfindel brings up two possibilities - send it across the sea, or destroy it - Elrond shoots down the "send it across the sea" possibility - the residents simply won't receive it - it's a Middle Earth problem.
    This is also the reason the Eagles aren't involved. They're not just smart birbs, they're messengers of the Valar who only intervene when they choose to.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    This is also the reason the Eagles aren't involved. They're not just smart birbs, they're messengers of the Valar who only intervene when they choose to.
    Also, they don't have a phone.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    This is also the reason the Eagles aren't involved. They're not just smart birbs, they're messengers of the Valar who only intervene when they choose to.
    I decided to check up on the "Eagles are not a taxi service" answer (to see if Tolkein ever said it), and came across this little gem.

    Essentially, the article says:
    • That's not what the story is about - the story is heavily about the development of the Hobbits, with a generous side order of the rest of the companions.
    • As commonly noted, they 'ain't a taxi service. (When the eagles swoop in to rescue Sam and Frodo from Mt Doom it is heavily implied that Gandalf is calling in a favour).
    • The eagles are their own enitites, and perhaps trusting the ring to them would be a bad idea as they are very proud, and would be no more immune to the ring's influence than anyone else.
    • The whole point of the operation was stealth. A giant eagle making a bee-line to Mt Doom would be picked up by The Eye very easily.


    Another post in the search noted that the eagles were also worried by farmers with bows, and also that the Nazgul could fly (or at least, had winged steeds available), so could easily deal with the eagles. Oh, and I had an interesting detour into MST3K...
    Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2021-08-14 at 04:14 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Rater Reads The Hobbit

    When do we discover the eagles aren't real?
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    But... but then ... who did Hotel California and Journey of the Sorcerer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    But... but then ... who did Hotel California and Journey of the Sorcerer?
    The friends we made on the way to the Lonely Mountain, obviously.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Gandalf covers this in the council of Elrond. It's because it has no power over him. He wouldn't take it seriously. He'd forget it, or throw it away. And even if he didn't all that would mean is that Sauron would conquer everything else, and in the end even Tom Bombadil couldn't resist.

    Bombadil is a nature spirit, basically. He is an embodiment of the natural world, and whilst that would resist Sauron as long as it could it would be dominated in the end.
    IIRC there's some of Tolkien's writings where he refers to Bombadil as representing pacifism. That is, it's the other way around - he's immune to the Ring because he's so content with life and detached from the affairs of the great powers that the Ring has nothing to offer him. The same reason the hobbits are resistant to it, just taken to a greater extreme.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2021-08-15 at 05:20 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    IIRC there's some of Tolkien's writings where he refers to Bombadil as representing pacifism. That is, it's the other way around - he's immune to the Ring because he's so content with life and detached from the affairs of the great powers that the Ring has nothing to offer him. The same reason the hobbits are resistant to it, just taken to a greater extreme.
    That... doesn't contradict what GloatingSwine said?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-08-15 at 05:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, they don't have a phone.
    ???

    Now I demand a short story where the protagonist accesses Uber on her phone, sees "EagleDriver" as one of the options and, when selected, a giant eagle comes out of the sky , plucks her up and takes her to her destination. You'd better believe the tip would be generous

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    Last edited by pendell; 2021-08-20 at 01:31 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, they don't have a phone.
    ???
    Possibly because of the movies, people tend to think Gandalf can easily contact the Eagles. It's never shown that he can do that. The one time he wants to ask the Eagles something he asks Radagast to pass the message along and that's not an option during the Council of Elrond since Radagast has for all intents and purposes fallenn off the face of Arda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Possibly because of the movies, people tend to think Gandalf can easily contact the Eagles. It's never shown that he can do that. The one time he wants to ask the Eagles something he asks Radagast to pass the message along and that's not an option during the Council of Elrond since Radagast has for all intents and purposes fallenn off the face of Arda.
    How does he get off the top of Isengard in the book? Or is he even stranded there at all?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-20 at 03:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How does he get off the top of Isengard in the book? Or is he even stranded there at all?
    Before he went to Isengard, Gandalf had encountered Radagast and asked him to send any news he may uncover to Orthanc. Radagast later learned some news he felt was important, and chose one of the eagles to take the message to Isenguard, and the eagle rescues Gandalf when he arrives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Before he went to Isengard, Gandalf had encountered Radagast and asked him to send any news he may uncover to Orthanc. Radagast later learned some news he felt was important, and chose one of the eagles to take the message to Isenguard, and the eagle rescues Gandalf when he arrives.
    So what you're saying is that we're adventuring with the wrong wizard. It's Radagast who has the Eagles on his speed dial, so he's the wizard we should be using to , say, hop over the misty mountains and avoid the balrog encounter altogether.

    Tongue-in-cheek,

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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Before he went to Isengard, Gandalf had encountered Radagast and asked him to send any news he may uncover to Orthanc. Radagast later learned some news he felt was important, and chose one of the eagles to take the message to Isenguard, and the eagle rescues Gandalf when he arrives.
    To be more exact he told Radagast to tell the birds (not just the Eagles) to send any news to Orthanc. The Eagles had something to report so Gwaihir went there, saw Gandalf and went "That ain't right."

    This is also (probably) why Saruman has birds spying for him later in the book.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-08-20 at 04:13 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Yeah, but if you’re not a goat or bird he has no use for you.

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    Next Chapter: Queer Lodgings.

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    Bilbo wakes up and forgets that he's on an adventure and is thus grumpy for the rest of the morning.

    And then they are off on the back of the eagles.

    Our party is set down near a massive rock the size of a hill, and we get a traditional farewell among eagles.

    And call forward to the Battle of Five Armies and its aftermath.

    Gandalf announces that he'd not intended to travel this far with them and that he has his own business to attend to and he will be departing once the current situation is over.

    Considering that twice now the party has only not died due to Gandalf's intervention, I can understand how upsetting they find this.

    Baths in the river, then marching across the river and off to an acquaintance of Gandalf

    The large rock is the Carrock for the same reason that Bilbo lives under the Hill and not under a hill.

    Gandalf is describing his acquaintance, named Beorn, as a skin-changer: One who changes between the form of a great mighty black bear and a great might hairy man and not even Gandalf knows for sure which is his true form(though he thinks he's a Man)... And honestly, he sounds like another fairytale monster. Perfectly polite and friendly if you are respectful, follow the right conduct, catch him in a good mood ect but God help you if you catch him wrong or set him off.

    Beorn keeps horses and cattle and beehives and the bees are huge frick-all sting-you-and-you'll-swell-to-twice-your-size bees. Beorn better be getting some damn good honey from these monsters.

    And turns out he's not an acquaintance of Gandalf after all, Gandalf has seen and heard of him but never met him, and Beorn knows Radagast, not Gandalf. Something tells me that this is going to end badly.

    Beorn seems a gruff sort. Makes sense, he is sometimes a bear.

    Between the description and the illustration, it seems that Beorn lives in a very nice hall, if a bit barebones.

    Gandalf tells the story of how they came to be in Beorn's lands... Interrupted by the arrival of the dwarves.

    Like Bilbo before him, Beorn is frustrated that more and more dwarves keep appearing in his home... But at the same time he's hooked enough on the story that he just wants to hear more, which Biblo guesses was Gandalf's plan all along and soon enough it's dinner time, which Beorn agrees they've earned for the story.

    The fires are lit and the table set by a parade of animals, as if Beorn was a god-damned Disney Princess... Very much a Fair Folk vibe about him.

    As they eat their dinner, a magnificent meal like that they ae at the Last Homely House, by beeswax candles at a table described lovingly in Tolkien's flowery descriptive prose, Beorn tells stories of the dark and dangerous wildlands, stories that concern the dwarves.

    After dinner, we get another dwarf song! This one's a bit spooky.

    Beorn is gone by this point, and Gandalf insists that it is now bedtime, and not to go outside until dawn.

    A full day passes with no sign of Beorn or Gandalf, though our party is waited on by Beorn's animals, and Gandalf alone comes back in the evening, eats, spends a while blowing smoke rings, and then explains: Gandalf was tracking Beorn and finds that there seems to have been some kind of bear-congress nearby.

    Apparently, Beorn has led all the bears into a forest-gang-war with the Wargs. Fun!

    Beorn is back the next morning in good spirits and confirms that he's confirmed Gandalf's story. He likes them now because they killed the Great Goblin. He loans them ponies and horses, and gifts them enough food for weeks and knowledge of where to get water, before telling them when and where they'll have to start worrying about food again.

    One last meal with Beorn and they're off once more.

    It seems to be implied that Beorn, or another bear, is escorting our party in secret: Only Bilbo notices and when he brings it up to Gandalf Gandalf shooshes him.

    Never mind: It's confirmed shortly afterward and that it's as much to protect the ponies as our party.

    Once the party reaches the Murkwood, which from the description seems like the ne plus ultra of magical but somewhat spooky forests, Gandalf announces that this is where they will part.

    Next e get a description of just how dangerous the world is, with another mention of the Necromancer, here described as a "black sorcerer" that Bilbo well should know about and...

    The Necromancer is Sauron, isn't he?

    Also references to "goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs" and unless I'm mistaken it's already established that two of those are the same thing. I'm curious as to understand what Hogoblin means in this context.

    And with a final goodbye and warning, Gandalf departs.


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    As I mentioned, this very much feels like something out of a fairy tale—and not necessarily a children's fairy tale, either. The entire extended exchange with Beorn, how he is described before and after, the trappings of his home and servants, it all gives very much a "Fair Folk" vibe.

    Particularly towards the end of the chapter, the ends of the forest when Gandalf spells out "he might be your friend now but you do not want to piss him off."

    I could see something very similar to this playing out in a centuries-old folktale and I just love that I can picture that.
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  21. - Top - End - #261
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    I wonder how the Bear community views Beorn.

    Hobgoblins must be half hobbit, half goblin. Or maybe Tolkien was trying to suggest a size scale, with goblins on the small end, hobgoblins a bit larger, and orcs "the great orcs of the mountains" on the large end.

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    It's probably not surprising that this reads like a folk tale. Tolkien's objective in writing his legendarium was to provide a sort of root folktale for England like many other European countries have, but we don't--I mean, you have the Arthurian legends, but there's not really anything "further back" saying how the land was founded, and Tolkien thought there should be one. Even though the Hobbit was not originally written as part of of that legendarium, bits and pieces of it seeped in to the work, so much of it does read like an ancient folk tale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The Necromancer is Sauron, isn't he?
    Yes, but they don't know this at this point. Most of the info on this is in the LotR appendicies:

    "The Necromancer" sets up a power base in southern Mirkwood making the wood much more dangerous than it was.
    His influence puts pressure on the wood elves in the north (this is probably one of the reasons they are so paranoid about visitors - they have an evil, hostile, expansive southern neighbour who has probably already cost them a chunk of territory).
    Gandalf investigates Dol guldur in perosn adn concludes that the Necromancer could be Sauron, but is a real threat and not safe to ignore.
    The White Council - Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond and possible others - finally agree that the Necromancer must be dealt with (Saruman the main opposeduntil this point) and assemble a force (probably military) and assault Dol Gulder - the Necromancer withdraws rather than opposing them.
    Shortly afterwards Sauron reclaims Barad Dur and openly proclaims himself. The wise of the white council think 1+1=2 and realise The Necromancer = Sauron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Also references to "goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs" and unless I'm mistaken it's already established that two of those are the same thing. I'm curious as to understand what Hogoblin means in this context.
    Tolkein used the phrase to refer to a larger goblin. I don't have the direct quote at hand, but the version I found on the web is:

    "orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated as goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."

    (It is supposed to be a footnote in the introduction to one of the editions of The Hobbit.)
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    Spoiler: Not really a spoiler for this book but not really about it either
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    Yes, but they don't know this at this point. Most of the info on this is in the LotR appendicies:

    "The Necromancer" sets up a power base in southern Mirkwood making the wood much more dangerous than it was.
    His influence puts pressure on the wood elves in the north (this is probably one of the reasons they are so paranoid about visitors - they have an evil, hostile, expansive southern neighbour who has probably already cost them a chunk of territory).
    Actually, Thranduil moved up North after the War of the Last Alliance when Sauron was thought to be dead (and spent centuries licking his wounds), the move was due to the reduced population caused by the severe wood elven casualties at the Battle of Dagorlag. The Necromancer simply settled the abandonned palace/fortress of Amon Lanc which would later be called Dol Guldur.

    Gandalf investigates Dol guldur in perosn adn concludes that the Necromancer could be Sauron, but is a real threat and not safe to ignore.
    The White Council - Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond and possible others - finally agree that the Necromancer must be dealt with (Saruman the main opposeduntil this point) and assemble a force (probably military) and assault Dol Gulder - the Necromancer withdraws rather than opposing them.
    Shortly afterwards Sauron reclaims Barad Dur and openly proclaims himself. The wise of the white council think 1+1=2 and realise The Necromancer = Sauron.
    Gandalf identified the Necromancer as being Sauron, no doubt about that. Saruman opposed attacking him because he claimed that the Ring had flowed into the sea out of reach by anyone and that without it, Sauron was nit dangerous enough to warrant action.
    In truth Saruman thought the Ring was still around the Gladden Fields (where Smeagol had found it), had the place crawling with his agents and hoped that by allowing Sauron to bolster his forces he would draw the Ring out of hiding. And then all his agents either were murdered or stopped reporting to him as they were double agents for Sauron.
    Sauron only openly revealed himself ten years after being drawn out of Dol Guldur.
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    Well, technically orc *is* an English word, but it doesn't have anything to do with goblins, it's an old word for a whale derived from Latin and French.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, technically orc *is* an English word, but it doesn't have anything to do with goblins, it's an old word for a whale derived from Latin and French.
    On the contrary, that is only one derivation of the word:

    Orc, a mythical creature (such as a sea monster, a giant, or an ogre) of horrid form or aspect.

    The word orc in English has two distinct sources. Orc in reference to a vaguely cetacean sea monster is borrowed from one or more Romance words, such as the French orque or the Italian orca, all ultimately descended from the Latin orca, which probably denoted a small cetacean such as the killer whale. In Ludovico Ariosto’s epic Orlando furioso, the heroine Angelica is set out as a victim for a man-eating orca, in a literary recasting of the Andromeda myth.

    A different word orc, alluding to a demon or ogre, appears in Old English glosses of about ad 800 and in the compound word orcnēas (“monsters”) in the poem Beowulf. As with the Italian orco (“ogre”) and the word ogre itself, it ultimately derives from the Latin Orcus, a god of the underworld. The Old English creatures were most likely the inspiration for the orcs that appear in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings.
    (Although I did not know about the orca reference - you learn something new every day...)
    Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2021-08-21 at 06:19 AM.
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    Did I miss the spider chapter? Or is that one still coming?
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    That would be next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
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    The spiders are in the general "Mirkwood really sucks" section coming up next.
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