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    Question [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    So, been windering about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Q 438

    What happens with classes like Sha'ir or Savant, in regards to PrCs that have "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class", in regards to advancing their base casting?

    Does it work differently for each?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post17020889
    A438 : Unclear‚ but most probably only one level is gained‚ following the writing of Mystic Theurge.
    Imagine you're a Sha'ir about to take a level of, say, Wild Mage. Wild Mage advances "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class".

    A Sha'ir can innately cast arcane and divine spells. Does his overall casting ability go up?

    Same question, but for Savant. Savant are a bit different than Sha'ir, in that they have separate progression tables for their arcane and divine casting.

    Would it only advance the arcane side of their casting? Is that even possible?

    Additionally, for Savant, if you take a PrC that advances casting, and you haven't hit the level where you can cast yet (or can only cast arcane), do you get advanced toward casting?

    Interested in all input.

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    Last edited by Thurbane; 2021-07-22 at 06:36 PM. Reason: typos as usual

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    It says, "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class", nothing about increasing the spellcasting ability itself.
    Since it specifies 'class', I'd rule it as increasing all spellcasting from that class, regardless of type of casting. As long as it is an arcane spellcasting class, the others are added on as riders.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    A Sha'ir can innately cast arcane and divine spells. Does his overall casting ability go up?
    The specific line is, "can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells." The selection of "divine" spells is of course so limited that the claim that they're "extremely versatile" is completely bogus.

    The Role entry before the class says "The sha'ir provides arcane casting ability to the party." And armor proficiency, "armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures," Which is about as explicit as you're going to get I think (since they deliberately mucked up the main spellcasting description oohing and aahing about that handful of domain spells instead of clearly stating it's an arcane caster like they're supposed to).

    But since the only reason for distinction is on this PrC thing- they're clearly arcane casters. If you want to say that being able to cast a spell on a "divine" list that happens to not be on an "arcane" list makes you a divine spellcaster for PrCs, then sure, let them take divine PrCs. But the placement of X spell on Y list is not what actually makes make that determination- it's supposed to be clearly stated in the class.

    A better question I think, is: "What is the difference between arcane and divine spellcasters?" The only real mechanical distinction is that arcane spells have Arcane Spell Failure, and divine spells don't. All other attributes such as the ability score used for casting, what spells are on the list, number or lack of limit on spells known, and even the use of spell or prayer books, are completely mutable by all sorts of feats and new classes. And since the sha'ir does have that note in the armor proficiency, there's your answer.

    Same question, but for Savant. Savant are a bit different than Sha'ir, in that they have separate progression tables for their arcane and divine casting.

    Would it only advance the arcane side of their casting? Is that even possible?

    Additionally, for Savant, if you take a PrC that advances casting, and you haven't hit the level where you can cast yet (or can only cast arcane), do you get advanced toward casting?
    Why not? The Savant's spellcasting isn't even innate from 1st level, it pops up at specific class levels marked as a new class ability. So yes, not only could a PrC advance only one side or the other, but indeed, entering a PrC before you've officially gained the casting means you never will.

    (Every time I'm reminded that class exists I look at it and go "oh hey, it's proto-Factotum, it's just like my dual casting bard list Red Mage!" And then I keep reading and remember that no, it's actually a sequential multiclass with slashed spell slots and restricted lists and the only thing unique is the fix for party-stealth which is still poorly executed).
    Last edited by Fizban; 2021-07-22 at 07:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    OK, so seems to be full casting progression for either class.

    How about Savants that can't cast yet. I would imagine it would be the same for 3rd level Rangers or Paladins.

    If you take a level in a PrC that advances casting, do you get advanced is you don't already have casting ability?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    A better question I think, is: "What is the difference between arcane and divine spellcasters?" The only real mechanical distinction is that arcane spells have Arcane Spell Failure, and divine spells don't. All other attributes such as the ability score used for casting, what spells are on the list, number or lack of limit on spells known, and even the use of spell or prayer books, are completely mutable by all sorts of feats and new classes. And since the sha'ir does have that note in the armor proficiency, there's your answer.
    That debate on that is a bit more prickly than you may think: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633271

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post

    How about Savants that can't cast yet. I would imagine it would be the same for 3rd level Rangers or Paladins.

    If you take a level in a PrC that advances casting, do you get advanced is you don't already have casting ability?
    Assuming that you can find a PrC that advances spellcasting without a prerequisite of ability to cast spells, sure.

    Let me put it another way. There is no reason to police something like this because doing it would be a very poor choice. It's not like having to watch out for players trying to trick you with stuff like dragonwrought kobold.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    That debate on that is a bit more prickly than you may think: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633271
    To be fair, the "debate" on most little rules things is far more prickly than I think it should ever be. You yourself are generally looking for RAW answers- but the fact is that if you try hard enough almost any RAW question can be dragged all the way down to the reading of its english, as demonstrated by that (and many other) threads, and held there forever. The only PHB rule for the difference between the two that isn't completely ignored by some future writer at some point* (that I'm aware of) is Arcane Spell Failure, and sha'ir have it.

    I find it abundantly clear what the sha'ir is "RAW" supposed to be, when three different parts of the description mention arcane spells, including a restriction that never ever applies to divine spells. And it's pretty clear how casting progressing PrCs are supposed to be. Hunting down and quibbling about edge cases where these words don't perfectly line up with those words, to me, is a giant waste of time (I responded because of course, I found the answer to be both pretty obvious and even more supported in the text than I expected, guess what happens?). If you're the DM and the problem is actually relevant to your game and you wish to listen to such arguments from your players, that's your choice, but even so you have to make the ruling because there is no limit on the number of times someone can theoretically say "but what if I read word X to mean. . . "

    They don't explicitly count as both arcane and divine, but their spellcasting entry fails to state what they specifically are. They are referred to as arcane for their party role, suffer arcane spell failure, and barely have any "divine" spells added to their list. They are either arcane, or you decide that in this case that lack of specificity means they count as both- or you decide that it means they count as neither and can't benefit from any PrC that specifies arcane or divine spells. Three options, all of which can be contested indefinitely, pick one*.


    *Except those future writers don't actually matter, because the PHB still sets the definition. And the Glossary which has been brought up before does have something to say on the subject- defining them by the fluff backing and specific classes in the book. Which is why any new class needs to explicitly state which of those two it falls under, while the Artificer makes a point of being neither.

    *The RAW'est answer is that they aren't specified as either, so they aren't either, and get the worst result- but this is not a situation you even presented as possible.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    ....And the "divine" spells are actually domain spells as they come off of domain lists, not from a divine caster list. Use of the word "divine" is a misnomer. So yeah....it's an arcane spellcaster only unless you really take it at its word instead of at its mechanical level.

    A savant definitely is a dual caster though.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-07-22 at 09:06 PM.

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    Question Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    OK, so to flip the question, what about PrCs that are "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class", like Contemplative.

    Safe to assume that would not advance Sha'ir?

    Would it advance Savant?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    I would say so.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Savant only gets its spells from class features, though.

    "At 5th level, the savant chooses two spells from his lists that he has acquired through research and diligent study. Each level afterward, he selects two more arcane spells from the savant arcane spell list. The savant cannot select spells from a given level until he is high enough level to cast them."

    And

    "The savant gains divine spells in the same manner as arcane ones. At 10th level, he learns two new divine spells from the savant divine list. Each level thereafter he gains two additional divine spells. He must be high enough level to cast a spell before he can select it. If the savant has a 0 listed for a spell level, he can cast and gain new spells of that level if his Wisdom score is high enough to grant him bonus spells of that level."

    Even if you got extra spell slots, etc, from PrCs, I'd argue that you don't get new spells to use in those spell slots.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    Even if you got extra spell slots, etc, from PrCs, I'd argue that you don't get new spells to use in those spell slots.
    Ooh, now that's an interesting point. So kind of like how PrCs can't progress Chameleon casting?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Ooh, now that's an interesting point. So kind of like how PrCs can't progress Chameleon casting?
    Yeah, I'd argue the same, and for the same reason. Chameleon and Savant both get their spells through specific class abilities, which aren't transferred to a PrC that just "advances spellcasting".

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    I would say that any class that advances casting would Advance Savants in the same way as taking another level of Savant would.


    It maybe an incorrect interpretation, but I always assumed Sha'ir casted the "divine spells" that can get as Arcane spells and were not actually divine casters at all. They could merely cast Divine spells off those lists in a similar fashion to how some dragons can cast divine spells as arcane spells.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    OK, so to flip the question, what about PrCs that are "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class", like Contemplative.

    Safe to assume that would not advance Sha'ir?

    Would it advance Savant?
    Why would it not advance Sha'ir? It can cast divine spells, so it's a divine spellcasting class. Even though it is much more centered on arcane, the process of retrieving spells is exactly the same for arcane and divine, just with different numbers, so I don't see any argument to say that it is only an arcane spellcasting class.

    At least definitely RAW (the alternative would be to say that it isn't arcane nor divine, which is... dubious) and probably RAI (at least, I'd rule it that way), Contemplative would advance Sha'ir casting. And, as said before, you advance the casting of the class, not the "arcane casting of the class", so it would also advance arcane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane
    How about Savants that can't cast yet. I would imagine it would be the same for 3rd level Rangers or Paladins.
    That's more tricky... I'd say a class is still a spellcasting class even if they can't cast yet, so you should be able to get your 4th level of Paladin and start casting. But that definitely messes with ACF that trade casting for something and that you choose at level 4.

    Edit: I just noticed that the ACF of both Ranger and Paladin who trade spellcasting (Champion of the Wild and Holy Warrior) both happen at level 1, even though they only have benefits after level 4. This might be only because it also trades their ability to use magic items, but it definitely implies that these are spellcasting classes from the start, not only when they reach the point where they can actually cast spells, so you should be able to advance them with prestige classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly
    Savant only gets its spells from class features, though.

    "At 5th level, the savant chooses two spells from his lists that he has acquired through research and diligent study. Each level afterward, he selects two more arcane spells from the savant arcane spell list. The savant cannot select spells from a given level until he is high enough level to cast them."

    And

    "The savant gains divine spells in the same manner as arcane ones. At 10th level, he learns two new divine spells from the savant divine list. Each level thereafter he gains two additional divine spells. He must be high enough level to cast a spell before he can select it. If the savant has a 0 listed for a spell level, he can cast and gain new spells of that level if his Wisdom score is high enough to grant him bonus spells of that level."

    Even if you got extra spell slots, etc, from PrCs, I'd argue that you don't get new spells to use in those spell slots.
    I like that reading. However, something that you can do in this case is, if you can get at least 2 "virtual levels" of savant casting, then you should be able to learn higher level spells each two levels, since you are "high enough level to cast" them.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-23 at 05:05 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    I find it argumentable that Sha'ir isn't either Arcane or Divine spellcasting. She has a special retrevial method that allows her to access Most arcane spells and some divine spells, but she does not cast as either arcane ( weave ) or divine ( god granted ). Compare the wording to the wizard. Wizards says "A wizard casts arcane spells" in it's spells feature. a Sha'ir says "retrieves" etcetera, but the source of power isn't the traditional arcane or divine source.

    From this point of view, almost no PrC would advance Sha'ir spellcasting, not those that specifically says "+1 arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 divine spellcasting class" .

    Unless we are back to the argument that teh definition of arcane/divine spellcaster is "can cast arcane/divine spells", which I vaguely remember was shut down in the thread about using souther magician to qualify for "divine spellcasting PrC" on an arcane spellcaster base.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I like that reading. However, something that you can do in this case is, if you can get at least 2 "virtual levels" of savant casting, then you should be able to learn higher level spells each two levels, since you are "high enough level to cast" them.
    If you're not in Savant, you don't have the class feature to actually learn the spells though, unfortunately. I suppose you can use these new spell slots to add metamagic to your old spells.

    You could homebrew something if you felt the need, but it would be a homebrew solution, and I wouldn't bother unless someone specifically wanted to play as a Savant and was having issues.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    If you're not in Savant, you don't have the class feature to actually learn the spells though, unfortunately. I suppose you can use these new spell slots to add metamagic to your old spells.

    You could homebrew something if you felt the need, but it would be a homebrew solution, and I wouldn't bother unless someone specifically wanted to play as a Savant and was having issues.
    No, I mean, take 5 levels of savant, then 5 levels of contemplative, then 10 levels of savant. That's probably really bad (but then again, Savant by itself is not that good, and putting away its other class features to only keep spellcasting is even worse), but when you reach Savant 7, you could choose level 2 arcane spells instead of level 1.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    No, I mean, take 5 levels of savant, then 5 levels of contemplative, then 10 levels of savant. That's probably really bad (but then again, Savant by itself is not that good, and putting away its other class features to only keep spellcasting is even worse), but when you reach Savant 7, you could choose level 2 arcane spells instead of level 1.
    Remember you don't get divine magic until level 10. You could use dips PrCs to get domains, I suppose, but you're capped at fourth-level divine spells. If you want to run that sort of build, you'd probably be better running a Divine Crusader build instead, which does give you 9th-level spells.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    I don't think there is any difference between RAW and RAI in this instance. If you get +1 of arcane spellcasting class then all the spellcasting of that class is advanced by +1, even if there is a divine component of the class. Ranger and Paladin are the same, even if the character is yet to be able to cast a spell, assuming a prestige class exists with lax entry requirements for spellcasting.

    The Savant is a special case that requires adjudication. On the surface Savant looks similar to Ranger or Paladin. Ranger/Paladin spells begin at level 4. Savant spells begin at level 5 for arcane, and level 10 for divine. A PrC to advance Savant is a poor choice and the designer of Savant probably never gave the possibility a second thought. I think that the best way to handle it, RAW and RAI, is to simply accept that Savant is both a divine and arcane spellcasting class starting at level 1, and whatever PrC advances arcane or divine advances Savant normally as if Savant has leveled up normally for the purposes of spellcasting - assuming the Savant can meet the entry prerequisites, which I suspect it usually cannot.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Spellcasting is also a class feature so I don't think that it being separate features for a savant would prevent it from being progressed by PRCs.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    A lot of varying opinions here.

    Good to see, but also showcases that these classes could have been defined a bit better.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sha'ir, Savants, and PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    A lot of varying opinions here.

    Good to see, but also showcases that these classes could have been defined a bit better.
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