Name That Subgenre

[Quixotic1]

A friend and I are working on a game setting inspired by the fantasy works of Pendleton Ward ("Adventure Time", "Midnight Gospel", "Over the Garden Wall"). We've been calling it a Wardian fantasy, but is there a more accurate term, you think?

It's definitely got elements of child/young adult fantasy, and obviously plenty of comedy. It can be high or low/contemporary.
Beyond that, I would say most of his work seems to involve a highly diverse population and...not always an outright subversion of tropes, but a deviation from them.
Supporting characters are often ridiculous and simple. Main characters are often initially ridiculous, but have a complex history that explains their growth into their current state.
And...the overall tone of the world is whimsical, sometimes zany or manic, but there are deeper undertones of seriousness, carrying more complex themes and a strong sense of melancholy.

[Mastikator]

What's the opposite of grimdark? Hopepunk? Fantasy hopepunk?

[Quixotic1]

Hey, that's pretty good. Gladlight? Ha.

Still, I'm not so sure. A lot of the messages told through his work are pretty heavy things. Not like "Song of Ice and Fire" nastiness, but...hm. Just the general feelings of doubt, loneliness and loss that come with being alive?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've never seen Adventure Time, but your description makes me think about walking the line between childhood and adulthood--the zany passion of youth starting to be tempered by the tragedies of the world. So maybe something spinning off "bildungsroman?" Bildungspunk?

<Looks at what I just typed>
<Sounds it out in my head >

Okay, definitely NOT bildungspunk. But maybe bildungsfarce?

[Corvus]

What's the opposite of grimdark? Hopepunk? Fantasy hopepunk?

The opposite of grimdark is noblebright.

[Mechalich]

The subgenre that qualifies is probably 'Action-Comedy' which is an extremely common genre in animation, and especially kid-friendly animation in general, in part because animation can embrace a level of physical comedy that live action really cannot - at least not without putting the actors in danger of grievous bodily harm, Jackie Chan has long been a master of the action-comedy in live action action-comedy precisely because he's willing to undertake truly insane stunts for a sake of a joke.

Adventure Time, specifically, also includes a fairly large amount of surrealism compared to a more straightforward action-comedy in a fantasy setting (for example, Wakfu), something that it's simplified and highly stylistic animation style lends it to compared to something animated in a more traditional way.

[Eldan]

What's the opposite of grimdark? Hopepunk? Fantasy hopepunk?

The Warhammer Fandom calls it Noblebright. But that's still a pretty serious genre, more like serious knightly dudes going to honourable war.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm dunno if "Grimbright" would be an accurate descriptor, but it sounds closer to what's being asked than "Nobledark."

The definition I see associated with Grimbright goes like this: "Grimbright settings have beautiful lush landscapes. There are flower forests, everything is magical and beautiful but everything is trying to kill you. The flower forests are probably grown on blood, and the really hot fairy queen probably commits genocide on a regular basis--and it's regularly accepted by the populace. Grimbright heroes are savage, snarky, and maybe even cruel, but they are also elegant, mischievous and clever. Bottom line; everything is pretty, but terrible things are right behind all the colors."

Thus definition was written long before Adventure Time and its cousins came out, and is perhaps a bit reductive, since it doesn't really address the melancholic or sometimes philosophical tack these shows will sometimes take, but it's a good marker on the map to orient ourselves with.

[Xuc Xac]

Thus definition was written long before Adventure Time and its cousins came out, and is perhaps a bit reductive, since it doesn't really address the melancholic or sometimes philosophical tack these shows will sometimes take, but it's a good marker on the map to orient ourselves with.

The melancholy is covered in the "grim" part.

[Eldan]

I don't think Grim is the same as Melancholy. Melancholy is sad, but also wishful. It implies to me a Kind of bittersweet. Grimdark (at least non-parodic, as 40k sometimes becomes) is exhausting and depressive. A boot stomping on a face forever isn't melancholy.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm dunno if "Grimbright" would be an accurate descriptor, but it sounds closer to what's being asked than "Nobledark."

The definition I see associated with Grimbright goes like this: "Grimbright settings have beautiful lush landscapes. There are flower forests, everything is magical and beautiful but everything is trying to kill you. The flower forests are probably grown on blood, and the really hot fairy queen probably commits genocide on a regular basis--and it's regularly accepted by the populace. Grimbright heroes are savage, snarky, and maybe even cruel, but they are also elegant, mischievous and clever. Bottom line; everything is pretty, but terrible things are right behind all the colors."

Thus definition was written long before Adventure Time and its cousins came out, and is perhaps a bit reductive, since it doesn't really address the melancholic or sometimes philosophical tack these shows will sometimes take, but it's a good marker on the map to orient ourselves with.

Okay here's thing:

1. All these categories? I'd consider pretty extreme corners of genre fiction. Like they should not be taken as categorical but rather far end points on a spectrum, and thats being generous. there is a lot of room for nuance between all these, and I would say a lot of settings wouldn't fit any one of them. Like I'd personally contest putting Star Wars into Nobledark and Exalted into Noblebright? those don't feel right at all to me, but thats neither here nor there.

2. What the OP is describing probably wasn't made with any of these categories in mind. any of the shows really. Because these definitions are all things that like, originated as memes back in like 2008 and probably from the online WH40k fandom. its essentially a 13 year old meme

3. it sounds like he's just taking stuff from one author, and one author does not a genre make. just say its inspired by Pendleton Ward's stuff, because that is the most accurate and honest your going to get. otherwise the closest genre you can place on them is "Post 2010 story-based cartoons", because what the OP describes could describe a few shows I've seen that have nothing to do with Pendleton Ward guy whose stuff I've personally never watched. though considering what the description reminds me of, if we're really insisting on this particular genre categorization system I'd just say they're all noblebright, straight up. melancholy has no affect on this- or if it does, well the melancholy is about how the character is sympathetic which is the universe showing compassion to that character thus a Noble trait, thus Noblebright. just because its sad doesn't mean its not noble.

[Anonymouswizard]

What's the opposite of grimdark? Hopepunk? Fantasy hopepunk?

I'd avoid 'hope' as part of the name, because hope can be both positive and negative things. Plus while the only one of the listed shows I've seen any of is Adventure Time, which I hate, I'd argue that from what I've heard it's a bit more complex than could be summed up with 'hopepunk'.

Plus to me hopepunk sounds like the kind of story where kids are rounded up so their emotions can be used to fuel machinery.


Honestly I'd suspect that there isn't a proper genre term for it as a whole, but you could probably find two or three that fit. If you don't want to include the author's name then reading from your description I'd honestly just go with 'whimsical, melancholic fantasy'.

But genre lines are arbitrary anyway. World of Darkness and Unknown Armies bill themselves as horror games, but the label 'urban fantasy' applies to both of them just as well. Could go 'occult horror' for both of them, but you can pull out a neverending stream of subgenre names if you try hard enough (like 'magical realism', which seems to mean 'personal relationship focused fantasy' from the little research I've done into it). Inspirations are more important than being able to define your subgenre.

[Quixotic1]

...the only one of the listed shows I've seen any of is Adventure Time, which I hate...

I'm curious. Why do you *hate*? I mean, it's definitely not for everyone. But what about it elicits such a strong reaction for you, if I may ask?

Honestly I'd suspect that there isn't a proper genre term for it as a whole, but you could probably find two or three that fit.

Of course. I've even done so in my initial post. I just figured I'd tap into the collective brain trust of these forums to see if I can find anything that fits more completely and specifically.

...genre lines are arbitrary anyway...you can pull out a neverending stream of subgenre names if you try hard enough (like 'magical realism', which seems to mean 'personal relationship focused fantasy' from the little research I've done into it).

Agreed. I don't think it's about creating a definitive list. It's about being able to describe a work/style/whatever concisely.

Inspirations are more important than being able to define your subgenre.

For sure. I thought it would be nice to offer up a shorthand description of the sort of stories one could tell with the setting, though.
And beyond that, we're not entirely sure if Ward would want his name associated with such a thing anyway, so it seemed like a good idea to cast about for other options.

[Beleriphon]

Isn't something like Adventure Time just gonzo fantasy? I say this because basically anything goes, the characters are allowed to be as weird as the writers want without having to worry about it not making sense, the plots and places can be as weird as they want, basically if you can think of something it can work.

[VonKaiserstein]

Postmodern fairy tales would fit pretty nicely. Adventure time is as episodic as the Brothers Grimm, with 'most' of the episodes teaching their young hero something approaching a lesson. Still, it is allowed to grow beyond the general caricatures of a traditional fairy tale. They may live by rules made up at the time "Seriously? 3 leaves raises the dead? Ok, then, I'm putting 3 leaves on this dead princess- oh no! the leaves brought her back evil!" (That is the Brothers Grimm story 3 snake leaves, but could easily have been an Adventure Time episode).

The postmodern bit comes in because although not generally aware of their audience, Ward's characters are often very aware that they are acting in a world with extremely arbitrary rules (example, the thousand and one princesses in Adventure Time), giving it a deadpoolish quality, although far more lighthearted. Everyone's given a role, often of some great importance, and is immediately aware of their expectations, and how others should view them. Plus, fairy tales can range from gruesome to whimsical, often in the same story. Sounds like a fairy tale to me!

[Prime32]

Isn't something like Adventure Time just gonzo fantasy? I say this because basically anything goes, the characters are allowed to be as weird as the writers want without having to worry about it not making sense, the plots and places can be as weird as they want, basically if you can think of something it can work.

I don't know if it fits into New Weird, but some adjacent stuff might.

[Quixotic1]

I'm not sure if Gonzo fantasy is actually very accurate; the characters are definitely "just people" and not at all larger than life. Even a 1000-year old gum construct/super scientist or a half-demon, hard-rocking vampire have pretty normal, relatable personalities.
I think that's one of the elements we want to replicate, too. The world is crazy. The people--that is, what they're made of, the positions they occupy, the lives they lead--are crazy, but they think and feel like we do.

Postmodern fairy-tail, very much so. I mean, the episode "Little Brother" is about a worm losing his tail, it gaining sentience and going off to fight bad guys with a cocktail sword, but it actually follows multiple tropes from the classic epics.

New Weird could be a fit for some aspects of it, yeah. Young Adult Comedic New Weird.