OOTS #1241 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Okay, yeah, yep. That one's on me

To kick a dead horse, Sunny uses them to see behind them in the sixth panel.

[Ionathus]

To kick a dead horse, Sunny uses them to see behind them in the sixth panel.

Ooh, that's a nifty little detail! I was zipping through the comic on the first readthrough, like I always do, and got too caught up in the excitement to notice.

[Svata]

I can believe that it's V's best save. The point is that it makes sense for V to fail Will saves more often than Durkon does on average.

Oh, my mistake. Yeah, I agree

[Living Oxymoron]

OMG... what if the bolt that hit V was dipped in that amnesia cauldron that Serini mentioned?

What are the effects of such thing in a Wizard?

I think that may fulfill some "prophecy" that I heard here in the forum, which says that Vaarsuvius won't ever again use 9th level spells, let alone more powerful ones...

[Fyraltari]

OMG... what if the bolt that hit V was dipped in that amnesia cauldron that Serini mentioned?

The one that wasn't done brewing when she left?

[t209]

Sunny the Beholder seems bubbly and naivete.
That or being exposed to Xanathar didn't help.

[TRH]

I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius has made a single successful saving throw in the entire comic. They may as well not have save bonuses.

[ebarde]

they passed one con check but that was it

[Rinazina]

Dear Forumites, I want to bring up two points respectfully:

1. If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?
2. is this the comic with the most magical effect at once ever? like, WorldTimeRecordMagicalEffectsOnASinglePanel kind of prize?

[InvisibleBison]

Dear Forumites, I want to bring up two points respectfully:
If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?

In the past, healing spells have been shown to erase wounds, so I think it's pretty likely Durkon cast neutralize poison instead.

is this the comic with the most magical effect at once ever? like, WorldTimeRecordMagicalEffectsOnASinglePanel kind of prize?

If by "at once" you mean "in the same comic", then yes, it is. I count 14 distinct magical effects*, compared to eleven in two other with the next-greatest amount of magic that I could find.


*Antimagic cone, Elan's spell, Durkon's spell, Haley's magic arrow, V's flight and light spells, prismatic spray, and seven eye rays.

[Rinazina]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

I want to bet rather the opposite, with also an addendum.

The IFCC would take Suvie in this combat to keep hir body protected; in addition, hi would be possessed. And this would be the effect of a certainly anticipated artifact that has to take place.

a.k.a. no truly resolution of conflict, but an escalation to another level.


Also, am I right that the mysterious character with one appearance would become a prominent participant in this book? Not just an adversary, but someone more long-lasting? I remember this (and it's Sunny!!), but it might also mean Serini has to unlife asap (plus she can't be TheOldMentor figure https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html and don't be threatened by permanent death)

[Thecommander236]

Just realized #8 is probably Death Ray (huge necrotic damage, dodgable by dex) . It could also be Enervation Ray (mild necrotic damage, Constitution save) or Disintegration Ray (almost as huge force damage, Dex save).

[TRH]

Just realized #8 is probably Death Ray (huge necrotic damage, dodgable by dex) . It could also be Enervation Ray (mild necrotic damage, Constitution save) or Disintegration Ray (almost as huge force damage, Dex save).

Those sound like 5E mechanics. This is still based on 3.5.

[KorvinStarmast]

[*]If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?

My guess is that it was neutralize poison

[Rinazina]

In the past, healing spells have been shown to erase wounds, so I think it's pretty likely Durkon cast neutralize poison instead.

ah thanks so now he should use a restore strength or something like this?

If by "at once" you mean "in the same comic", then yes, it is. I count 14 distinct magical effects*, compared to eleven in two other with the next-greatest amount of magic that I could find.

*Antimagic cone, Elan's spell, Durkon's spell, Haley's magic arrow, V's flight and light spells, prismatic spray, and seven eye rays.

Congrats on your commitment, friend.
I was more thinking "in a single panel" and not including active effects, so it was kind of an easy one to think to eight rays. But I want to acknowledge your dedication by offering constructive feedback: in 638, you counted 8+1 from time stop, finger of death, shapechange. so 11. But then also the V's overland flight and the screen-TVHD should count? are 13.
And then I wondered... but hasn't V something that still wear on hir, since the battle with the imp... and TA DA https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html are 14 active magic spells.

[WanderingMist]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

That, or something will happen when V is called the second time which will cause the third time to be entirely moot.

[Thecommander236]

Those sound like 5E mechanics. This is still based on 3.5.

I am aware, but I couldn't find the 3.5E rules description.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I am aware, but I couldn't find the 3.5E rules description.

Here you go.

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if there's actually casting being done in panel 4 or if the magic auras are just there to signify "magic is back on".

[bguy]

I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius has made a single successful saving throw in the entire comic. They may as well not have save bonuses.

It looks like V made a successful save against Laurin's psionic attack in panel 3 of Strip 935.

[Zhorn]

Ahhhhhh we're so close to the Bloodfeast awesomeness, so close!

We ALL want to see Bloodfeast, but I have to give it to the Giants, narratively Belkar getting his lizard out but then being denied is funnier.
Short term anyway.
If the fight ends quickly then that's that. But if it continues naturally then it's only a matter of time.
We have a beholder with an anti-magic zone, a creature stuck in polymorph, and a character pointing out the potential for the two to interact.
This is a chekhov's gun waiting to go off.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[RickDaily12]

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third time the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And both those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.

The stakes are lower here, since Serini doesn't actually want to kill them, but that is hardly the point here. This trope of "guys, unlucky saving throws really happen" is fine to use once or twice, but if it's your only tool at your disposal to justify your characters losing every fight at a point where they really could have won if it only weren't for their trash character optimization, I think, is starting to get a little overused for the purposes of storytelling. Does it make the twist of how they end up winning the fight any less cool? No, it doesn't, because the reveals were pretty great. But the "how did we get here" parts before each reveal is starting to get a little too telegraphed for my liking at this point.

So I guess now we sit and watch to see if yet another external force intervenes to save the Order from a fight they could have won yet again, or whether this time they actually really do lose and have to deal with the consequences of that outcome for probably half of the book or something.

[TRH]

Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

And honestly, I don't think the stuff they know about the Gods and their angle in all of this will be as convincing to her as the rest of y'all seem to believe, because as we saw with Redcloak, claiming a bunch of convenient stuff about the Gods and their motivations with no evidence isn't terribly compelling as far as arguments go.

"Oh, you lunkheads were given a mission from Thor himself to negotiate with the Dark One to defeat the Snarl once and for all? Yeah, pull the other one."

[Moebius]

1) What spell is Elan casting in panel 4?
2) Did it go off before he got Charmed again?

[RickDaily12]

Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

Just to quickly build upon this: This is the second time, even, where the Order were given a reasonable amount of time to prepare for significant magical bombardment.

The first instance of that not working was actually much more excusable than in this instance. They lost those protections thanks to Dispel Magic- Antimagic Field only suppresses the protection spells they could have given themselves, which means any defense they would have attempted against Xykon would have been disgustingly handwaved once a few Will Saves start flying around, like we see here.

This whole fight only serves to prove Serini's point that the Order should not be here period, since if this is how they melted vs her, they would melt even worse against Xykon, seeing as how the party is fully aware by now that their terrible saving throws are exactly why they keep losing fights, and yet they're somehow stilll completely stumped about how to buff themselves into making that less of an issue.

[TRH]

Just to quickly build upon this: This is the second time, even, where the Order were given a reasonable amount of time to prepare for significant magical bombardment.

The first instance of that not working was actually much more excusable than in this instance. They lost those protections thanks to Dispel Magic- Antimagic Field only suppresses the protection spells they could have given themselves, which means any defense they would have attempted against Xykon would have been disgustingly handwaved once a few Will Saves start flying around, like we see here.

This whole fight only serves to prove Serini's point that the Order should not be here period, since if this is how they melted vs her, they would melt even worse against Xykon, seeing as how the party is fully aware by now that their terrible saving throws are exactly why they keep losing fights, and yet they're somehow stilll completely stumped about how to buff themselves into making that less of an issue.

I'm kind of interested in a thread about how many successful saving throws each Order member has made vs. unsuccessful ones over the course of the comic. It would have the problem that there's a lot of cases where it's ambiguous as to whether they made a save or not, but generally I'd expect Haley has made more successful saves than the rest of the party combined because she's constantly showing off her Evasion.

[Squire Doodad]

I want to bet rather the opposite, with also an addendum.

The IFCC would take Suvie in this combat to keep hir body protected; in addition, hi would be possessed. And this would be the effect of a certainly anticipated artifact that has to take place.

The IFCC have made it very explicit that possessing V's body would be a violation of their contract, hence their surprise that V assumed they planned on using V's body to steal the Gate or something. All they can do is jerk V out of play for enough rounds for a TPK to happen.

I imagine one of the two instances will come into play, but not both. Or, if it is both, we're going to see one of them very soon.

[Borris]

It looks like V made a successful save against Laurin's psionic attack in panel 3 of Strip 935.

It looks to me like they saved against Hilgya's Chaos Hammer in #1117 as well. I know it deals half damage on neutral creatures, but it seems like V made their Will save and took only half of that.

[Squire Doodad]

I'd assume ray 8 is either death or destruction, unless Sunny is very afraid of rotting stuff. Sunny strikes me as being the kind of person to prefer non-lethal attacks, especially as Serini mentioned them being supposed to get amnesia brew instead of killing them.

Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

Well, there is one other thing, but it's a cheap shot. Durkon, Minrah, etc recover; the party is going to get the upper hand, and then Elan recognizes Sunny as the one from the early strip, leading Sunny to be hesitant about things and just barely convincing Serini to at least give them a chance to talk.