OOTS #1241 - The Discussion Thread

[skim172]

I'm a little annoyed too how the fight is going but that's because it's not over yet. I have faith the OotS will get a win... or at least come down swinging like with Greg's horde (as Durkon and Scruffy saved the day last minute).

What we saw on this comic seemed to make a good turnaround following the arrow at the top, although Seniri and Sunny aren't holding back either. It certainly feels epic.

Well, if the Order gets captured, that'd be an opportunity for them to talk with Serini and Sunny in less combative circumstances. Narratively, that could serve a purpose.

But I agree, if that's where this was going, then this fight is having some twists and turns that aren't quite necessary. Could've just have had them all anti-magicked, blinded, poisoned, and eye-rayed once they entered the room and go to the next scene.

[RatElemental]

Well, if the Order gets captured, that'd be an opportunity for them to talk with Serini and Sunny in less combative circumstances. Narratively, that could serve a purpose.

But I agree, if that's where this was going, then this fight is having some twists and turns that aren't quite necessary. Could've just have had them all anti-magicked, blinded, poisoned, and eye-rayed once they entered the room and go to the next scene.

There are some benefits to doing it this way instead of that way. For one, it makes the order look more competent, building them up as the heroes actually capable of standing against Xykon, possibly to be subverted when they actually come to blows with him. Secondly, it could instead be to show Serini as not the unbeatable figure she at first seemed to be, and establish why having her help against Xykon wouldn't tip the scales in the OotS' favor. Thirdly, it's so far given Haley and Elan a chance to shine in combat, which hasn't happened in a while.

[Grey Watcher]

It's an area of effect with a defined shape (conical) and centre. I don't see why aiming and evading would be outside the rules, any more than, say, trying to hit a rapidly-moving flying target with a Cone of Cold.

I don't know if there's strict RAW support for doing that, but it's honestly cool enough that I'd consider it a reasonable houserule. And since OOTS isn't perfect RAW, that's what I'm going to assume is happening.

(If this were 5th Edition, V spending their Reaction to stay out of the cone would be reasonable, I think. But reacting off-turn is a lot more complicated 3e and usually requires feats or class features.)

[WanderingMist]

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third time the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And both those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.

The stakes are lower here, since Serini doesn't actually want to kill them, but that is hardly the point here. This trope of "guys, unlucky saving throws really happen" is fine to use once or twice, but if it's your only tool at your disposal to justify your characters losing every fight at a point where they really could have won if it only weren't for their trash character optimization, I think, is starting to get a little overused for the purposes of storytelling. Does it make the twist of how they end up winning the fight any less cool? No, it doesn't, because the reveals were pretty great. But the "how did we get here" parts before each reveal is starting to get a little too telegraphed for my liking at this point.

So I guess now we sit and watch to see if yet another external force intervenes to save the Order from a fight they could have won yet again, or whether this time they actually really do lose and have to deal with the consequences of that outcome for probably half of the book or something.

Well, I thought we were done with the "pound the Order into a thin paste" song and dance, but well...

This is NOT a game. This is a STORY. This is not "the Order being obliterated", this is an even-handed fight. Fights aren't supposed to be TPKs one way or the other in a story, no matter how often it would happen in a real game. If anything, the Order is doing better than they have any right to be, as they were ambushed by someone who was specifically prepared for and has years of experience on them. Someone, I might add, whose first move was to knock out their two strongest assets but has yet to actually defeat them.

Pretty sure that even if Sunny reestablishes the AMF cone and happens to point it in Bloodfeast's direction -- because Serini and Sunny have no reason to know that he's actually a Polymorphed dinosaur -- he still can't reach high enough to snap at them, or they can just hover higher out of his reach in moments.

Also, what happens if parts of a Polymorphed dinosaur stick out of the AMF cone? Because that will happen as he closes in on Sunny and Serini. Would there be a chimera-like effect as bits extend outside the cone and briefly turn back into tiny lizard form? Because that sounds painful.

I pretty much think that the Order are indeed done here, and Serini is going to get her way and dump them somewhere far away (but plot-relevant) with magically-induced amnesia. It actually might make for a sort of "greatest hits" sort of theme (something not unheard-of in series finales) as the Order trek back through places they've been and people they've interacted with thanks to whatever clues they can deduce, piecing their overarching quest back together on their way to really ending the worldly and cosmic threats in the real dramatic climax of the book.

I think that if Sunny points down again and reveals the dinosaur, it's going to cause a pretty big problem since Serini probably doesn't have the tools to deal with that (or will need to waste what she has prepared and something else will happen, like Roy coming back into play). Well, slight correction, she has one tool to deal with that: Sunny shutting off the AMF, but that comes with its own set of problems.

As for the amnesia thing, doubtful. Mostly since there's just not enough in-comic time for it to be plausible.

[Peelee]

Beholders aren’t in the 3.5 SRD.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm is in the SRD and has been used in the comic.

Enervation (the spell) does not do what you think it does, neither in the comic nor in the SRD.

Also note that scruffy and Elan are not hit with the same spell. Scruffy was hit with charm monster, Elan was (presumably) hit with charm person.

Why are those spells different?

Why’d they change it? I can’t say. I guess they just liked it better that way.

Really, it's nobody's business but the Turks'.

[Dion]

I don't know if there's strict RAW support for doing that, but it's honestly cool enough that I'd consider it a reasonable houserule. And since OOTS isn't perfect RAW, that's what I'm going to assume is happening.

Agreed. I like that V is actively evading the AMF. And I like that an adolescent beholder isn’t exactly designed to be a flying mount, and we’re shown that she’s not doing a very good job of it.

But I don’t think it’s totally 100% being done by the rules.

Oh my!

[RatElemental]

I think that if Sunny points down again and reveals the dinosaur, it's going to cause a pretty big problem since Serini probably doesn't have the tools to deal with that (or will need to waste what she has prepared and something else will happen, like Roy coming back into play). Well, slight correction, she has one tool to deal with that: Sunny shutting off the AMF, but that comes with its own set of problems.

As for the amnesia thing, doubtful. Mostly since there's just not enough in-comic time for it to be plausible.

I highly doubt Sunny will turn the AMF back on, that would bring 5/7th of the order back into play.

[Wintermoot]

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third time the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And both those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.

That is a completely incorrect account of the prior two fights, saying that they were only won due to "an external force intervening". In both fights its the Player Characters instigating the force.

In the Vampire fight, Belkar is brought back to life by two things: A magic item the player of Belkar went out of his way to purchase and his animal companion, an actual class feature of the character.

I would imagine, if this was a real game, the exchanges happening something like this:

Player of Belkar: "Okay, so I am going to the magic shop and try to buy something to protect myself from mind control, like the vampires."

DM: "hmmm okay, they have an amulet that they say will help with that. But when you put it on and activate it, it causes you intense pain."

Player: "oh yeah, what is it an amulet of protection vs evil? They don't actually do anything to someone of evil alignment who wears them."

DM: *irritated* "Well this one does."

Player: "ok, ok. I will go ahead and buy it. Better than nothing."

//several sessions later in the middle of the vampire fight //

DM: "okay, well I guess that's a TPK then, everyone's out right? That just leaves Durkon and your 'trying to talk the vampire out of it' thing you got going on..."

Player: "hang on, my animal companion is still up."

DM: "uh okay, what is your housecat going to do?"

Player: "Mr Scruffy is going to paw at me, trying to wake me up and touch activate the protection from evil amulet"

DM" "hmmm well even if it's activated, it won't wake you up, just protect you from the domination."

Player: "Ah, but remember, you gave me a custom amulet that causes intense pain because I'm evil alignment. Surely that is enough to wake me up."

DM: *realizing he out clevered himself* "uh... yeah I guess so... good thinking"


Meanwhile, in the Tarquin fight, again it was the PLAYER of Elan who instigated the arrival of the outside force by sending to Julio Scoundrel before hand. Again, you can imagine the exchange:

Player of Elan: "Hey before we get started tongith, I had a hell of an idea over the break. So Elan gets Durkon to follow him away from the party for a private conversation"

Player of Roy: "Where are you going?"

Player of Elan: "I can't tell you or it won't come true. Remember, law of narrative."

Player of Roy: *deep sigh*

Player of Elan, Durkon and the DM go into the other room:

Player of Elan: "Okay, so I ask Durkon to cast sending to Julio Scoundrel and here's what I send *hands prepared note to DM*

DM: *reads* *reads again* *looks thoughtfully into the sky* "hmmm... okay.... okay, you don't get a response I guess"

Player of Elan" "no problem. Just giving you some ammunition if you want to use it. hee hee"



As far as "everyone missing their saving throws all the time", Its true that in the OOTS verse, it seems like everyone, PC and NPC, tend to lose on saving throws more often than I would expect in a normal game. But not to the level most people on this forum seem to think.

I think Rich's gaming experiences that he bases his writing on, are probably a lot like mine, based in 2nd and early 3rd/3.5 Edition. In the games I play in, a lot of saving throws actually get missed. Maybe not this many, but certainly more than the TOers on this board would accept. Honestly, if you look at some of the posters on this board, they seem to believe no saving throw should EVER be missed.

The characters in OOTS often have penalties for low scores, especially in wisdom. Elan and Belkar have both been proven to have wisdom penalties and Vaarsuvious would seem to potentially have one as well. So they fail wisdom based saves. Plus they don't have +saving throw gear that optimized players in real life buy for the most part. Still, I would think more than just Durkon would make their save if this was an actual in game fight.

But then this is a story. And the purpose of this actual event is to demonstrate what the beholder's eye rays do to the reader of the comic (most, but not all being familiar with beholders). Its to demonstrate each beam does something different and what the effects are. If they made their saves, it would fail to do that. So narratively, it makes sense.

Its boring if spells fail, interesting if they succeed, so more often they succeed. Makes sense from a story perspective.

I really don't think this is going to end with a defeat of the order, but it is certainly a thrilling fight scene.

Assuming Durkon -did- make his save and isn't stone, he could, for example, use Holy Word, which would take Sunny AND the earth elemental door out of the fight while barely inconveniencing the halfling. Or perhaps Haley can produce a wand. Although if you think that Belkar's animal companion and amulet represents "an external force", then I supposed you'd consider her wands to be one as well.


ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

[RatElemental]

Assuming Durkon -did- make his save and isn't stone, he could, for example, use Holy Word, which would take Sunny AND the earth elemental door out of the fight while barely inconveniencing the halfling.

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's not what an over/under is.

I know what the over / under bet is, thanks. I am using a turn of phrase derived from that general concept.
It's almost like people use words, all of the time (see, an example right there) with slight variations from the literal meaning. I'll find the specific language word that describes that some day, but things like 'the wheel of time' are a similar, non literal, application of both the words 'wheel' and 'time'
Awesome. Literally. (hey, I did it again). I could go on and on.

(Not to pick on you, but as an ex-pro gambler, one of my pet peeves is people using "over/under" when they just mean a simple yes/no question.)

Since I am not using that turn of phrase on a sports bet, let me explain to you a second time (we have had this conversation before). I use it as "likely" (over) and "not likely" (under) as in "that's where the smart money is." Where did I get that usage from? Dialogue in books and articles by a very good sports author who understands sports betting quite well.
Dan Jenkins.
His novels have that turn of phrase crop up with some frequency when someone is making an observation on something being likely or unlikely, and having naught to do with an actual bet.
Likewise his myriad articles on golf - that turn of phrase crops up there also.
That's where I get it, and that's now I use it.

Really, it's nobody's business but the Turks'.
@Peelee: I am guessing a reference about an old song (Istanbul (not Constantinople)) done by the Four Lads: am I close?

[Wintermoot]

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

good point. I forgot about that part of the spell.

Regardless, it was just an example. There are many other ways. I actually wouldn't be shocked if the next comic starts with Durkon finishing his Neutralize Poison on Roy and Roy waking up (because the poison can't have drained any of his stats to 0, so it has to be a sleep poison of some sort, and neutralize along with a firm shake will get him back in the fight.

[Elkad]

In all my years as DM I never once had a beholder turn itself upside-down.

I rule that tactic brilliant!

(And now I wish I had thought of it back when my players were exploring the Winter Mountains Caverns. I put every kind of eye-monster I could find in there, then made the dungeon dark. There's a level of genius in that. I won't say what level.)

I've considered and discarded it multiple times over the last 4 decades. I decided they were literally dangling from a magical flight organ at the top of their body, and going upside-down would be like doing a one-handed handstand.
Of course with a rider to hang off an eyestalk and alter that balance...

But my players gave me a way to use all the eyes anyway one fight. Someone in the party decided it would be a good idea to fly directly over it...

[TheNecrocomicon]

It's not really "those are the only things that can be discussed", so much as "this forum, and the people and posts within it, have a distinctive character to them-- one that only will discuss it in those ways". There's a certain quote about that, which I keep seeing all the time because it's in TheNecrocomicon's signature.

...Welp, I guess I'm nitpicking just by saying this. I have become my own example.

It just seemed too emblematic and too good of an encapsulating summary of this whole forum not to sig it, once I was reasonably certain that the OP was fine with people doing so.

[Algeh]

I think it never has been, at leats for movement. Even when they were still joking about failing perception checks, everyone was already moving at the same time.

Turn-based is a useful simplification for a tabletop game, but it's just terrible when you're telling a story, or worse, showing an action scene.
I mean, imagine how silly a turn-based chase scene would look like in OotS : Haley runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 1 runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 2 runs 60 feets, stops ; Elan runs 60 feet...

And that aerial combat scene is pretty much a chase scene, and would look just as stupid.

When picturing an action scene, initiative and turn-order are the fun-killers.

The only time I can think of when a fight was explicitly turn-based was the "hex fight" in the swamp, but that was as part of a joke.

[B. Pseudonym]

ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

Yeah, that sounds right. Elan's doing that thing he did when Pastor Expiration and co. dominated him, where he calmly proposes hilariously stupid courses of action.

Interesting question about beam #8. At first, I thought it would basically be an academic distinction, because
1. I'm used to 5e, where Finger of Death, Disintegrate, and the equivalent of Cause Serious Wounds are all fairly similar "the beholder shoots an eye ray at you, save or take a bunch of damage" type effects, with most of the differences coming into play when you get knocked unconscious by one, and
2. I don't think Sunny is going to kill anyone in this fight.

3.5 Finger of Death, however, appears to be a much scarier version of Disintegrate, where a failed save just kills you automatically. Even if nobody dies from it right off the bat, knowing that the beholder can do that would probably change the Order's approach to this fight quite a bit.

[PattThe]

It just seemed too emblematic and too good of an encapsulating summary of this whole forum not to sig it, once I was reasonably certain that the OP was fine with people doing so.

Speaking of signatures, nice.


Is anyone else thinking that the story is going to cut away to team evil next comic? I mean, the best way to raise the tension even further would to be to cut to an isolated Bloodwing as Team Evil makes miraculous progress. Wouldn't the worst case scenario (long dark night of the soul, to use a Save The Cat storytelling term) be that Senri, Sunny, and the order all exhaust themselves as we learn that Xykon is closing in at full power?

Edit: I am now convinced that Xykon is going to delete Senri in a few comics.

[Fyraltari]

Is anyone else thinking that the story is going to cut away to team evil next comic?

I don't think so. Usually, this comic cuts away at the last panel of a page rather than between pages. Also it generally doesn't interrupt fight scenes like that.

I mean, the best way to raise the tension even further would to be to cut to an isolated Bloodwing as Team Evil makes miraculous progress. Wouldn't the worst case scenario (long dark night of the soul, to use a Save The Cat storytelling term) be that Senri, Sunny, and the order all exhaust themselves as we learn that Xykon is closing in at full power?

I guess so, but "worst case scenario" does not always translate to "best storytelling path".
Also:

Bloodwing

We've already had an evil twin, we don't need one for Blackwing too.

Edit: I am now convinced that Xykon is going to delete Senri in a few comics.

Doubt it, my guess would be that Serini is going to give the Order more backstory on what exactly went down with the Order of the Scribble (and possibly the World-Within-The-World). She also needs to free the paladins, eventually.

[Samoja1]

Ok, a question, how does Serini's memory elixir thingimajig work? I am assuming she needs to plant false memories of some sort to keep the order out. Here's the big question, does it work somewhat like M&B memory flasher where you actively create false memories? Because if that's true Serini would probably tell the order they won, killed Xykon and Redcloak and saved the world, she does not know they need Redcloak alive and given the way she thinks about the order probably wouldn't assume they would be trying to take prisoners. So it's possible Serini wins but the Order realizes something is wrong because Serini implanted memories inconsistent with what they would have done.

[Fyraltari]

Ok, a question, how does Serini's memory elixir thingimajig work? I am assuming she needs to plant false memories of some sort to keep the order out. Here's the big question, does it work somewhat like M&B memory flasher where you actively create false memories? Because if that's true Serini would probably tell the order they won, killed Xykon and Redcloak and saved the world, she does not know they need Redcloak alive and given the way she thinks about the order probably wouldn't assume they would be trying to take prisoners. So it's possible Serini wins but the Order realizes something is wrong because Serini implanted memories inconsistent with what they would have done.

When I dope you full of it, you'll forget ever seeing me or this place, and you'll report to your boss that you looked high and low and couldn't find anything.

0123456789

[Living Oxymoron]

ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.

Think about it: he behaves and speaks exactly what Sunny wishes him to do/say. If this was a Suggestion, the spell would have some... suggestion verbalized along with the casting, in that Jedi way we all know (if someone helps me in finding some fuel to this argument in the strips, if it exists, I would appreciate). As seen in the description of the spell:

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

If this was a Charm Person/Charm Monster effect, in the first time Elan was enchanted while the party was resting and waiting for Xykon, Sunny would need to appear before him to give him some instruction (how do you become friendly to someone/something you aren't seeing anyway?!):

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do.

That left us with the domination effect, which, as we have already seen in the past, could even make Elan make arguments in favor of the dominant side. Again, I remind you that through Sunny's enchantment, he is doing and behaving exactly like Sunny wishes him to be, implying that (she?) can give direct instructions to Elan without needing to speak:

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here”, “Go there”, “Fight” and “Stand still”. You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.

[Fyraltari]

Think about it: he behaves and speaks exactly what Sunny wishes him to do/say. If this was a Suggestion, the spell would have some... suggestion verbalized along with the casting, in that Jedi way we all know (if someone helps me in finding some fuel to this argument in the strips, if it exists, I would appreciate).

Like this? (Fifth-to-last panel.)

[Yendor]

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.

Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

Would that work if Sunny isn't Evil?

[Yendor]

Would that work if Sunny isn't Evil?

Yes. The protection from mental control works regardless of alignment.

[Living Oxymoron]

Like this? (Fifth-to-last panel.)

That will do, thank you very much.

Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

But the party knows about his item? Belkar was very low-profile when he bought the clasp, and I don't know if the party was in condition to understand what happened when he used it back then against the vampires.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. The protection from mental control works regardless of alignment.

How odd.
Thanks.

That will do, thank you very much.

You're welcome.

But the party knows about his item? Belkar was very low-profile when he bought the clasp, and I don't know if the party was in condition to understand what happened when he used it back then against the vampires.

They know he's got a Protection from Mind Whammy or Whatever (panel 4).

[TuringTest]

I think it never has been, at leats for movement. Even when they were still joking about failing perception checks, everyone was already moving at the same time.

We've definitely seen round-based movement before. Of course it was for making fun of the rules, back then when it was common.

Turn-based is a useful simplification for a tabletop game, but it's just terrible when you're telling a story, or worse, showing an action scene.
I mean, imagine how silly a turn-based chase scene would look like in OotS : Haley runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 1 runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 2 runs 60 feets, stops ; Elan runs 60 feet...

Agreed. But it does't prevent interpreting PC actions as taking place simultaneously, even though they are declared one after another and happen in the same combat round. Narratively it would be the same unless one character takes two actions while someone other takes just one, without a rules explanation of how two actions can happen in the same round.

[RatElemental]

We've definitely seen round-based movement before. Of course it was for making fun of the rules, back then when it was common.

This also comes to mind. This time it seems to be to make fun of one trick pony optimizers. This probably pre-dated the advent of ubercharging though.

[danielxcutter]

This also comes to mind. This time it seems to be to make fun of one trick pony optimizers. This probably pre-dated the advent of ubercharging though.

Ubercharging is arguably even easier to counter than that. Most characters don’t have ranks in Balance. Boom, Grease.

[RatElemental]

Ubercharging is arguably even easier to counter than that. Most characters don’t have ranks in Balance. Boom, Grease.

One of the most common ways to ubercharge is to gain the ability to fly and then bull rush your enemies into the ground to activate dungeoncrasher, instead of needing to have some walls around. Can't really slip if you never touch the ground after all.