OOTS #1241 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

One of the most common ways to ubercharge is to gain the ability to fly and then bull rush your enemies into the ground to activate dungeoncrasher, instead of needing to have some walls around. Can't really slip if you never touch the ground after all.

True, but that’s more thought than what I hear most uberchargers players put into tactics. :v

Oh, there’s also things like Counter Charge and Cometary Collision.

[Wintermoot]

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.

To be honest, when we've seen Charm Person effects in the comic before, Rich treats them more like I've seen DMs treat dominate instead of Charm. So, given that precedent, I'm willing to interpret this as Charm person effects.

Charm is a problematic spell for different DMs adjudicating it differently. The "charmee" is supposed to treat the "charmer" like a close trusted friend while not being forced to do anything outside of their character.

Some players, when charmed, use that as an excuse to try everything to wiggle out of the spirit of the spell. Some DMS, too, when faced with the Players using it. In some campaigns I've been in, its not worth even trying to use because of how you know it will be adjudicated (like illusions and wish spells often are)

So in this case, Elan and Mr. Scruffy now think of Sunny as a close personal friend. In Elan's case, Sunny is now as good of a friend as the rest of the Order. So its in his personality to try and stop the fight and talk this out. So I have no problem with that.

-IF- it was a charm person that caused him to run after Lutey and lead the party into the trap, I -do- have a problem with that. Because, how I adjudicate Charm Person, Sunny would've had to ask him as a friend to go after Lutey and that didn't happen. So that one was absolutely more like a dominate effect.

But it's Rich's story, Rich's world and in Rich's world he adjudicates Charm Person to be more powerful than I do. *shrug* More power to him. It's a spell that needs DM interpretation

I also have a problem with Mr. Scruffy attacking Belkar. So, for my own sanity, I choose to interpret it as Mr Scruffy trying to get Belkar to stop fighting his other close friend.

[Quizatzhaderac]

We've already had an evil twin, we don't need one for Blackwing too.

Actually, we already have an evil opposite for Blackwing: Qarr

Oh, there’s also things like Counter Charge and Cometary Collision.

Not to be confused with the dashing swordsman ability "commentary collision".

[KorvinStarmast]

3.5 Finger of Death, however, appears to be a much scarier version of Disintegrate, where a failed save just kills you automatically. Even if nobody dies from it right off the bat, knowing that the beholder can do that would probably change the Order's approach to this fight quite a bit.

Original D&D Finger of Death, cast by an Evil High Priest, was 'you are dead unless you make your save." Looks like 3.5 kept that "save or die" theme.

Spoiler: why I remember this so vividly

Show

My thief didn't save , and died. I ended up rolling up my first druid as a result.

[Fyraltari]

Actually, we already have an evil opposite for Blackwing: Qarr

Hence "evil twin".

[arimareiji]

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

Very glad to see this post. (^_^)b

Hoping it's a solid sign that we're past the days of "Serini is an evil coward who is evilly trying to help Xykon achieve evil world domination. Because she's so evil. And cowardly." (^_^)°

[Ave]

I see the Order's saving throws remain slaves to the plotline . . .

Reverse plot armor for the loss.

[Fanatic]

My theory is resting upon Rich choosing to use a beholder with eight different eyebeams so he can show everyone suffering a different effect as part of the gag instead of one with double-charm. It’s already a non-standard beholder (they generally have ten small eyes, and per SRD Sunny shouldn’t have been able to aim more than three of them at the folks on the ground), so the idea that he might toss in a non-standard enervation effect on Elan, one based on the meaning of the word rather than the 3.5e or 5e effect, should perhaps not be as shocking as it seems to be.

If Elan continues to act tired and unmotivated in the next strip that will support my theory. If he performs an action a charmed person might perform it will support yours. Right now there’s insufficient evidence to make a call, so I don’t see much point in further debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The entire cast is non-standard, as each of them only has 3 fingers on each hand. The 8 eye-stalk beholder merely fits in with OoTS world standard.

It's not an enervate ability, plain and simple. Enervate in D&D terms is a very specific magical effect, which Elan is not exhibiting. (Even if you go through the mental gymnastics of assuming a 5e beholder here, it still doesn't change the specifics of that magical effect).

[jere7my]

{scrubbed}

[Ghosty]

Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!

See what you did there, I have. (I'm still laughing.)

I took a 3 month hiatus to watch a 15th-ish average level party get face-rolled by a juvenile Beholder. And the Epic thrower of Darts of PC Remover. Hilarious.

I'm out. See you in the Fall.

EDIT: Oh, and what jere7my said at the end of his post, immediately upthread. (Didn't see it until I posted.)

[subtledoctor]

I find it bonkers that so many people think Elan was hit by a Charm effect, rather than what it obviously was, some variant of Emotion: Despair.

EDIT - and the fact that Mr. Scruffy is attacking Belkar marks that as more Domination than Charm.

[RatElemental]

I find it bonkers that so many people think Elan was hit by a Charm effect, rather than what it obviously was, some variant of Emotion: Despair.

Clearly it was finger of death, targeted at his will to fight.

[F.Harr]

Leave it to Belkar to correctly identify the real issue here. :)

Props to Toormuck for a good plan B!

[B. Pseudonym]

Original D&D Finger of Death, cast by an Evil High Priest, was 'you are dead unless you make your save." Looks like 3.5 kept that "save or die" theme.

Spoiler: why I remember this so vividly

Show

My thief didn't save , and died. I ended up rolling up my first druid as a result.

Maybe it's for the best that they (mostly) removed save-or-die effects in later editions.

Rest in peace.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe it's for the best that they (mostly) removed save-or-die effects in later editions.

I admit that for the 5e versions they seem to be nerfed, but our warlock did die to Power Word Kill from a Lich. (Granted, he'd lost some HP already before the spell hit him). Paladin revivified him. (And didn't have to, my bard could have raised him but I wasn't there for the session; one of the others was running my bard).

[pendell]

I am really enjoying Sunny, even though (he? she?) is currently an antagonist. This points to Rich's great strength: His ability to create interesting and engaging side characters. Grayview and the bugbear hunter, Sunny, all are delightful characters whom I'm glad we'll be able to see more of.

I wouldn't write the OOTS off just yet. Rich loves to make thing topsy-turvy between one panel and the next. In one panel it looks like team A has won, then it gets reversed in the next.

I will concede that it is likely Serini and Sunny will win this one and take the order prisoner, but it's not certain JUST yet. For one thing, Durkon is actively participating in the fight instead of passively healing only, which is what he did when they faced Miko.

ETA: Also, blaming V's failure on hir verbosity is unfair. Talking is a free action in OOTS. If this were not so Roy would have been killed six or seven times by now instead of only once.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The entire cast is non-standard, as each of them only has 3 fingers on each hand.

I see nothing in SRD to contradict humans having three fingers.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, blaming V's failure on hir verbosity is unfair. Talking is a free action in OOTS. If this were not so Roy would have been killed six or seven times by now instead of only once.

Concur, or as Thog might have observed "Talkie man talkie too much!"

I see nothing in SRD to contradict humans having three fingers.

I am trying to parley this into a joke about slight of hand, but I'm all thumbs on the keyboard just now.

[bunsen_h]

I see nothing in SRD to contradict humans having three fingers.

What about the Hand of Vecna?

[DavidSh]

To me it looks like Mr. Scruffy is a victim of Confusion, though that is not a known Beholder ability.

[Fanatic]

I see nothing in SRD to contradict humans having three fingers.

That is why all of my characters have 8 when I play. No rules against it.

[bunsen_h]

That is why all of my characters have 8 when I play. No rules against it.

Does that tally include thumbs?

[Dion]

Does that tally include thumbs?

It’s all thumbs.

[Yanisa]

It’s all thumbs.

Relevant

Spoiler: Picture

Show

[Peelee]

Relevant

Spoiler: Picture

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Thanks. I hate it.

[skim172]

That is why all of my characters have 8 when I play. No rules against it.

In a session, does that actually lend an advantage?

I'm trying to think of circumstances where an excess of fingers would be strategically advantageous. Aside from playing an instrument or plugging more than ten holes in a leaking dike.

Can you cast Finger of Death from each finger simultaneously?

[nespunkt]

An eight-finger discount must surely be higher than a five-finger one!

[facw]

The 8 eye-stalk beholder merely fits in with OoTS world standard.

FWIW, the ones in AMfES (which has featured the Order, so we can assume these are at least creatures that might exist in stickworld) generally have 10 stalks, so Sunny (and the one from 32 if that's a different creature) could be standard for stickworld, or maybe there are bunches 10 stalked Tyrants floating around that we haven't seen in-comic.
10: Eye Tyrant, Fire Eye Tyrant, Eye Tyrant Mage, Gas Spore, Die Tyrant, Elder Eye Tryant, Death Kiss (10 mouth stalks), Gouger
6: Lesser Eye Tyrant, Eye Director
4: Spectator, Eyeball

[locksmith of lo]

In a session, does that actually lend an advantage?

I'm trying to think of circumstances where an excess of fingers would be strategically advantageous. Aside from playing an instrument or plugging more than ten holes in a leaking dike.

Can you cast Finger of Death from each finger simultaneously?

in the book "the magicians" their magic was primarily done with intricate finger positions. the villain of the book had acquired 8 fingers or more per hand that bent in improbable/impossible ways. that made him capable of doing magic that no human was capable of doing.

[bunsen_h]

in the book "the magicians" their magic was primarily done with intricate finger positions. the villain of the book had acquired 8 fingers or more per hand that bent in improbable/impossible ways. that made him capable of doing magic that no human was capable of doing.

Sounds interesting. But I'm finding several books with that title; who's the author of that one?