Pure Conquest Paladin, or dip Undead Warlock?

[DarknessEternal]

I second that. This is actually the real question here. Level 13 for Conquest is kind of unavoidable.

Why do you think 13 level of Conquest Paladin is at all necessary exactly?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Wrathful Smite also has two big advantages over Cause Fear if they fail the initial WIS Saving Throw (common to both).

1. Wrathful Smite makes them take an action to get a chance to break out while with Cause Fear they get a saving throw automatically at the end of their turn. Wrathful Smite therefore has a much greater impact on their action economy.

2. If they choose to use their action to attempt to break Wrathful Smite it makes them do a Wisdom Ability Check not a Saving Throw - so no bonuses to the roll, it doesn't matter if they have a friendly Paladin nearby or Proficiency in the saving throw and because they're Frightened they have disadvantage on the roll. That doesn't apply to Cause Fear because Frightened adversely affects Ability Checks not Saving Throws, so this can really extend the effect of Wrathful Smite.


So Wrathful Smite actually has some pretty big advantages over Cause Fear when you dig below the surface.

Edit to fix Speeling. :)

3. It's also a bonus action to cast, so the action economy favors it even more. Especially once you hit 5th level and have Extra Attack.

[Feanor5]

What are other good Fear effects synergizing with Conquest other than Conquering Presence, Dragon Fear and Fear?

Here is an updated list.

Racial abilities

• Dragon Fear (AoE, one minute)
• Leonin Daunting Roar (AoE, one turn)
• Aasimar Necrotic Shroud (AoE, one turn)

Warlock abilities

• ArchFey Lock, Fey Presence (AoE, one turn)
• Undead Lock, Form of Dread (one creature, one turn)

Martial Classes

• Fighter Battlemaster, Menacing Attack (one creature, one turn)
• Conquest Paladin, Conquering Presence (AoE, one minute)

Spells

• 1st level Cause fear, (one creature/level, one minute)
• 1st level Wrathful Smite,(one creature, one minute)
• 2nd level Phantasmal Force, (one creature, one minute) (frightened not specifically mentioned)
• 3rd level Fear, (AoE, one minute)
• 4th level Phantasmal Killer, (one creature, one minute)
• 6th level Eyebite, (one creature, one minute)
• 7th level Symbol, (AoE, one minute)
• 8th level Antipathy/Sympathy, ((AoE, 10 days!))
• 8th level Illusory Dragon, (AoE, one minute)
• 9th level Weird, (AoE, one minute)

It seems to me that the strongest effects (AoE with long duration) here are Dragon Fear as a racial feat, Conquering Presence as a subclass ability and Fear as a spell. I believe Wrathful Smite deserves an honorable mention due to the WIS check used to resist it.

Illusion spells such as Phantasmal Force are available to the Genie Lock (and partly to Fey, GOO, Undead) as well as Eyebite. Symbol and Antipathy/Sympathy are available to Bards, but are such high level that are not reachable for Paladins even when multiclassing.

A Conquest Paladin already has access to the strongest of the above (depending on race of course). The only things that could be gained by multiclassing would be the two Warlock abilities and lower level spells, or the Battlemaster maneuver. YMMV with the illusion spells, but if Phantasmal Force works at your table, this can be an almost automatic kill-switch for even the most powerful creatures.

I have to say that a Conqueror with access to Antipathy/Sympathy would be a game breaking thing. I guess this is the reason why Aura of Conquest comes at level 7.

Please let me know if I missed something here!

[Feanor5]

Why do you think 13 level of Conquest Paladin is at all necessary exactly?

Because at level 13 you get access to 4th level spells, and not to put too fine a point on it, Find Greater Steed is a 4th level spell.

The spell gives you on-demand access to: a griffon, a pegasus, a peryton, a dire wolf, a rhinoceros, or a saber-toothed tiger.

These are mounts with amazing abilities, many have flight, they do not need to be controlled in battle, meaning they can attack (with multi-attack) in parallel to you, and the best part is that all your "self" range spells such as smites, Armor of Agathys, apply to them as well.

Hence the reference to the Nazgul, by Unoriginal.

As if that were not enough, please see Mounted Combatant, for permanent advantage shenanigans.

You can of course go Bard after level 7, which could give you up to 13 levels Bard and level 7 spells in total, including access to the Paladin specific spells such as Find Greater Steed. However, in this case you get your Pegasus at level 17 (Bard Magical Secrets), also you would get Fear at level 12.

[Xoronis]

Undead Lock, Form of Dread (AoE, one turn)

This is actually single target, once per turn for a minute, not AoE, one turn.

[Feanor5]

This is actually single target, once per turn for a minute, not AoE, one turn.

THX, fixed it!

[arnin77]

I’d say you don’t need to multiclass… I play a conquest Paladin at level 11 currently.

As far as Undead Warlock goes, it seems like the main draw is getting another fear option, which is nice; but I wouldn’t say necessary. The conquest Paladin has its channel divinity, wrathful smite and the fear spell, but once you get up in higher levels there are more creatures immune to it. I don’t use my channel divinity much anymore (but guided strike is nice for a forced smite)

Another ability to look at with undead warlock is you gaining frightened immunity during the minute - which the Paladin gets at level 10 all the time. And maxed charisma at level 6 adds to your save for lower levels.

The thing I like about undead warlock, upon first look; is the temp HPs. I love having lots of HPs as a front liner. You can gain this as a Paladin though, with the aid spell or with the inspiring leader feat and you have your lay on hands ability too. You’d also have a very high AC and wouldn’t get hit as much if you went with sword and board.

You can also take the blessed warrior option, if it’s allowed; to gain a Ranged cantrip (sacred flame or toll the dead) if you’re thinking about eldritch blast…

So I would say you don’t need to multiclass, but if you want to then that’s another story. 5e seems to be built to accommodate the flavour as much as the mechanics…. So in my humble opinion, neither choice is “wrong”.

[Andrwrwn]

I'm currently a level 6 Conquest paladin and planning to take the Undead warlock dip for two levels at 10/11. The way I look at it, you need a buff to concentration saves to be an effective lockdown tank and taking Eldritch Mind as one of your invocations essentially buys back the ASI that you would otherwise have had to spend on Resilient Con or Warcaster.