Caster Level Check, Dispel Check, used interchangably?

[Crow]

I have been working on a counterspelling gish for a while now and am having some trouble with a certain feat, Elven Spell Lore.

In the Elven Spell Lore short description, it says it gives you +2 on "dispel checks", and then in the paragragh listing says it gives a +2 bonus to "caster level checks" for dispelling.

Is a caster level check the same thing as a dispel check? Is a dispel check more accurately described as "A caster level check for dispelling"? Do they just use the terms interchangably, or are they two different checks?

[Jasdoif]

They're different checks, although their base formulae are quite similar. A bonus on caster level checks doesn't apply to dispel checks, or vice versa.

[Crow]

So then Elven Spell Lore doesn't really help on dispel checks, but would help on checks to overcome spell resistance?

Can we get some more opinions on this one?

[Jasdoif]

So then Elven Spell Lore doesn't really help on dispel checks, but would help on checks to overcome spell resistance?

Have I mentioned (recently) that PHBII has some really bad text for its feats? I would assume the long text is a typo, and is supposed to mean a +2 bonus on dispel checks. After all, dispel magic type spells aren't subject to SR, they would have no general need for a bonus on caster level checks.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not sure where you would find the rules to declare a difference between them, but if it were my game I would rule that they're the same thing. A caster level check is d20+caster level to try and beat a DC, a dispel check is d20+caster level to try and beat a DC. The only thing that differentiates the two is that Dispel Magic puts a cap on the (+caster level) part of it.

Ah.. here's the SRD on Caster Level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

It appears a 'dispel check' is not exactly the same as a 'caster level check', but anything that applies to a 'caster level check' also applies to a 'dispel check'. The reverse is not necessarily true, which is probably the reason for the distinction; that allows them to craft feats that specifically enhance dispel checks.

[Kaelik]

Dispel checks are Caster level checks. Elven Spell Lore would help with that.

[Jasdoif]

It appears a 'dispel check' is not exactly the same as a 'caster level check', but anything that applies to a 'caster level check' also applies to a 'dispel check'.

No...it says effects that increase your caster level apply to bonus caster level checks and dispel checks (which is normal, since dispel checks do involve your caster level). Nothing there says that bonuses on caster level checks apply to dispel checks.

[Crow]

Except the feat specifically calls the check for Dispel Magic, and Greater Dispel Magic a caster level check.

I have emailed customer service, so we will see if they have an opinion on the matter for "official" clarification.

[Jasdoif]

Except the feat specifically calls the check for Dispel Magic, and Greater Dispel Magic a caster level check.

Unless the feat explicitly says it makes the dispel check into a caster level check, or if those spells are updated in such a fashion in PHBII and I didn't see it (entirely possible, I haven't read through the spells section), the feat's text is wrong. The PHB is the primary source, and all that.

[Crow]

As much as it pains me to do so, here is the ruling from customer service (we'll leave out their past track record), which according to wizards is "official".

Ivan,

Thank's for writing in! Dispel Checks are a type of Caster Level check. This is a case of "all trucks are automobiles, but not all automobiles are trucks". For example: Overcoming Spell Resistance is a caster level check and uses the Caster Level Check mechanics. Dispelling is also a Caster Level Check, but if you had a feat that gave you a +1 bonus to overcoming Spell Resistance, it would not effect a Caster Level Check to dispel an active effect.

By this logic, the entry for the feat in question (Elven Spell Lore) states in the short description "...a +2 bonus on dispel checks" and in the long description "... a +2 bonus on caster level checks for dispelling". The short and long description say the same thing, you are gaining a +2 bonus to the caster level check you make when you are dispelling within the bounds of the feat.

I hope this clears up any confusion on the feat entry.

Please let me know if you have any further question!

Interesting. Opinions?

[Curmudgeon]

The important difference is that the caster level for a Dispel Magic check maxes out at 10, whereas a bonus to your dispel check is independent of the caster level. This matters greatly for things like the Inquisition domain's granted power, which grants a +4 bonus to dispel checks.

[Crow]

The important difference for a dispeller is that with Arcane Mastery, they can now take 10 on the dispel check. Combine that with Inquisition and Elven Spell Lore and you can dispel anything within 5 caster levels of you.