A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Athear View Post
    another question, where are the rules for wand storing weapons found in 3.5?
    Dungeonscape has wand chambers if I recall correctly. If I recall incorrectly, I am sure someone will correct me shortly.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    There are some arguments that you can't add the same modifier to the same things more than once (Cha to hit, in this case); other arguments are that so long as the sources have different names and are untyped, then they can stack.

    I've seen some lengthy debates on the matter, and I don't think either argument is airtight.
    Unless the ability says it gives you a bonus, it doesn't give you a bonus. It's presumptuous to think the effects give you a bonus instead of changing the application of the bonus like other feats similar to shield ward.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Unless the ability says it gives you a bonus, it doesn't give you a bonus. It's presumptuous to think the effects give you a bonus instead of changing the application of the bonus like other feats similar to shield ward.
    This statement... confuses me greatly. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying initially? I heartily agree that only things that say they give you a bonus, give you a bonus?

    What I think you were saying is that you can never get X Stat to Y bonus twice, even if they are from completely different sources? If so, then I have seen arguments for, and against, this reading.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    This statement... confuses me greatly. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying initially? I heartily agree that only things that say they give you a bonus, give you a bonus?

    What I think you were saying is that you can never get X Stat to Y bonus twice, even if they are from completely different sources? If so, then I have seen arguments for, and against, this reading.
    What I am saying is that smite doesn't give you a charisma bonus to attack rolls. All it does is let you apply something you already have to something else it normally wouldn't. Your charisma score is what gives you your charisma bonus. Because of this, there is nothing to stack in the first place. Monk AC and Swordsage AC don't stack not because they have the same bonus, but because they do the exact same thing. If they stacked it would be like saying weapon finesse gives light thrown weapons double dex bonus to attack on ranged attacks. In all of these cases none of the effects give you a bonus. Take a look at brutal throw. It uses the the same phrasing as smite:

    She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll
    You can add your Strength modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to attack rolls with thrown weapons.
    Brutal throw doesn't specify that it only applies to ranged attacks, nor does it clarify whether "thrown" applies to the action or the weapon category. Even still it's quite clear that it isn't adding an additional strength bonus to one you already have.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-09-20 at 09:10 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    I think I get your point, but honestly, I've never seen someone word it in quite that way before.

    In any case, I'm having a rough day at work, so I'm not really interested in debating the RAW of this. You are welcome to your POV.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Ordained Champion has spontaneous war domain, which makes Holy Warrior [Reserve] nearly always available.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Ordained Champion has spontaneous war domain, which makes Holy Warrior [Reserve] nearly always available.
    Domain Spontaneity and the war domain would also make that work.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    What I am saying is that smite doesn't give you a charisma bonus to attack rolls. All it does is let you apply something you already have to something else it normally wouldn't. Your charisma score is what gives you your charisma bonus. Because of this, there is nothing to stack in the first place. Monk AC and Swordsage AC don't stack not because they have the same bonus, but because they do the exact same thing.
    So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?


    Or perhaps, are you saying you shouldn't stake a vampire because they are obviously undead and "everybody knows" undead are destroyed at 0 HP, right?

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragoon View Post
    So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?


    Or perhaps, are you saying you shouldn't stake a vampire because they are obviously undead and "everybody knows" undead are destroyed at 0 HP, right?
    What are you arguing? Swordsage AC Bonus special ability =/= Monk AC bonus special ability. Vampires are given a specific exception to being destroyed at 0 HP under Slaying a Vampire. Specific rules trump general rules.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragoon View Post
    So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?
    If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

    If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

    If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.
    This is correct. Though, I should say that my swordsage and monk example is mistaken because the swordsage AC bonus only works while wearing light armor and a monk unarmored. They would never overlap in the first place.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    One interesting thing to note is that the Ninja, whose AC bonus works exactly like the monk's, has an explicit provision that keeps it from stacking with the Monk's. So at least somebody doing design seemed to have thought that they probably would stack and put in words to keep it from happening.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Smite and clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

    If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.

    Monk is "X + (Y/Z)" though. As is (CA) Ninja for that matter. Even in the "well, ToB is supposed to replace all that" you still have Shadow Sun Ninja referencing monk levels. (Also, kind of odd to have Warblades with no bonus feats because there are no Fighters and thus no fighter bonus feats)



    On that note Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest have other differences besides "This is named Stone Warden"


    Power Attack is a feat, and feats generally can't be taken again.

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