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    Default Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Spinning off from the An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time thread because while the debate has stayed very civil thus far, it's ultimately only tangential to the purpose of that thread and is taking up quite a lot of space there.

    This discussion will involve small to serious spoilers for the series, so outside of this first post (where I'll be using spoiler bars for the sake of condensing material into easy reading) don't expect to be able to read safely. You have been warned!

    Spoiler: The Problem
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    The problem is twofold.

    First, there is only one non-cis character in the series, a minor character by the name of Aran'gar. He is evil, without any redeeming qualities that I can recall, and also only trans as an explicit perversion of nature by the setting's Satan equivalent, Shai-Tan, AKA The Dark One. That could (conceivably) be made workable, using his forced trans-gender status to show the misery and frustration that actual trans-gender people feel at their gender dysphoria and turning it into a sympathetic trait, except for the fact that as the only example non-cis person it comes across more as a statement that such people are not part of the natural order and/or are evil.

    Which leads to the second half of the problem: adding non-cis people to the universe would seriously undermine the worldbuilding around the gender-linked powers present in the setting. When all men who can channel are driven violently insane, and all women who can channel can sense whether another woman can channel, it strains credulity to imagine that for thousands of years no one noticed, e.g., a trans man who couldn't be sensed and went destructively insane despite having a female body. And the status quo of gender relations and politics in the setting kinda depends on the consistency and predictability of how channeling relates to sex. Additionally, the setting runs on reincarnation, and it appears that people are without fail reincarnated into a body of their original gender (barring the sole exception above), which can be seen because they cycle and flicker through all the bodies they've had when present as not-yet-reincarnated souls.

    The second half implies a world where non-cis people either can't ever wield magic/be heroes or (more likely) simply don't exist, which is exclusionary and also reminiscent of IRL prejudiced arguments that non-cis people are imagining their gender dysphoria. The implication becomes truly unfortunate when paired with the one trans character we do get, though, suggesting that non-cis people are perversions of the natural order. This flies in the face of the otherwise progressive and quite good series themes of who you are on the inside being what matters (not gender or magic or age or nationality or any of that), the importance of coming together and treating each other as actual people in order to work together to accomplish great things, and that ultimately the most important thing is the freedom to choose who you are and what you do. And in light of the upcoming adaptation of TWoT to TV show format, I think it's worth discussing possible solutions to this problem.


    Spoiler: My Proposed Solution (Minimalist)
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    One of the major pushbacks that shows up whenever this topic comes up is that people want to see The Wheel of Time, not some new work that just borrows heavily from it while changing fundamental parts. In light of that, my proposed solution is designed to eliminate the unfortunate implication with the bare minimum of changes:

    1a. Access to the One Power should be sex-linked instead of gender-linked. This carries its own potential unfortunate implication (see below), but opens the door for nonbinary, genderfluid, trans, etc. people to access the Source despite not falling into the binary genders it currently represents. Even if the show chooses not to expand on this with non-cis characters, it's now at least possible for them to exist without undermining the worldbuilding. It helps that the One Power works extremely well as a metaphor for traditional gender roles, one that the series goes out of its way to show is viewed as far more important than it actually is.

    1b. What effect does this have on the story? As it stands, this literally only affects Aran'gar, a character so minor that most people in the other thread couldn't remember his name (I had to look it up for this thread). After being put in a female body, Aran'gar would need to either now be channeling the female half of the power, Sai'dar, or would need to be compared to actual trans people in the setting to show that he is an explicit exception to the rule. Or you could cut this character after his initial death; many fans probably wouldn't even notice.

    2a. Souls shouldn't be locked into a single sex and/or gender for each reincarnation. Fairly self-explanatory; this allows for people to be born whose souls don't match their body, i.e. people who are non-cis.

    2b. What effect does this have on the story? This will require a slight change to the visual effects of the not-yet-reincarnated heroes' souls. They already cycle/flicker through their past bodies; just make some of those bodies be of the opposite sex/androgynous. This will affect 4-5, maybe six, scenes across the entire thirteen book series. If they talk about reincarnation (which happens maybe once or twice, as part of those scenes), you could also switch to gender neutral pronouns.

    And that's it! Changes to one minor character, and momentary special effects in a handful of minor scenes. That's all it would take to make the worldbuilding inclusive of non-cis people, and from there the showrunners could expand on it or just leave it at that.


    Spoiler: Flaw in my solution
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    Thank you to ecarden for laying this out:
    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I don't think it's that easy. I think if you do that, you'll find that folks are deeply (and not necessarily wrongly) offended by the notion that in this universe it works that way.

    Spoiler: Because
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    If you treat it as sex-linked you are going to upset folks who view that as suggesting that trans people aren't 'really' the destination gender. After all, the universe as a whole is flat out saying that no matter how much you're a transwoman, you can't access the power that 'real' women can.
    Spoiler: My response
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    That's... a fair point, but I do think it's looking at it in a negative light.

    The way I view it, being unable to access Sai'dar makes you no less a "real woman" than not having two X chromosomes, or not having ovaries, or any other difference you were born with.

    And this view has the advantage of fitting well with the text. A repeatedly emphasized theme in the series is that being able to channel (and what you channel) is not nearly as important as who you are as a person. Only one of the ta'veren can channel, and while Rand is probably the most important of them, channeling doesn't even play a role in the Final Battle. Rand mocks Taim for being over-reliant on on the Source, and often trounces his opponents without using it at all. Moraine isn't diminished by losing some of her power. Thom singlehandedly kills like twelve Black Ajah in the Final Battle by outsmarting them one at a time.

    It also plays nicely with one of the other major themes, that being the freedom to choose who and what you are.

    But even though my proposed solution does have a possible negative implication, I still think it's a real and significant step up from the implication as the work currently stands, which is that non-cis people either don't exist or are locked out of channeling by not fitting into the mold (except as the work of actual Satan).



    So. What do people think? In particular I'd like to know if others would interpret my solution in the way laid out in the Flaw section, but I'm also very interested in hearing other people's thoughts, criticisms, and solutions of their own.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Just a heads up, there was a 25 page thread last year about this very subject matter. Old thread past necro date, so it is good to have a new thread, just pointing out lots of people talked about this long ago...

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    You realize that there is no evidence for either the advanced medicine or the magic required to take a person who was born anatomically X and make them anatomically Y in the setting, right? Certainly not post-Age of Legends, anyways...
    Spoiler
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    And, no, the act of an entity which for all practical purposes is a deity does not count as evidence that anything else in the setting can do that - particularly given that the 'transformation' is literally reincarnation.

    So if you're looking for a reason why trans people in the sense of people who were born anatomically X but have become anatomically Y don't exist within the setting, the obvious answer is that the capability to perform that transformation doesn't exist within the setting, at the very least not in any time vaguely close to the 'present day' except in the crude form of castration.

    Also, I would suggest that the true solution to this 'problem' is to change how you think, because your description of the 'problem' is basically a "boys have penises and girls have vaginas so trans cannot exist" argument. Failing that, the best 'solution' would be to acknowledge the "male souls / female souls" thing to be how the people of the setting think things work and just leave it at that, much like how many Star Wars fans regard Qui-Gon Jinn's statement on the relationship between midi-chlorians to be a mixture of fact (high midi-chlorian counts corelate with strength in the Force) and belief (midi-chlorians are the interlocutors for the will of the Force). Altering the setting's metaphysics will only create problems, especially when your rationale for altering the metaphysics basically boils down to you reading it as boys having penises and girls having vaginas means that trans cannot exist.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    There's not really any problem. Your proposed solution is as it actually is; Channeling is determined by sex, not gender. The book was written in the 90s by an old man with very of-his-time knowledge and views on things. When the series says gender, it means sex, because that was generally how people thought of it at the time.

    It's not really controversial to say that biological sex involves distinct, physical differences between people both on the macro and micro levels.

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    Default Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Okay, I'm being completely serious with this question, but why is this a problem? Or, to be more specific, what does changing the Wheel of Time in this manner 'fix'? What is being fixed by altering this?
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    You realize that there is no evidence for either the advanced medicine or the magic required to take a person who was born anatomically X and make them anatomically Y in the setting, right? Certainly not post-Age of Legends, anyways...
    Spoiler
    Show
    And, no, the act of an entity which for all practical purposes is a deity does not count as evidence that anything else in the setting can do that - particularly given that the 'transformation' is literally reincarnation.

    So if you're looking for a reason why trans people in the sense of people who were born anatomically X but have become anatomically Y don't exist within the setting, the obvious answer is that the capability to perform that transformation doesn't exist within the setting, at the very least not in any time vaguely close to the 'present day' except in the crude form of castration.

    Also, I would suggest that the true solution to this 'problem' is to change how you think, because your description of the 'problem' is basically a "boys have penises and girls have vaginas so trans cannot exist" argument. Failing that, the best 'solution' would be to acknowledge the "male souls / female souls" thing to be how the people of the setting think things work and just leave it at that, much like how many Star Wars fans regard Qui-Gon Jinn's statement on the relationship between midi-chlorians to be a mixture of fact (high midi-chlorian counts corelate with strength in the Force) and belief (midi-chlorians are the interlocutors for the will of the Force). Altering the setting's metaphysics will only create problems, especially when your rationale for altering the metaphysics basically boils down to you reading it as boys having penises and girls having vaginas means that trans cannot exist.
    Um... I don't mean to be rude, but you've completely misunderstood my description of the problem. My point was not that being unable to genetically rewrite people so their bodies match their preferred gender is somehow a problem with the setting. My point was that the worldbuilding as it stands implies non-cis people do not exist save by the Dark One's direct intervention, which is at best not very inclusive.

    ...Am I misusing a word or something? I'm trying to figure out where I could have erred to cause this misunderstanding, and drawing a complete blank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There's not really any problem. Your proposed solution is as it actually is; Channeling is determined by sex, not gender. The book was written in the 90s by an old man with very of-his-time knowledge and views on things. When the series says gender, it means sex, because that was generally how people thought of it at the time.

    It's not really controversial to say that biological sex involves distinct, physical differences between people both on the macro and micro levels.
    Aran'gar disproves that, though... or rather, is the only evidence one way or the other, and is not in favor of that interpretation. As the only trans person we see in the setting, he is a man in a female body, and has access to Sai'din.

    Like I said, at least half of fixing the problem is as simple as making Aran'gar either channel Sai'dar now or be shown/told to be an exception to the rule. Then voila; the textual evidence (or I guess visual evidence for a show? Scriptual evidence?) is now in favor of channeling being determined by sex instead of gender, which like you said is perfectly consistent with every bit of evidence except for Aran'gar.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-07-27 at 12:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Aran'gar was created by the act of an evil deity who can break whatever rules of the setting they want. Calling them trans is also questionable in the first place.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Okay, I'm being completely serious with this question, but why is this a problem? Or, to be more specific, what does changing the Wheel of Time in this manner 'fix'? What is being fixed by altering this?
    Well, when fans get invested into something, when a story is apart of your life enough, a bit of someone's identity is invested into it just by spending so much time in it, whether its intentional or not. another part of someone's identity might be being transgender. some of these people might feel a desire to make sure there is self-consistency between these parts of the identity that is the self. other transgender people might not care of course and they don't have to care, but neither does it mean those people have a right to say those who do care, to not care about making these parts of the identity consistent.

    since we're focusing on fixing the problem, the concerns of those who don't care, aren't really important to the discussion, to my logic. what do they have to gain from stopping people from trying to solve it for themselves? nothing. it is illogical for them to offer "help" through the advice "you should stop caring like me", because the premises are fundamentally different and thus not conducive to productive discussion.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Aran'gar disproves that, though... or rather, is the only evidence one way or the other, and is not in favor of that interpretation. As the only trans person we see in the setting, he is a man in a female body, and has access to Sai'din.

    Like I said, at least half of fixing the problem is as simple as making Aran'gar either channel Sai'dar now or be shown/told to be an exception to the rule. Then voila; the textual evidence (or I guess visual evidence for a show? Scriptual evidence?) is now in favor of channeling being determined by sex instead of gender, which like you said is perfectly consistent with every bit of evidence except for Aran'gar.
    Insofar as Aran'gar has a function in the story, it's as a physically female body capable of channeling Saidin, because that enables Aran'gar's infiltration of Salidar, which is basically the entire post-reincarnation purpose of the character.

    And there is other textual evidence for gender fixation of the soul in the setting anyway. In particular, when Rand takes the portal stone journey during The Great Hunt he lives through something like 100 lives and he's male in all of them. Similarly, when Rand travels to Rhiudean and lives through the history of the Aiel, he always takes the viewpoint of a male individual, never a female one, while when Aviendha journeys into the future in the same place all of her viewpoint descendants are female. All in all characters jump into the memories of other characters dozens of times throughout the series, but unless I'm mistaken no one ever spends time in the viewpoint of the opposite gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin
    Aran'gar was created by the act of an evil deity who can break whatever rules of the setting they want. Calling them trans is also questionable in the first place.
    Indeed, especially because the Dark One messed with mind as well as body and overwrote Aran'gar's memories so that she became female in the hundreds of years worth of life that had been lived as the male Eval Ramman. Not sure what to call that but it's not comparable to any real world trans scenario.

    The existing evidence suggests that souls pledged to the Dark One are functioning under a different set of rules than those of normal people with regard to how reincarnation works in WoT. Normally people go round-and-round the Wheel, but those whose souls belong to the Dark One are his to do with as he wills, including the ability to remove them from the cycle forever if he wants - it is strongly implied that this is what happened to Asmodean when he was killed.

    Ultimately, there's lots of weird stuff about souls in the WoT, including the ability of mortal channelers to destroy immortal souls using Balefire, which is just theologically bizarre. So really you just have to roll with it.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Okay, I'm being completely serious with this question, but why is this a problem? Or, to be more specific, what does changing the Wheel of Time in this manner 'fix'? What is being fixed by altering this?
    Well, it's a problem because the current implication is that there are no trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid people... and that's exclusionary. It's quite literally taking a group of people and saying "There is no place for you in this cool world we've built", even if only by implication. (Alternatively, "There is no place for you in this cool magic system we've designed", which is fundamentally the same problem). And that's not a nice message to send.

    I've chosen to single it out because it's almost certainly not an intentional message; it's an accident born of the way gender and sex were viewed when the author was writing the story, and clashes badly with the series' other themes. Fixing it is therefore a) something an adaptation should be expected to do, to fit with the other themes, and perhaps more importantly b) remarkably unintrusive, because it's an accidental element of the worldbuilding, and thus only comes up a couple of times.

    You could argue that it is a minor problem, caused only by a few elements that can be read into in ways the author didn't intend... and I'd say that that's exactly why it should be fixed, because it's so dang easy that it makes a good starting point.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-07-27 at 02:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    what do they have to gain from stopping people from trying to solve it for themselves?
    In this particular case? Stopping people from mangling one of their favorite stories in order to push personal agendas. Headcanon whatever you want, but when it derails discussion of the book, or people are pushing to get their fan-fiction into the adaptation being made then don't be surprised when people disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Well, it's a problem because the current implication is that there are no trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid people... and that's exclusionary. It's quite literally taking a group of people and saying "There is no place for you in this cool world we've built", even if only by implication. (Alternatively, "There is no place for you in this cool magic system we've designed", which is fundamentally the same problem). And that's not a nice message to send.

    I've chosen to single it out because it's almost certainly not an intentional message; it's an accident born of the way gender and sex were viewed when the author was writing the story, and clashes badly with the series' other themes. Fixing it is therefore a) something an adaptation should be expected to do, to fit with the other themes, and perhaps more importantly b) remarkably unintrusive, because it's an accidental element of the worldbuilding, and thus only comes up a couple of times.

    You could argue that it is a minor problem, caused only by a few elements that can be read into in ways the author didn't intend... and I'd say that that's exactly why it should be fixed, because it's so dang easy that it makes a good starting point.
    It's not easy at all. You're literally talking about changing a fundamental part of the setting. There are literally dozens of subplots that would need to be changed. Here, I'll make it easy for you. If you're born with male private parts you channel Saidin. If you're born with female parts you channel Saidar. You can identify as whatever you want, but it doesn't change what you were born with. Just like in real life.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-27 at 02:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Honest question: am I doing a bad job of explaining myself?

    Because this
    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Here, I'll make it easy for you. If you're born with male private parts you channel Saidin. If you're born with female parts you channel Saidar. You can identify as whatever you want, but it doesn't change what you were born with. Just like in real life.
    is literally my proposed fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    1a. Access to the One Power should be sex-linked instead of gender-linked.
    Make channeling dependent on sex instead of on gender. That way people who don't identify as their birth sex can still channel without causing problems throughout the worldbuilding. Simple. Clean. Inclusive. Requires barely any changes to the source material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Also Me
    1b. What effect does this have on the story? As it stands, this literally only affects Aran'gar, a character so minor that most people in the other thread couldn't remember his name (I had to look it up for this thread). After being put in a female body, Aran'gar would need to either now be channeling the female half of the power, Sai'dar, or would need to be compared to actual trans people in the setting to show that he is an explicit exception to the rule. Or you could cut this character after his initial death; many fans probably wouldn't even notice.
    So genuinely, if someone could point out to me what about my writing is making it so easy for people to miss my point, I would be extremely grateful, because I am obviously doing something wrong, and I would like to improve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    In this particular case? Stopping people from mangling one of their favorite stories in order to push personal agendas. Headcanon whatever you want, but when it derails discussion of the book, or people are pushing to get their fan-fiction into the adaptation being made then don't be surprised when people disagree with you.
    Meaning nothing. because the original version will exist unaltered. while every agenda is personal. you have one to, by trying to stop it. so saying that a "personal agenda" is involved is meaningless as "I like it the way it is" is a persona agenda as it an agenda held by a person. we are discussing entertainment there is literally nothing not personal about this. while implying that there is something wrong about the people doing this by implying that people are "mangling" the story. discussing this topic is no different from any other fan discussion, Anteros, such as discussing whether to view the prequel trilogy of star wars in the machete order, or making headcanons about Doctor Who.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Honest question: am I doing a bad job of explaining myself?

    Because this


    is literally my proposed fix.



    Make channeling dependent on sex instead of on gender. That way people who don't identify as their birth sex can still channel without causing problems throughout the worldbuilding. Simple. Clean. Inclusive. Requires barely any changes to the source material.



    So genuinely, if someone could point out to me what about my writing is making it so easy for people to miss my point, I would be extremely grateful, because I am obviously doing something wrong, and I would like to improve it.
    Ultimately though this means a net...no change. This is a medieval fantasy world with pretty strict views on gender, even if it is an overall matriarchal paradigm. They're going to use gender and sex interchangeably, because that's what people did.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    One thing I think that needs to be unpacked here is that the Wheel of Time has some very specific opinions with regard to its overarching metaphysical structure and these are very important.

    First, the Wheel of Time is an explicitly dualistic universe. The mind is not simply an emergent creation of physical processes but is a separate entity that can exist entirely without a body at all and is instead linked to an immortal existence that cyclically reincarnates through different bodies over the course of time. This is generally referred to as the 'soul' in everyday parlance.

    Second, souls in WoT are not infinitely malleable and in fact come with a whole pile of traits. In a sense souls have inherent traits (nature) in addition to being shaped by outside circumstances (nurture). This is made very clear through the Portal Stone journey in The Great Hunt when Rand lives a hundred lives in succession but is still very clearly fundamentally the same person throughout them all, and the recurring line 'I have won again Lews Therin' calls this out explicitly. Another character later comments on his own experience during this event and provides confirmation.

    Gender appears to be one of the traits inherently bound to souls. When characters live many lives over and over they always have the same gender. This is true during the portal stone journey, it's true for the Heroes of the Horn, it's true for Rand himself, and so on. Aran'gar, a being essentially created by the Dark One perverting the nature of reincarnation in-universe, appears to be the only exception (there's an unanswerable question attached to what would have happened if Aran'gar had been reincarnated again since she was killed using balefire).

    Given all this, the only real way to have transpersons in the WoT is if souls are placed into the wrong bodies. There's nothing wrong with that philosophically, however, no such characters are recorded in the series. Now, that doesn't mean they didn't exist during the Age of Legends since we don't see enough of that time period and the magitech utopia of that period was probably capable of rendering a trans individual capable of passing perfectly so there is no real way to observe such a character in the first place (after all, they could create human replicate bodies in the form of gholam). In fact, it would be possible to have one of the Forsaken explain this.

    If such characters exist in the Third Age, well, one of the reasons we are unlikely to encounter them is they probably face immense prejudice. There's very strong evidence for powerful in-universe prejudice against being publicly trans (for one, Min faces considerable prejudice just for wearing some male articles of clothing, even though she presents as female the whole time). Male souls placed into female bodies who channel saidin (the WoT version of transmen) are likely to be particularly vulnerable - plausibly the Red Ajah kills them all outright and then lies and says they had male flesh from the start in the records (this would actually explain why none of the Aes Sedai in Salidar recognize the Aran'gar threat, since none of them are Red). Female souls in male bodies who channel saidar is a less lethal situation, and it is possible that a small number of them are found among the Aes Sedai or other female channeler societies. There is a question of how detectable this would be. The Mirror of Mists can be used to create an alternative appearance and it strikes me as plausible that in addition to whatever surgical means could be used safely, transwoman channelers would present themselves as how they believed they should be using this art more or less constantly.

    I think the adaptation could absolutely produce a couple of characters of this nature - probably mid-tier Aes Sedai in Salidar would be the best choice, perhaps even one of the Sitters - with trans actresses, but there would be very little reason for anyone in-universe to ever comment on it.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Honest question: am I doing a bad job of explaining myself?
    I don't think you're explaining yourself badly, it's just that the solution you're trying to explain is really counter-intuitive and confusing.

    Your "solved" version of the Wheel of Time has people who are born male, with male bodies, who channel the male half of the True Source, but who are still female. So, in your version of WoT . . . what makes these characters female, exactly? The fact that they say they are? If so, then you've basically redefined the words "male" and "female" to be totally transitory and meaningless . . . while leaving the categories of "biologically male" and "biologically female" just as ironclad and important as ever. I really don't see how this helps anyone, or anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    I don't think you're explaining yourself badly, it's just that the solution you're trying to explain is really counter-intuitive and confusing.

    Your "solved" version of the Wheel of Time has people who are born male, with male bodies, who channel the male half of the True Source, but who are still female. So, in your version of WoT . . . what makes these characters female, exactly? The fact that they say they are? If so, then you've basically redefined the words "male" and "female" to be totally transitory and meaningless . . . while leaving the categories of "biologically male" and "biologically female" just as ironclad and important as ever. I really don't see how this helps anyone, or anything.
    Indeed. It makes sense from a "the universe is an unfair and unjust place and thus if the the True Source is a materialist physical apart of that cruel unfair materialist injustice that trans people face" perspective as it reinforces the struggle against such an injustice. but it provides little help in how someone would solve that in this world. its real cold and uncaring.

    the alternative from a spiritual interpretation of the True Source is to say that everyone who is born with a form of channeling that doesn't match their sex means they are transgender and that you can prove this by having all the characters with channeling that doesn't match their sex turn out to be transgender and thus use their channeling mismatch to channel their bodies to change into their preferred sex somehow, which is how I'd do it but others would argue doesn't really capture the struggle of being transgender by making it too easy, which I guess is valid criticism.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    There's also the possible interpretation that it's a utopian state in that regard, where everyone is born with their physical sex matching the gender they're most comfortable with. Nobody seems bothered in the series, after all, save Aran'gar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There's also the possible interpretation that it's a utopian state in that regard, where everyone is born with their physical sex matching the gender they're most comfortable with. Nobody seems bothered in the series, after all, save Aran'gar.
    I mean you can, technically.

    I just don't know if the reaction to that would be positive, because yes you can technically say that from a perspective of pure logic? But......that doesn't mean the reaction would be positive? because it can be interpreted either as "the trans people all get their ideal bodies" or...it can be interpreted as erasure. its tricky like that, because if you go that route, it can be seen the same as not respecting transgender people at all by saying they are never born thus Wheel of Time has no place for them. its one of those things where ironically by saying the problem never happens your potentially disrespecting the struggle of the identity thats trying to solve it, because the imperfection of it existing in the first place is what the identity is about. like Poeticallypsycho's version still make sense even if the story of that would be dark, depressing and full of stomping on hearts to make transpeople go "oh thats so sad! I relate to this struggle against cold uncaring things defining me not as who I truly am", but it might work. you on the other hand, might actually be proposing something that could make people mad, I think?

    I know, its probably not rational for the fantasy to be "my fantasy was born with this imperfection like me but through their struggles manages to get rid of it and become their ideal self" instead of "my fantasy was just born without this imperfection" but you can say that for a lot of fantasy heroes really. for some reason humans when telling stories really go for that journey part for it to work.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There's also the possible interpretation that it's a utopian state in that regard, where everyone is born with their physical sex matching the gender they're most comfortable with. Nobody seems bothered in the series, after all, save Aran'gar.
    Came here to say this. What if there aren't any trans people because no one is ever born into the wrong body. But, as a cis individual (I think?) I don't know if that's a preferable world state from trans individuals, which I expect would differ from person to person in the same way that my answer to whether I'd have rather been born without ADHD would differ from another.
    Last edited by Sholos; 2021-07-27 at 05:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Came here to say this. What if there aren't any trans people because no one is ever born into the wrong body.
    There are three problems with this:

    - It would be unlike the real world. WoT obviously is a fantasy world, but it's presented as if gender, anatomy, sex, and biology work the same way as in ours. The humans in Randland are normal humans, just like humans are in the real world. They are supposed to be real humans, not fantasy humans. And real humans are sometimes trans.
    By saying "No trans people exist", you also say "humans in Randland are different from real humans".
    Which is not necessarily wrong but it would definitely be a change to the original work - and most people in this thread seem to dislike making changes to the original work.

    - Not all genderqueer people are the "born in the wrong body" kind of trans. Heck, not all genderqueer people are trans. The same interesting questions apply to intersex and non-binary people.

    - It comes with all kinds of... unpleasant implications. "The creator made sure nobody is ever trans" is an easy quick fix, but this kind of "perfect" fantasy has commonly been used against trans people. If you want the story to be more suitable to modern audiences (or take some kind of societal responsibility) this is exactly not what you need to do.

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    'No one is born into the wrong body' is erasure, but so is 'trans channelers don't survive puberty', and most of the other solutions.

    Having Aran gar switch to saidar doesn't work, as she would be completely unfamiliar with how it works and not be effectively able to use it without years of training. Travelling works differently and so forth. If sdhe can use it effectively, that carries unfortunate implications of its own, in that it devalues all the work channelers have to put into learning their abilities, or possibly that saidir is easier to learn or something.)

    If there is any ability to switch which Source you access, then the breaking doesn't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    There are three problems with this:

    - It would be unlike the real world. WoT obviously is a fantasy world, but it's presented as if gender, anatomy, sex, and biology work the same way as in ours. The humans in Randland are normal humans, just like humans are in the real world. They are supposed to be real humans, not fantasy humans. And real humans are sometimes trans.
    By saying "No trans people exist", you also say "humans in Randland are different from real humans".
    Which is not necessarily wrong but it would definitely be a change to the original work - and most people in this thread seem to dislike making changes to the original work.

    - Not all genderqueer people are the "born in the wrong body" kind of trans. Heck, not all genderqueer people are trans. The same interesting questions apply to intersex and non-binary people.

    - It comes with all kinds of... unpleasant implications. "The creator made sure nobody is ever trans" is an easy quick fix, but this kind of "perfect" fantasy has commonly been used against trans people. If you want the story to be more suitable to modern audiences (or take some kind of societal responsibility) this is exactly not what you need to do.
    If the story were going n any way ABOUT trans issues, this might be relevant. As-is I see little reason it would ever come up in the story, and if it did...simplified answers work fine.

    It's exactly the same way not every story featuring a black character needs to deeply explore black social issues. No story can be about everything.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    If the story were going n any way ABOUT trans issues, this might be relevant. As-is I see little reason it would ever come up in the story, and if it did...simplified answers work fine.

    It's exactly the same way not every story featuring a black character needs to deeply explore black social issues. No story can be about everything.
    Then you might as well just leave well enough alone and let any transpeople make their own headcanons and OCs that work for them without confirming one way or another, or not care enough to post about its not "relevant" to change Wheel of Times.

    It cuts both ways: you don't have to be involved in everything a fandom is involved in, or participate in everything a story is about just because your a fan. if a bunch of transpeople want to enjoy it their way, or if a new thing comes out thats not for you....thats okay. you don't need to insist on owning every part of it. you can't be apart of everything.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-07-27 at 07:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Then you might as well just leave well enough alone and let any transpeople make their own headcanons and OCs that work for them without confirming one way or another, or not care enough to post about its not "relevant" to change Wheel of Times.

    It cuts both ways: you don't have to be involved in everything a fandom is involved in, or participate in everything a story is about just because your a fan. if a bunch of transpeople want to enjoy it their way, or if a new thing comes out thats not for you....thats okay. you don't need to insist on owning every part of it. you can't be apart of everything.
    This thread isn't about headcanons, you're looking for the one a few threads down. It's about what, if any, changes need to be made to make the series consistent re: Channeling and gender.

    You making posts like this does not actually help matters, do you realize this? It never does.

    You've made four posts in this thread and only one of them is actually about the thread topic; the rest are just you telling people to shut up in a wordier fashion.

    Does this seem like a way to have a discussion to you? Everybody else has managed to discuss the topic without telling anybody else to **** off.
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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    If the story were going n any way ABOUT trans issues, this might be relevant. As-is I see little reason it would ever come up in the story, and if it did...simplified answers work fine.

    It's exactly the same way not every story featuring a black character needs to deeply explore black social issues. No story can be about everything.
    Oh, I would never argue the story needs to be ABOUT trans issues.

    But issues of gender, gender expectations and gender roles are pretty essential to the story, and that's why people are left with questions about trans people. I completely agree simplified answers work fine.
    For me it seems only reasonable that one of the hundreds of Aes Sedai we see in the tower is a trans woman.
    If someone wants a simple answer, this would be the simplest of answers: Egwene walks through the tower and sees an Aes Sedai that looks like man but channels Saidar. She if confused but someone explains the Aes Sedai is a woman who just happens to have a male-looking body.
    This takes maybe four sentences, or five seconds of screen time? It acknowledges that - like intended - humans work the same in Randland as in the real world, trans people exist, they channel according to their gender, no issues whatsoever.

    If you don't like the idea of the Aes Sedai being so tolerant and nonchalant, have the transwoman pop up among the Kinswomen. Those are used to criticise the Aes Sedai anyway. "Even though I channel Saidar I wasn't allowed into the tower because I look like a guy."
    Three sentences top, fits the narrative of Kinswomen complaining about the Tower, done.

    I'm sure some people would complain about wokeness and tokenism, but hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    Oh, I would never argue the story needs to be ABOUT trans issues.

    But issues of gender, gender expectations and gender roles are pretty essential to the story, and that's why people are left with questions about trans people. I completely agree simplified answers work fine.
    For me it seems only reasonable that one of the hundreds of Aes Sedai we see in the tower is a trans woman.
    If someone wants a simple answer, this would be the simplest of answers: Egwene walks through the tower and sees an Aes Sedai that looks like man but channels Saidar. She if confused but someone explains the Aes Sedai is a woman who just happens to have a male-looking body.
    This takes maybe four sentences, or five seconds of screen time? It acknowledges that - like intended - humans work the same in Randland as in the real world, trans people exist, they channel according to their gender, no issues whatsoever.

    If you don't like the idea of the Aes Sedai being so tolerant and nonchalant, have the transwoman pop up among the Kinswomen. Those are used to criticise the Aes Sedai anyway. "Even though I channel Saidar I wasn't allowed into the tower because I look like a guy."
    Three sentences top, fits the narrative of Kinswomen complaining about the Tower, done.

    I'm sure some people would complain about wokeness and tokenism, but hey.
    That kind of begs a lot of other changes. Like making any of the existing Channeler groups tolerant people.

    Which...is probably a good change in general now I think of it. Having almost every major female character being wholly unreasonable because "women, amiright?" is one of the bigger hurdles to adapting the series.

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This thread isn't about headcanons, you're looking for the one a few threads down. It's about what, if any, changes need to be made to make the series consistent re: Channeling and gender.

    You making posts like this does not actually help matters, do you realize this? It never does.

    You've made four posts in this thread and none of them are actually about the thread topic, just you telling people to shut up in a wordier fashion.
    Oh. I guess telling people how I'd do the fix myself, telling you what the probable reaction would be to your fix while admitting it was logical in theory but providing reasons why people would understandably not be entirely logical about taking it because we aren't logic machines, and providing my view of poeticallypsycho's fix, doesn't count as being on the threads topic now.

    and I have no idea what you mean by "it never does". that is something that probably doesn't involve this thread, whatever it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    That kind of begs a lot of other changes. Like making any of the existing Channeler groups tolerant people.

    Which...is probably a good change in general now I think of it. Having almost every major female character being wholly unreasonable because "women, amiright?" is one of the bigger hurdles to adapting the series.
    Fair enough!

    One the other hand, making any of the women in the series reasonable would be a pretty major change, and I think most of us are opposed to doing major changes

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    Default Re: Fixing an Unfortunate Implication: Non-Cis People in The Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    If someone wants a simple answer, this would be the simplest of answers: Egwene walks through the tower and sees an Aes Sedai that looks like man but channels Saidar. She if confused but someone explains the Aes Sedai is a woman who just happens to have a male-looking body.
    This takes maybe four sentences, or five seconds of screen time? It acknowledges that - like intended - humans work the same in Randland as in the real world, trans people exist, they channel according to their gender, no issues whatsoever.
    There is enough variety in the cultures from which the Aes Desai draw their recruits that the answer to "why are you dressed like a man?" could very reasonably be "I'm not" (for a real world example, consider that kilts are a form of male attire which have the same general appearance as skirts). It could also reasonably be Min's apparent answer of "I prefer pants to skirts."

    Also, transvestite = transsexual probably isn't exactly a great way to go about being inclusive, and adding a bit character whose only purpose in being there is, essentially, to make Egwene - or anyone else - go "what's with that freak?" seems to me like a pretty bad form of tokenism.

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