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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

    Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-07-28 at 03:49 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

    Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.
    This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.

    It's hard to guess mental ages. I'd say Sunny acts a lot like early comic Elan, and no one ever questioned bringing him into dangerous battles.
    Last edited by hungrycrow; 2021-07-28 at 03:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    I'd agree with the assessment that Sunny seems to be Elan-level of maturity, maybe a little less. Not sure if that's an indicator of being an adolescent, or a point against Elan's faculties

    Though, Elan's maturity does fluctuate a little bit depending on the situation. Sometimes it doesn't always "sell" for me: the first panels of #1238, for instance, where Haley's talking to Elan, sound a little too much like Mother-Son dialogue for my tastes.

    I can also see Serini being a bit more willing to involve an immature combatant for an "entire world at stake" scenario, if my read on her (Chaotic Neutral) is correct. Not interested in starting the old Serini Alignment Wars up again, just musing that, say, LG Durkon might not involve Sunny were he in Serini's position.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-07-28 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    It doesn’t feel right to me.
    I think you are ignoring some context.

    1. Serini collected a wide variety of monsters to defend Kraagor's Gate. Deadly, powerful, monsters.
    2. Sunny is defending the gate from a threat - that's why he's here in the first place.
    3. Thog was also "child like" and was still a competent fighter.
    4. Sunny's a freaking beholder. Beholders are powerful monsters. That he's been befriended, taught, and nurtured by Serini (nurture sometimes being greater than nature) over 50-60 years (remember how long it's been since Kraagor died and the Scribblers split up?) may inform how his personality developed.
    Sunny isn't "a kid."
    5. Sunny is, like Elan, a little bit of an airhead and apparently of friendly disposition. Gee, ya think that may be why Serini calls him Sunny? (Given that he floats, he may be a hydrogen-head or a helium-head). He is also, wait for it, yet another case of BurlewBrand(TM) trope subversion.
    6. Elan isn't a kid either; he's been doing adventures that are dangerous for the whole series.

    *Jude Judy Voice*
    Objection overruled.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-07-29 at 10:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    In hindsight, Serini's last line was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom".
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-07-29 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    In hindsight, Serini's last line was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom".
    But in that strip he called her "Boss" rather than 'mom' so I am not sure what that reflects. Need to review the recent strips and get more brain on t his.

    OK, I'll guess at "adopted" based on this strip (Don't call me Mom when we're working => OK, Boss)

    Last Thought:

    If Sunny is, in fact, the same beholder from strip 0032 (which has 8 eyes) then his relationship with Serini is less than two years old and my idea on their being together for 50-60 years is off base.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-07-29 at 10:50 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    It seems mean. Poor Sunny is getting hurt. She’s saying “oww”. She’s acting like an excited and eager 10 year old trying to help.

    I’m ok with Xykon and Redcloak exploiting the juvenile MitD, because Xykon and Redcloak are evil, and nobody likes them.

    But I want to like Serini, amd her crass exploitation of the juvenile Sunny disturbs me. It makes me not like her as much.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-07-29 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    In hindsight, Serini's last line was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom".
    Sunny calling her that isn't the same thing as her reciprocating the feeling.

    Anyway, Sunny might be a literal child, but I feel like we should already understand that characters acting or having especially immature quirks is not the same thing as them actually being intended to be read as children or mentally unfit.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-07-29 at 01:25 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Sunny calling her that isn't the same thing as her reciprocating the feeling.

    Anyway, Sunny might be a literal child, but I feel like we should already understand that characters acting or having especially immature quirks is not the same thing as them actually being intended to be read as children or mentally unfit.
    She said Don't call me Mom when we're working, which means it is acceptable for Sunny to call her mom when they're not working.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Sunny is more likely to be childish and/or "comic book dumb" than an actual child, but even if they are a child, this is still a fictional fantasy comedy story. It can have children doing dangerous stuff without it necessarily reflecting badly on anyone allowing it, to a point. That child also being a highly competent combatant is one of the things that would probably make it ok in this context.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2021-07-29 at 01:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.
    What does that have to do with anything?

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    I think that while a Beholder is surely an intelligent being, Sunny is more like a talking very smart dog then a talking very smart child (as him being a monster), and you talk to the little pretty Mommy's puppy that way even to big old dogs, why shouldn't they speak back in the same way?
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    New suggestion: the MitD is an Italian Protean. Mamma mia!
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    What does that have to do with anything?
    If people are going to bring up Sunny calling Serini "mom" as evidence of being juvenile or particularly childish, it's pretty relevant that it's pretty normal to call your mom "mom" without being either of those things.

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    Thumbs up Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Yes, she should.

    "I have no feelings on viewing you. You are largely irrelevant."
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    She said Don't call me Mom when we're working, which means it is acceptable for Sunny to call her mom when they're not working.
    Which does not in itself imply that Serini feels the same way, just that she's willing to allow it. The way she's been talking has not generally lead me to believe that she views Sunny in a maternal light. Whether that's just because they're working or not remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-07-29 at 03:57 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.
    True.

    But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

    Sunny appears to me to be a child.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-07-29 at 04:19 PM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    True.

    But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

    Sunny appears to me to be a child.
    We do not know yet whether the crayons were made by Sunny or how old they are.

    As for the original question, nobody condemns Roy for hiring Elan even though he is also childish.
    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.

    It's hard to guess mental ages. I'd say Sunny acts a lot like early comic Elan, and no one ever questioned bringing him into dangerous battles.
    Bringing him into one battle ended with Roy comparing the pros and cons of getting eaten by a dragon, I'm sure there were some questions raised about bringing Elan into dangerous situations.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    True.

    But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

    Sunny appears to me to be a child.
    My sister's children are an MD working on a Ph.D. and another Ph.D. student. My sister has crayon drawings from when her children were much younger still on her walls.

    IIRC, my mother took down MOST of my childhood scribbles when she and my father moved into their retirement community.

    We've seen nothing inconsistent with Sunny being an adult, who went out to look for work a couple of years ago, couldn't get a job because if IP problems in comic 32, and came back home to live with "mom" for a few more years.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    We do not know yet whether the crayons were made by Sunny or how old they are.
    That’s true, but I’m still making the assumption that the beholder sized bed belongs to the beholder.

    And I’m also making the assumption that the crayon drawing of an orange beholder and a half-green humanoid right above the beholder sized bed are meant to represent Sunny and Serini, and also belong to the beholder.

    But I leap to conclusions sometimes.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-07-29 at 09:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    We've seen nothing inconsistent with Sunny being an adult, who went out to look for work a couple of years ago, couldn't get a job because if IP problems in comic 32, and came back home to live with "mom" for a few more years.
    Yep. When my brother dropped out of law school, he did the same thing for a year or so before he got back on his feet.
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    I'd say Sunny's mental maturity could be anywhere from a 10 year old to a 20-something year old. As such, I don't feel like Sunny shouldn't be there unless it is made explicitly clear that Sunny is very young.
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    If we are meant to think that Sunny is too young to appropriately be participating in combat, I'm sure the point will be made much more explicitly.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    If people are going to bring up Sunny calling Serini "mom" as evidence of being juvenile or particularly childish, it's pretty relevant that it's pretty normal to call your mom "mom" without being either of those things.
    I never said anything about whether I view Sunny as a literal child or not. My main contribution here was calling her mean for saying such a thing to someone who care enough for her to call her "mom".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Which does not in itself imply that Serini feels the same way, just that she's willing to allow it. The way she's been talking has not generally lead me to believe that she views Sunny in a maternal light. Whether that's just because they're working or not remains to be seen.
    It's still a mean thing to say whether she accepted Sunny as her child or not. Heck, considering their relationship, it would be mean if Roy said it to Elan.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-07-30 at 05:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I never said anything about whether I view Sunny as a literal child or not. My main contribution here was calling her mean for saying such a thing to someone who care enough for her to call her "mom".



    It's still a mean thing to say whether she accepted Sunny as her child or not. Heck, considering their relationship, it would be mean if Roy said it to Elan.
    I don't see how it is "mean", it's not like she's blaming Sunny for anything.
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny. Might have gone a bit of ways to convince Serini that the Order aren’t all too bad:

    “I know it’s a monster, but it still seems like a child. Try not to hurt it and go for our invisible attacker if we can!”

    I think it was irresponsible to take Sunny into the fight, and it’s also irresponsible of the Order to treat Sunny as a pin cushion.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    One can always trust the forum to become unduly infatuated with minor side characters at the slightest opportunity.

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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empiar93 View Post
    You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny.
    Sunny is the steed of an airborne, invisible enemy who is shooting sharp, pointy, poisoned weapons at the party.
    Of course they are going to shoot back.
    Also, Sunny is using its/his powers to cast magical/supernatural harmful effects on the characters. It is not nice to try and turn someone into stone.

    Have you ever played D&D? I realize that some readers are not D&D players.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-07-30 at 08:23 AM.
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    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
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    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empiar93 View Post
    You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny. Might have gone a bit of ways to convince Serini that the Order aren’t all too bad:

    “I know it’s a monster, but it still seems like a child. Try not to hurt it and go for our invisible attacker if we can!”

    I think it was irresponsible to take Sunny into the fight, and it’s also irresponsible of the Order to treat Sunny as a pin cushion.
    I disagree. The Order are caught in an ambush by a powerful, clever attacker and, as far as they can tell, are fighting for their lives. I do not expect them to be weighing the morality of fighting someone who sounds like Elan when their party leader has already been downed by the attackers.

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