Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

[Empiar93]

Sunny is the steed of an airborne, invisible enemy who is shooting sharp, pointy, poisoned weapons at the party.
Of course they are going to shoot back.
Also, Sunny is using its/his powers to cast magical/supernatural harmful effects on the characters. It is not nice to try and turn someone into stone.

Have you ever played D&D? I realize that some readers are not D&D players.

You do make a good point, but on the other hand, Sunny was initially just an off switch for their magic (i addition to being a flying mount). He didn’t make an attack until the battle had gone on for a few rounds.

And yes, I do play D&D. This is not D&D, as many other forum-users have previously had to remind me, and possibly you, and probably everyone else in this thread. (I’m not being insulting or snarky, promise)

I disagree. The Order are caught in an ambush by a powerful, clever attacker and, as far as they can tell, are fighting for their lives. I do not expect them to be weighing the morality of fighting someone who sounds like Elan when their party leader has already been downed by the attackers.

You bring up a fair point, and now that I think about it, looking back at how Haley acted during DStP, she’s very much a pragmatist before a moralist. Perhaps I should have known better, as her character development has never steered her away from that direction. I think it was more wishful thinking on my part regarding how they can get Serini to stop trying to turn them away.

[dmc91356]

From my perspective, whether it's D&D, a novel, television, a movie, or, heck, the world, anyone who is part of an ambush that involves someone in my group getting shot at with poisoned objects is fair game. If we get to the point where there is no more shooting and there is actual conversing, we can figure out things like motives, etc.

I cannot fault the OOTS at all for trying to take out the only visible enemy, no matter what that person has said or how the words might reflect on them, given everything else that has taken place.

[KorvinStarmast]

You do make a good point, but on the other hand, Sunny was initially just an off switch for their magic (i addition to being a flying mount).

When your enemy is mounted and is attacking you, attacking their mount makes sense.

And yes, I do play D&D. This is not D&D,

It is based on D&D, though, otherwise the spells and monsters don't make sense, nor does Rich's entire conceit that 'it ain't easy being green' (the Redcloak motivation) have any context.

(I’m not being insulting or snarky, promise)

No snark received. Thanks.

[Fyraltari]

nor does Rich's entire conceit that 'it ain't easy being green' (the Redcloak motivation) have any context.

I present to you: most of the fantasy genre.

[Jason]

Serini is literally trying to prevent the world from being destroyed by a soul-devouring god-slaying abomination. In her view, Sunny is already being endangered by anyone who may attempt to destroy the gate, like the paladins and the Order of the Stick. Leaving Sunny out of a fight is not going to protect him (her? It?) if the Snarl gets loose because Serini didn't have Sunny's firepower backing her up. Desperate times and all that.

[Ionathus]

Serini is literally trying to prevent the world from being destroyed by a soul-devouring god-slaying abomination. In her view, Sunny is already being endangered by anyone who may attempt to destroy the gate, like the paladins and the Order of the Stick. Leaving Sunny out of a fight is not going to protect him (her? It?) if the Snarl gets loose because Serini didn't have Sunny's firepower backing her up. Desperate times and all that.

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.

[Jason]

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.

These are the risks, yes, and the tipping point in Serini's logic appears to be that Sunny is a CR13 (when mature) beholder with 11 hit dice, 26 AC, and a smorgasbord of magic eye beams, not a child of some other species that wouldn't contribute much to a fight.

One wonders how old Mimi is too.

[RatElemental]

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.

"Sunny dies" isn't even the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "Sunny lives, but the gate is destroyed, and Sunny's soul is annihilated by the snarl." To Serini, involving Sunny in the fight is probably the best way to avert that outcome, one way or another.

[hungrycrow]

Serini has Sunny call her boss, and the "bottoms up" move seems like a rehearsed maneuver. It doesn't seem like Serini is reluctantly bringing Sunny in as a last ditch effort; more like she considers him an actual member of her defenses.

[Forum Explorer]

Serini has Sunny call her boss, and the "bottoms up" move seems like a rehearsed maneuver. It doesn't seem like Serini is reluctantly bringing Sunny in as a last ditch effort; more like she considers him an actual member of her defenses.

Very much this. Regardless of how parental Serini may or may not be, it's clear that she's actively training Sunny (and perhaps others) to fight.

"Sunny dies" isn't even the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "Sunny lives, but the gate is destroyed, and Sunny's soul is annihilated by the snarl." To Serini, involving Sunny in the fight is probably the best way to avert that outcome, one way or another.

To be fair, Sunny dying needs not be permanent. There's no reason Raise Dead couldn't be used on a Beholder.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Knowing the author, I think the fact that he's in combat at all can be taken to mean he's an adult in most important senses.

But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

We can't see them well, that fact that we don't see detail from across the room doesn't mean there isn't detail. Or maybe Sunny (lacking hands) has trouble with the fine motions of art.

Or also, consider the situation: No internet, tv, fresh books, or fresh company; I think an adult might eventually find a box a crayons very interesting.

Yep. When my brother dropped out of law school, he did the same thing for a year or so before he got back on his feet.

Also, leaving home upon maturity is strictly a cultural thing.

Especially when circumstances don't allow the young adult to create a comparable home. Like a mixed species family in the north pole, or royals (why hasn't prince Charles gone off and started his own kingdom yet?).

[Liquor Box]

People are ok with more intelligent than usual animal companion combatants, like the bugbear's wolf - who might have a similar level of cognitive capacity. I don't think there's too much to worry about in bringing a beholder with limited mental capacity into combat, especially if Serini thinks the circumstances are dire. For someone willing to kidnap one group and now attack another without any apparent provocation, I don't think it really registers.

[RatElemental]

People are ok with more intelligent than usual animal companion combatants, like the bugbear's wolf - who might have a similar level of cognitive capacity. I don't think there's too much to worry about in bringing a beholder with limited mental capacity into combat, especially if Serini thinks the circumstances are dire. For someone willing to kidnap one group and now attack another without any apparent provocation, I don't think it really registers.

Grayview is not a slightly more intelligent wolf, he's a worg. Worgs are magical beasts that have an int of 6 and are capable of speech without any outside help.

[Liquor Box]

Grayview is not a slightly more intelligent wolf, he's a worg. Worgs are magical beasts that have an int of 6 and are capable of speech without any outside help.

So comparable to how people perceive the beholder then?

[Bookwyrm13]

I do wonder why everyone keeps assigning gender pronouns to Sunny despite none being used in the strip so far. Have we learned nothing from V?

As for the actual question, honestly, probably not, but I imagine she might not have thought the Order was much of a threat--especially since they'd be completely out of magic if everything had gone according to her plan. Not that that justifies it necessarily, but I imagine a whatever-alignment-Serini-is Rogue weighed the risks and rewards and figured it would turn out okay.

Or, as others have rightly pointed out, she views it as a necessary risk to protect the Gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

So comparable to how people perceive the beholder then?

Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).

I do wonder why everyone keeps assigning gender pronouns to Sunny despite none being used in the strip so far. Have we learned nothing from V?

+1 to your point: beholder is a different species, isn't humanoid, and perhaps gender isn't even a thing for beholders.

[Liquor Box]

Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).

I meant this particular beholder, who this thread has suggested is less switched on than most (perhaps due to being young)

[Jason]

Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18 , Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15, Knowledge (Arcana) +17 and very high Search and Spot (+21 and +22), usually Lawful Evil and CR13 for the MM beholder. Beholder dispositions are described as "hateful", "aggressive," "avaricious," and "xenophobic."

+1 to your point: beholder is a different species, isn't humanoid, and perhaps gender isn't even a thing for beholders.

3.5 beholders are indeed gender neutral biologically, according to Lords of Madness, and they reproduce asexually. Individual beholders like the Xanathar that have lots of dealings with other races have been referred to with gendered pronouns in the past ("he" in the case of the Xanathar).

[Psyren]

Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.

Tactically, without Sunny's AMF cone and FTS beam they would have bodied her in three rounds tops. Her poison bluff that worked on Lien wouldn't work on the Order, with two means of removing poison and possibly even the ability to identify it and thus call her bluff, neither of which the paladins had.

Now, as far as whether she was morally justified to use Sunny in a fight, everyone is going to have a different line they draw for that question I suspect.

[JonahFalcon]

I might want to add Serini befriended a beholder, who are canonically lawful evil violently paranoid monsters.

[Peelee]

I might want to add Serini befriended a beholder, who are canonically lawful evil violently paranoid monsters.

In Stickworld? Citation needed.

[elros]

According to Forgotten Realms, beholders reproduction cycle often left abandoned offspring, so I suspect Serini adopted one that was abandoned. I don't think Sunny is dumb, just naive and overly trusting.

[Fergie0044]

On the positive side, Serini does appear to care and value Sunny with comments such as "You doing OK?" and "You're taking too much fire". Given how prepared and competent she's been so far I'd guess Serini has a good grasp of how much punishment Sunny can take before it gets serious. Plus, as others have pointed out, from Serini's point of view Sunny (and the world) will be destroyed by the god eating horror if they fail.

[SkepticalSquid]

I feel like we need to take into account that this is taking place in a fantasy world. While bringing a child (if Sunny is a child) into a fight in real life would be unethical, in this world battle are much more frequent. What are the odds that Sunny, not just a resident of this world, but also a creature that most humanoids would immediately see as hostile, would be able to go their entire life without seeing battle? Serini may feel that it's part of her duty as Sunny's guardian to teach them to handle themself in a fight, because of the high likelihood that Sunny will be in a fight later in life.

It feels almost analogous to, in the real world, a parent teaching a child how to drive a car. Cars are dangerous, accidents are frequent, but in some parts of the world it is necessary to drive a car to go about your daily life (or, at least, it is much easier to live if you can drive). So, in those parts of the world, parents will teach their kids to drive so the kid will be prepared to some day drive a car alone. Some parents start teaching earlier than others. Sure, the legal age to start learning is 15 in my state, but growing up I had classmates at 10 or so who would brag about their parents letting them take the wheel on empty roads or off-road on a large property. I'm guessing that other people in the US have had similar experiences.

This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.

I agree with this. Serini could be curating fights that she thinks Sunny is ready for, so they can practice. It's like how when learning to drive, you often start in an empty parking lot, rather than going straight to a busy freeway.

Serini does appear to care and value Sunny with comments such as "You doing OK?" and "You're taking too much fire". Given how prepared and competent she's been so far I'd guess Serini has a good grasp of how much punishment Sunny can take before it gets serious.

This also reads to me like Serini is trying to teach Sunny. Serini thinks Sunny is ready for this fight, but is checking in with them, letting them know that she's paying attention to the situation. Unfortunately, fighting will be an inevitable part of Sunny's life, so Serini likely thinks that at least Sunny can learn how to fight back in a controlled environment, with Serini for backup.