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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post

    On a more general note the Rakata are now a part of the Disney canon as well thanks to an incredibly obscure reference buried in a series of articles about the Millennium Falcon.
    And the planet Rakata Prime was one of the first things to make it into the newcanon - in the TFA Visual Dictionary, on the galaxy map.
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    If we're talking about the Rakata, I would feel remiss in not mentioning The Mother Machine

    In Short, a piece of ancient Rakata technology that exists for the purpose of bioengineering on Bioengineering.

    The machine holds a database of the complete biological traits of a large number of sapient force-sensitive species.

    A nikto splicer by the name of Bolan speculates that the Rakata were trying to engineer a race with the best traits of all of those species... But the Mother Machine itself, which is run by a sapient AI, claims to have created most, if not all, sapient force-sensitive species. The Twi'leks, Zabrak, and Esh-Kha are mentioned by name.

    I don't know if the Mother MAchine is a reliable narrator, but it feels motherly affection for all races and hates the Rakata for enslaving them. Regardless, it claims that the Rakata were trying to figure out how Force-sensitivity worked to figure out why they themselves lost their force sensitivity.

    The Sith Inquisitor from The Old Republic ends up seeking out the Mother MAchine and using it to enhance themself to the point that they are at no risk of corruption or degeneration from channeling the Power of several powerful Darkside users at once.

    Note: You have two ways to go about this. The Lightside option is to enslave the machine and force it to do what you want. The Darkside option is to set it free.

    Considering that enslaving sapients is a dark side action and freeing slaves a light side action in every other circumstance, this raises some interesting questions.

    (If you free it, it eventually contacts you and says that it's going to create a new race based on your biology.)

    Does "creates and modifies force users" count as force-based technology?

    Note: The linked Wookkieepedia article assumes that the Sith Inquisitor was conically a Darksider, as is the case with most articles involving the Inquisitor. However, a DLC for the Old Republic heavily implies that they are canonically a Lightsider and the articles were never altered to match the later implications.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-08-10 at 06:49 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Note: You have two ways to go about this. The Lightside option is to enslave the machine and force it to do what you want. The Darkside option is to set it free.

    Considering that enslaving sapients is a dark side action and freeing slaves a light side action in every other circumstance, this raises some interesting questions.
    As much as I love Knights of the Old Republic, there were quite a few times where its Lightside/Darkside options were a bit dodgy. In this case, I think the implication was that the Mother Machine was going to go all mass genocide on both forces on Belsavis, so slamming the cell shut on her was going to save more lives. Probably their mistake was tying it into fixing the Inquisitor, as it makes more sense if you divorce the free/not decision from forcing her to fix the Inquisitor.
    Last edited by Glorthindel; 2021-08-10 at 08:04 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    A non-Force User has no problem switching a captured lightsaber off and on (Grievous, Han) and normally they're the same colour as they were when they were created (hence Grievous having both blue and green lightsabers, instead of all the same colour).


    Plus, even after Vader is declared a Sith Lord by Palpatine, his lightsaber blade is exactly the same colour (duel on Mustafar).


    The newcanon's idea, is that a Sith has to put a crystal through a specific "bleeding" ritual, to change the colour of the blade. Vader didn't have time to do this - moments after he turned to the Dark Side, he was sent to the Temple, then to Mustafar. Then Obi-Wan took his lightsaber, so after he was cyborgised, he had to do the ritual with a captured lightsaber crystal, rather than his own personal one.
    if you subscribe to the idea that a lightsaber crystal has some level of sentience or agency, then "bleeding" it is the equivalent of a complete mental rape

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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Not quite a technology, but the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Zahn included the yslamari... sessile lizards who could restrict the abilities of force users within a radius, that multiple yslamari in a space reinforced and expanded. Thrawn and a few other players used yslamari for defense against Force users.
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Not quite a technology, but the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Zahn included the yslamari... sessile lizards who could restrict the abilities of force users within a radius, that multiple yslamari in a space reinforced and expanded. Thrawn and a few other players used yslamari for defense against Force users.
    Yet, oddly, after the Thrawn trilogy concluded they are never heard of again. Even in the later Duology no one uses Ysalamiri. You would expect there to be a criminal market for Ysalamiri as every two-bit smuggler, spice lord or warlord scrambles to adopt a Jedi-B-gone pet, but they just ... vanish. Why? Did the Sith exterminate the species?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Yet, oddly, after the Thrawn trilogy concluded they are never heard of again. Even in the later Duology no one uses Ysalamiri. You would expect there to be a criminal market for Ysalamiri as every two-bit smuggler, spice lord or warlord scrambles to adopt a Jedi-B-gone pet, but they just ... vanish. Why? Did the Sith exterminate the species?
    Thrawn's Empire of the Hand forces use the Ysalamiri on Niruan in the duology against Luke and Mara, so they don't completely disappear. In Legends their homeworld of Myrkr was later conquered by the Yuuzhan Vong and they may have exterminated all or most of the ysalamiri since they were known to have meddled with the ecology of the planet, which would explain why none of them show up post-NJO.
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    sessile
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Yet, oddly, after the Thrawn trilogy concluded they are never heard of again. Even in the later Duology no one uses Ysalamiri. You would expect there to be a criminal market for Ysalamiri as every two-bit smuggler, spice lord or warlord scrambles to adopt a Jedi-B-gone pet, but they just ... vanish. Why? Did the Sith exterminate the species?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Because every two-bit smuggler doesn't really deal with the Jedi, even at the absolute height of their influence. And after the Empire? They're on the critically endangered species list, in a galaxy with billions of inhabited planets, not counting asteroid bases, space stations, etc. etc.

    Would you like to buy this magic talisman that keeps the US Marshals away? Keeping in mind, of course, that there's only one Marshall in the country, your only crimes are robbing the local gas stations for petty cash, and the only evidence you have that it works are a reports of dead general of a foreign military who never actually publicized it. Also, the talisman is made out of wood from a tree that only grows in one specific grove in backwoods Mississippi and nowhere else and will mold up and become useless unless you have proper daily care for it.

    Or does that sound kind of insane to you?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-10 at 06:56 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Because every two-bit smuggler doesn't really deal with the Jedi, even at the absolute height of their influence. And after the Empire? They're on the critically endangered species list, in a galaxy with billions of inhabited planets, not counting asteroid bases, space stations, etc. etc.

    Would you like to buy this magic talisman that keeps the US Marshals away? Keeping in mind, of course, that there's only one Marshall in the country, your only crimes are robbing the local gas stations for petty cash, and the only evidence you have that it works are a reports of dead general of a foreign military who never actually publicized it. Also, the talisman is made out of wood from a tree that only grows in one specific grove in backwoods Mississippi and nowhere else and will mold up and become useless unless you have proper daily care for it.

    Or does that sound kind of insane to you?
    There are circumstances where the Ysalamiri would be very useful. In particular they are perfectly suited to building a force-user prison. Keeping force users captive has always been a problem in Star Wars, since it's very difficult to hold someone who can tear walls down with their mind and persuade guards to let them out and so on (this has shown up in live action, too, in the Mandalorian, Grogu tosses stormtroopers around when they put him in a cell). It would make sense for a large government like the New Republic or Imperial Remnant to build a prison either on Mykyr itself or just in some location where they could import ysalamiri wholesale for the purpose of confining force users (not just Jedi, there are quite a few dark side cults out there that regularly produce empowered criminals).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There are circumstances where the Ysalamiri would be very useful. In particular they are perfectly suited to building a force-user prison. Keeping force users captive has always been a problem in Star Wars, since it's very difficult to hold someone who can tear walls down with their mind and persuade guards to let them out and so on (this has shown up in live action, too, in the Mandalorian, Grogu tosses stormtroopers around when they put him in a cell). It would make sense for a large government like the New Republic or Imperial Remnant to build a prison either on Mykyr itself or just in some location where they could import ysalamiri wholesale for the purpose of confining force users (not just Jedi, there are quite a few dark side cults out there that regularly produce empowered criminals).
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    I seem to recall that the crazy Jedi in this series are kept captive in a ysalamiri-bubbled prison/hospital inside of the Jedi temple in an attempt to remove their insanity, though it doesn't work and they eventually have to encase them in carbonite.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Learned a new word today.


    Because every two-bit smuggler doesn't really deal with the Jedi, even at the absolute height of their influence. And after the Empire? They're on the critically endangered species list, in a galaxy with billions of inhabited planets, not counting asteroid bases, space stations, etc. etc.

    Would you like to buy this magic talisman that keeps the US Marshals away? Keeping in mind, of course, that there's only one Marshall in the country, your only crimes are robbing the local gas stations for petty cash, and the only evidence you have that it works are a reports of dead general of a foreign military who never actually publicized it. Also, the talisman is made out of wood from a tree that only grows in one specific grove in backwoods Mississippi and nowhere else and will mold up and become useless unless you have proper daily care for it.

    Or does that sound kind of insane to you?
    There are more kinds of force users in the galaxy than just Jedi. Sure, if you're a small two-bit gangster you're not going to want something so expensive for so little return. But if your gang is planetary or larger -- and there are a LOT of planets in the GFFA -- you're going to want at least one Ysalamir for your own personal protection. Unless you're absolutely, totally confident in your ability to resist Force Techniques like Mind Trick unaided.

    The fact that there's only one source of it in the galaxy should make that planet akin to Arrakis in the Dune Universe. What ysalamir offer is one of the most valuable commodities in the galaxy, very expensive because it is rare. As one example, if Ysalamir existed on Coruscant in Episode 3 the throne room scene in which Senator Palpatine faces off with four Jedi would have gone down very differently; the arrest could have been made by ordinary police officers, and Palpatine would not have been 'too dangerous to leave alive'.

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Some authors make more use of them than others.

    Besides Zahn, in stories set between TTT and HoT, there's Stackpole (used them in I, Jedi), and Kristine Kathryn Rusch (used them in The New Rebellion).
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    There are more kinds of force users in the galaxy than just Jedi. Sure, if you're a small two-bit gangster you're not going to want something so expensive for so little return. But if your gang is planetary or larger -- and there are a LOT of planets in the GFFA -- you're going to want at least one Ysalamir for your own personal protection. Unless you're absolutely, totally confident in your ability to resist Force Techniques like Mind Trick unaided.

    The fact that there's only one source of it in the galaxy should make that planet akin to Arrakis in the Dune Universe. What ysalamir offer is one of the most valuable commodities in the galaxy, very expensive because it is rare. As one example, if Ysalamir existed on Coruscant in Episode 3 the throne room scene in which Senator Palpatine faces off with four Jedi would have gone down very differently; the arrest could have been made by ordinary police officers, and Palpatine would not have been 'too dangerous to leave alive'.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    And the other Force users are also very rare. It's jsut not worth worrying about for the vast, vast majority of organizations, even assuming they know about the ysalimiri, which they almost certainly don't.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-11 at 11:07 AM.
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    Yup - when the Cavrilhu Pirates use their anti-Jedi trap on Luke, ysalamiri aren't seen. It tends to be the protagonists, who already know of them thanks to TTT, who use them (Luke in I, Jedi, Karrde in A New Rebellion)

    According to Wookieepedia's ysalamiri article, the crimelord Tyber Zaan used them. But the Zaan Consortium is portrayed as one of the most powerful organisations in the galaxy, capable of hijacking Super Star Destroyers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And the other Force users are also very rare. It's jsut not worth worrying about for the vast, vast majority of organizations, even assuming they know about the ysalimiri, which they almost certainly don't.
    We'll see how long that holds up in the Sequel Trilogy time frame, where since Episode 8 Force Sensitivity is supposed to be extremely common, as shown in the scene with Broom Boy. Although I don't think Ysalamir are nucanon (yet), so perhaps the question is still moot.

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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    We'll see how long that holds up in the Sequel Trilogy time frame, where since Episode 8 Force Sensitivity is supposed to be extremely common, as shown in the scene with Broom Boy. Although I don't think Ysalamir are nucanon (yet), so perhaps the question is still moot.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    It's not supposed to be extremely common, though, even with that scene we explicitly see the rare people who have it. We just happened to see the rare kid who could use it. That does not equate to "extremely common".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-12 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's not supposed to be extremely common, though, even with that scene we explicitly see the rare people who have it. We just happened to see the rare kid who could use it. That does not equate to "extremely common".
    I thought it was assumed there was always a certain number of new force sensitive that would spawn in the Galaxy to sustain the Jedi population. So I don't see what's different

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    A reasonable estimate of Force sensitivity in Star Wars is that it occurs at a rate of around one in one million sapient beings (with some variation between species). However, the number of Force users is considerably below that, since most Force sensitives are marginal talents in the Force at best and will manifest no abilities untrained and even if trained will be fairly weak. The number of Jedi and Sith is a small fraction of the number of Force users who are mostly scattered across countless small and localized Force traditions linked to individual species or communities.

    However, there are still 100,000,000,000,000,000 sapient beings in the galaxy. That means there are 100 billion Force sensitives. If one out of every thousand of those is trained there are 100 million Force users and if even one percent of those form the elite of the Jedi Order (meaning they reach knighthood, which only a fraction of those trained do) the Jedi could be one million knights strong. And the evidence suggests that at various points in the 'Old Republic Era' this was true. The PT Era Jedi Order, with its 10,000 knights and masters, is an order that observed at the end of a 1000 year decline. The rate of decline necessary to drop from 1 million to 10,000 over that time period is actually quite small.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    I thought it was assumed there was always a certain number of new force sensitive that would spawn in the Galaxy to sustain the Jedi population. So I don't see what's different
    The certain number can be one in a quintillion (relatively rare) or one in a million (exceedingly common). That does not matter from a "were following Character X, who is Force Sensitive" standpoint. It absolutely matters from a "my two-bit smuggling operation needs this obscure creature to protect us from all the force users!" Which is the entire basis of this tangent we're on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    ) the Jedi could be one million knights strong. And the evidence suggests that at various points in the 'Old Republic Era' this was true.
    Source? Most of Legends tended to point towards the Prequel Era Jedi at being at the height of the orders prominence. I'm not as up to date on current Canon, but I've never seen a anything to indicate a million-Jedi-strong Order.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-12 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Source? Most of Legends tended to point towards the Prequel Era Jedi at being at the height of the orders prominence. I'm not as up to date on current Canon, but I've never seen a anything to indicate a million-Jedi-strong Order.
    "A key element of a Knights of the Old Republic campaign is the many Force-using characters active throughot the galaxy at this time. Unlike campaigns set in the classic era Jedi, Sith, and other Foruce-using groups are spread throughout the galaxy." - Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, SAGA edition RPG.

    Moreover, if you actually play SWTOR you'll end up on planets with hundreds of Jedi or Sith npcs, and a single character playing through the game will slay hundreds of Jedi/Sith by themselves, sometimes dozens in a single mission (the Red Reaper, a vessel belonging to a single Sith Lord, had hundreds of Sith onboard). It's simply impossible for a PT size Jedi Order to function in a galaxy presented in games like KOTOR and SWTOR. Keep in mind that even with a million Jedi Knights, there's still not even a single Jedi for every 70 planets represented in the Empire.

    On the Disney canon side of things its very clear from the High Republic that the Jedi were much more powerful and numerous in that scenario a mere two hundred years prior to the Prequels.

    And of course, in AotC itself, Mace Windu gives the line "Jedi we have left," prior to assembling the Geonosis strike team, which is the single best source for declining Jedi numbers.

    The PT Era Jedi may have been at the height of their political connectivity because they'd been roped into serving as the Republic's special forces (a situation which was not to the benefit of the Jedi or the Republic and ultimately contributed heavily to the rise of the Empire), but there is every indication that it was not even close to the height of the numeric strength.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The certain number can be one in a quintillion (relatively rare) or one in a million (exceedingly common). That does not matter from a "were following Character X, who is Force Sensitive" standpoint. It absolutely matters from a "my two-bit smuggling operation needs this obscure creature to protect us from all the force users!" Which is the entire basis of this tangent we're on.
    Well, in addition unless a force user Order finds the individual and explicitly teach him to exploit his gifts, the young Force User will only use it subconsciously and there won't be any outward signs of space magic.

    These people are just super charismatic, gifted and lucky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    "A key element of a Knights of the Old Republic campaign is the many Force-using characters active throughot the galaxy at this time. Unlike campaigns set in the classic era Jedi, Sith, and other Foruce-using groups are spread throughout the galaxy." - Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, SAGA edition RPG.

    Moreover, if you actually play SWTOR you'll end up on planets with hundreds of Jedi or Sith npcs, and a single character playing through the game will slay hundreds of Jedi/Sith by themselves, sometimes dozens in a single mission (the Red Reaper, a vessel belonging to a single Sith Lord, had hundreds of Sith onboard). It's simply impossible for a PT size Jedi Order to function in a galaxy presented in games like KOTOR and SWTOR. Keep in mind that even with a million Jedi Knights, there's still not even a single Jedi for every 70 planets represented in the Empire.

    On the Disney canon side of things its very clear from the High Republic that the Jedi were much more powerful and numerous in that scenario a mere two hundred years prior to the Prequels.

    And of course, in AotC itself, Mace Windu gives the line "Jedi we have left," prior to assembling the Geonosis strike team, which is the single best source for declining Jedi numbers.

    The PT Era Jedi may have been at the height of their political connectivity because they'd been roped into serving as the Republic's special forces (a situation which was not to the benefit of the Jedi or the Republic and ultimately contributed heavily to the rise of the Empire), but there is every indication that it was not even close to the height of the numeric strength.
    Taking that to mean there were a million Jedi seems like an incredibly liberal reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Well, in addition unless a force user Order finds the individual and explicitly teach him to exploit his gifts, the young Force User will only use it subconsciously and there won't be any outward signs of space magic.

    These people are just super charismatic, gifted and lucky
    Luke, as much as we saw him as a farmboy, was not charismatic or lucky. And only gifted in the sense of being a good pilot (who hung out among good pilots, such as Biggs). No reason to believe anything he achieved until he met Kenobi was influenced by the Force.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-12 at 09:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Taking that to mean there were a million Jedi seems like an incredibly liberal reading.
    The thing is, a million-strong Jedi Order is still, abysmally tiny compared to the scope of the galaxy. There were over a billion settled planets, and 70 million planets of sufficient importance that they qualified for representation in the Empire in some fashion (which is generally presumed to mean the Empire had a garrison there, so even a planet as consequential as Tatooine lies outside that group). So even if you have a million Jedi each and every Jedi has to cover an area of 70 major planets plus hundreds of minor settlements, smuggler bases, uncontacted aliens, and more. On a per capita basis, one million Jedi means that there's a single Jedi for every 100 billion people in the galaxy (note the PT Era Jedi were trying to hold the galaxy together with 1 Jedi per 10 trillion). That's a pathetic level of coverage - a single Jedi would need to cover 12 Earths!

    It would not be unreasonable to claim a max size Jedi Order of ten million or even one hundred million knights. One million is actually a very modest compromise.
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Actually the Empire did establish a small garrison in Mos Eisley, in both Legends and Newcanon (Complete Locations, one of the books revised and republished for the newcanon, shows it).
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Yet, oddly, after the Thrawn trilogy concluded they are never heard of again. Even in the later Duology no one uses Ysalamiri. You would expect there to be a criminal market for Ysalamiri as every two-bit smuggler, spice lord or warlord scrambles to adopt a Jedi-B-gone pet, but they just ... vanish. Why? Did the Sith exterminate the species?
    Headcanon: Not exterminate. Accidentally drive extinct.

    While the nutrient frames will keep yslamari alive, the depletion of their population by sending them off-world meant that their predators soon hunted them to extinction; especially when you consider the mass death of yslamari at Wayland and on various destroyed Star Destroyers. Meanwhile, undetected environmental requirements meant that the yslamari were not able to reproduce in space. There's now a small farm of yslamari jealously guarded by Imperial Remnants, at an unknown, off-Myrkyr location. But sessile lizards also reproduce slowly, so they're in terribly short supply.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Headcanon: Not exterminate. Accidentally drive extinct.

    While the nutrient frames will keep yslamari alive, the depletion of their population by sending them off-world meant that their predators soon hunted them to extinction; especially when you consider the mass death of yslamari at Wayland and on various destroyed Star Destroyers. Meanwhile, undetected environmental requirements meant that the yslamari were not able to reproduce in space. There's now a small farm of yslamari jealously guarded by Imperial Remnants, at an unknown, off-Myrkyr location. But sessile lizards also reproduce slowly, so they're in terribly short supply.
    is that all head-canon? If so, it's some very cool world-building.

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    Brian P.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    is that all head-canon? If so, it's some very cool world-building.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    It is headcanon, but it's also sensible lore

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Star Wars - Force-based technologies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Headcanon: Not exterminate. Accidentally drive extinct.

    While the nutrient frames will keep yslamari alive, the depletion of their population by sending them off-world meant that their predators soon hunted them to extinction; especially when you consider the mass death of yslamari at Wayland and on various destroyed Star Destroyers. Meanwhile, undetected environmental requirements meant that the yslamari were not able to reproduce in space. There's now a small farm of yslamari jealously guarded by Imperial Remnants, at an unknown, off-Myrkyr location. But sessile lizards also reproduce slowly, so they're in terribly short supply.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    is that all head-canon? If so, it's some very cool world-building.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Headcanon in that I don't believe it's actually canon... just something that makes sense, and lets them be present, but super-rare.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

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