A Mundane Melee Master

[Anthrowhale]

In the spirit of doing impossible things, I've been fooling around with a strict mundane build trying to find something that appears mostly viable over all levels. Does anyone see improvements or weaknesses not listed below?

"Mostly viable" here means able to deliver damage equal to half or more hit points of the average same-CR monster at each level, with defense (initiative, AC, saves, grapple, etc...) capable of withstanding typical monsters, and the ability to rapidly recover from damage or conditions.

"Strict mundane" means neither having nor benefiting from magic items, Spells, SLA, or Supernatural abilities on either a daily or backstory basis. For example, we do not allow Spirit Lion Totem barbarian or exalted feats since they are supernatural abilities.

To be clear about the challenge, ideally over levels 1-20 we want three things:

1. Offense capable of inflicting 1/2 the hp in damage of CR=ECL monsters in a round.
2. Defense capable of typically (say 75%) withstanding CR=ECL monsters for a round.
3. Zero reliance on, use, or having of magic.

All WotC content + dungeon/dragon are fair game. Using variant rules, having-but-not-using magic, or other WotC-licensed content seems allowable but not particularly compelling---think of it as an elegance penalty.

This might seem impossible, but what follows is one way.

Spoiler: Race and stats

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Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species) provides several significant benefits:

1. +8 Str/+4 Dex/+4 Con/+4 Wis gives significant boosts to a wide range of stats.
2. +9 natural armor makes melee combat much more survivable than is typical in the early game and is a huge benefit throughout.
3. Blindsight 120' and Darkvision 60' provide excellent all-around senses for piercing illusions, including invisibility.
4. Large size provides reach and grapple resistance, which can be a bane of melee types.

The three monstrous humanoid racial hit dice are not exciting, but they provide full BAB (melee compatible) and good will and reflex saves, addressing a weakness of melee types.

Half-Ogre (Dragon #313) is an LA+0 template on large creatures which provides Natural Armor+2(very helpful) and Strength +4 (very helpful) at the cost of Int-2 (not great, Int 12 is good enough), and Cha-2 (fine).

Using a 32 point buy, we'll start with Str 28, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 6. Level bonuses will go to strength.

Starting out at level 3, you are extraordinarily strong, extraordinarily hard to hit (natural armor+11), and extraordinarily hard to surprise (blindsight 60' and darkvision 60'). Adding to this a wide variety of mundane classes enables picking up a wide variety of benefits and good saving throws.

Spoiler: classes

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These are taken in order after the 3 monstrous humanoid hit dice.

Rogue 3 (Lightbringer Penetrating Strike[Expedition to Castle Ravenloft], Poison Use[Drow of the Underdark]) provides quick access to a wide variety of skills, 2d6 sneak attack, and evasion. The poison use ACF provides some combat utility although it tapers off at higher levels where most things are immune to poison. The penetrating strike ACF makes half of your sneak attack apply to creatures that are flanked but normally immune to sneak attack.

Fighter 2 (hit & run fighter[Drow of the Underdark]) provides two feats, +2 to initiative, and a small amount of extra damage against flat-footed enemies.

Swordsage 2 provides access to Shadow Jaunt (= 50' teleport), Flashing Sun (=1 extra attack, with all attacks at -2), Assassin's Stance (= +2d6 Sneak attack), Wisdom to AC in light armor, initiative+1, and good reflex and will saves.

Crusader 2 provides access to Martial Spirit (= you or ally heal 2 hp/hit), Thicket of Blades (=AOO for any movement), and White Raven Tactics (= change allies initiative to yours-1).

Warblade 2 provides access to Iron Heart Surge (=end any condition), Moment of Perfect Mind (=concentration check instead of will save), and Action Before Thought (=concentration check instead of Reflex save).

Swashbuckler 2 provides only modest benefit, primarily through an increase in saves.

Barbarian 1 provides access to Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana) for an extra attack and Fast movement.

Ranger 2 caps off the progression with good skill access and two-weapon fighting.

By level 20, you have BAB+18, the ability to heal and remove conditions, excellent saves, a solid armor class, and sneak attack damage that applies even to the sneak attack immune. A careful choice of feats exploits this even further, greatly increasing sneak attack relevance, AC, and providing a broad spectrum of resistances.

Spoiler: feats

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1. Combat Reflexes // This is a prereq, but it's a very solid feat particularly at early levels, particularly for a large creature, particularly for a creature with a good dexterity, and particularly with a two-handed reach weapon.
3. Darkstalker(Lords of Madness) //The large natural armor bonus is starting to wear out as an edge, so emphasizing sneaking helps you control combat engagements.
6. Craven (Champions of Ruin) // A huge bonus to sneak attack damage at just the right time to keep damage output high.
Fighter 1: Double Team // You and your rider both take this to trigger sneak attack reliably.
Fighter 2: Close-Quarters Combat //large and strong isn't enough to keep the grapplers away, so this helps.
9. Sculpt Self(Dragon #304) //Burn XP for "prestige race alterations". There doesn't seem to be anything limiting you from taking many different prestige race alterations except for the (considerable) XP cost and limiting to strictly mundane choices. So, for about 45K xp, you can pick up

1. Soul: +1 (inherent) to Cha/Str, +4(insight) to Spot/Listen/Sense Motive, +4(Resistance) to Will
2. Gadget: +1(inherent) to any/any, +4(Competence) to K[Architecture & Engineering], +4(resistance) Fort saves
3. Wave: Swim/Escape Artist+4(Competence), opponent grapples/pin/damage-4, Breathe Water, Immune critical hits / sneak attacks.

12. Combat Expertise //The easiest way to keep armor class relevant into high levels.
15. Improved Combat Expertise //Keeps you AC relevant
18. Allied Defense //Share your AC with the party

A few skills are extremely useful to a mundane character that wants to survive.

Spoiler: Skills

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There are enough skill points for just over 5 skills. 5 obvious choices are Hide+27/Move Silently+30, which grants the ability to surprise others, Spot+34 which prevents you from being surprised, Concentration+30 which can be used for Will and Reflex saving throws, and Tumble+29 which enables flexible movement around a battlefield.

Other choices exist---for example you could perform more of a scout role by picking up Search/Disable Device and keeping Trapfinding in the Rogue levels or a face role with Diplomacy/Sense Motive.

Keeping these skills near maximum ranks is relatively easy using the early Rogue level for in-class access which enables the retraining from PHB2 to allow you shift up to 4 skill points to any skill that was previously a class skill.

It's nigh impossible to spend wealth by level on a mundane character, but 200K appears possible. Perhaps the remainder could be spent on exotic poisons?

Spoiler: items

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Armor
Large Reinforced(Dragon#358) Mithral Chain Shirt
Large Lightweight(Dragon#358) Mithril Dastana
Large Lightweight(Dragon#358) Mithril Chahar-Aina

Melee Weapons
Large Razor Sharp(Dragon#358) Blue Ice(Frostburn) Poison Ring(Dragon Compendium) //Damage+2, half weight
Large Razor Sharp Adamantine Poison Ring //Bypass DR/Adamantine
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Cold Iron Poison Ring //Bypass DR/Cold Iron
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Kheferu (Sandstorm) Poison Ring //Bypass DR/Magic for [Earth]
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Calomel (Magic of Eberon) Poison Ring //Bypass DR/Magic for [Fire]
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Thinaun (Complete Warrior) Poison Ring //Absorb Soul
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Frystalline (Book of Exalted Deeds) Poison Ring //Bypass Dr/Good
Medium Razor Sharp masterwork Jade Glaive //The point here is threatening for the purpose of Double Team and/or Combat Expertise. The Jade (Oriental Adventures) is in case we have incorporeals to fight.
Large Razor Sharp masterwork Jade Two-handed Sword //Again, for the incorporeals.

Ranged Weapons
Large Long-Range(Dragon #358) Elvencraft(Races of the Wild) Serrenwood(Book of Exalted Deeds) Masterwork Composite+12 Longbow
Arrow, Serpentstongue(Races of the Wild), Serrated(Dragon #358), Darkwood, Adamantine,Large // Bypass DR/Adamantine
Arrow, Serpentstongue, Serrated, Darkwood, Coldiron,Large // Bypass DR/Cold Iron
Arrow, Serpentstongue, Serrated, Darkwood, Kheferu, Large // Bypass DR/Magic for [Earth]
Arrow, Serpentstongue, Serrated, Darkwood, Calomel, Large // Bypass DR/Magic for [Fire]

Aboleth Mucus (Savage Specie 46) //Thrown Grenadelike weapon w/ DC 19 Fort save or lose the ability to breath air for 3 hours
Red Tidewater (Planar Handbook 77) //Thrown touch weapon that blinds for 2d4 rounds
Net //Eating the exotic weapon penalty the hard way.

Other notable items
Oil //A nonmagical attack for swarms
Exotic Saddle, Military //you are a good steed for a medium or smaller creature.

Grafts (Fiend Folio mostly)
Antenna Graft // 60' tremorsense, yet another special sense
Hauling Back // x1.5 carry capacity, an alternative to bags of holding.
Goring Horn // 1d8 gore attack, Improved Bull Rush, an extra sneak attack delivery system
Grasping Mandible //2d6 bite attack, sneak attack e
Poison Fangs // Fort DC 17 1d6 Con/1d6 Con with bite attack
Long Arm // Reach+5', so 15' now
Strong Leg // Con+2(Inherent)
Sites (Complete Scoundrel)
Otyugh Hole[Iron Will] //Will+2
Iron Wyrm Vault[Stealthy] //Hide/Move Silently+2
Court of Thieves[Lucky Start] //Reroll initiative 1/day

Altogether, we end up with a final result at level 20 that is robustly capable of causing damage and robust against monster attacks.

Spoiler: Stat Block

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Large Monstrous Humanoid Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species)
Hit Points 205 immune to critical hits/sneak attacks, delayed damage 5
Initiative 7 Spot 35 Darkvision 60' Immune to Flank Blindsight 120' Tremorsense 60'
AC 37 (Natural armor+14, Armor+7, Dexterity+4, Wisdom+3, Size-1) rising to 58 with Improved Combat Expertise + Whirling Frenzy
Fort 28
Refl 19 Evasion +Action before Thought 30
Will 17 +Moment of Perfect Mind 30

Speed 40 Swim 40
Space 10' Reach 15' (30' with glaive)

Attacks: 30/25/20/15 poison ring dealing 49.5 = 1d2+2(blue ice)+34(sneak attack)+12(strength) +24 Gore 44.5 = 1d8+34(sneak attack)+6(strength) +24 Bite 47 = 2d6+34(sneak attack)+6(strength) +24 Tail 1d4+34(sneak attack)+6(strength) There are many other attack routines as well:

1. Two poison rings + Whirling Frenzy + Flashing Sun for 7 poison ring attacks with more strength.
2. Emerald Razor Glaive attack with a reach of 30'
3. Bow attack
4. Incorporeal attack with the Serrenwood Bow, including use as a quarterstaff in melee.
5. Decreasing attack by 18 to increase AC by 18.

Grapple: +34 or +38+poison ring attack damage to resist grapple

Abilities:
Str 34 =16+8(race)+4(template)+5(level)+1(inherent)
Dex 17 =12+4(race)+1(inherent)
Con 20 =14+4(race)+2(inherent)
Int 13 = 14-2(template)+1(inherent)
Wis 18 = 14+4(race)
Cha 7 = 8-2(template)+1(inherent)

The ability to cause relevant damage actually works over all levels.

Spoiler: damage vs monster by level

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Comparing total damage for the baseliine routine to a target of CR = level creature hp/2 from level 3-20, we see:
total damage Target
24 1.74
28 1.19
30 1.08
41 1.18
68 1.57
75 1.56
93 1.42
120 1.76
124 1.51
159 1.63
193 1.97
204 2.08
197 1.75
205 1.71
216 1.76
267 1.77
260 1.46
285 1.39

These numbers hold up reasonably well even when using Improved Combat Expertise(up to +18 AC/-18 attack) to increase AC since average touch AC is only 9. They also hold up reasonably well against damage reduction since DR 15 is a small fraction of damage per hit. Not taken into account here is the possibility of taking advantage of various accrued abilities at the higher levels (two weapon fighting with poison rings, Flashing Sun maneuver, Whirling Frenzy).

Looking through the list of necessary magic items there is an answer to each of them (and a few more).

Spoiler: Necessary Magic Item Alternatives

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Flight: Shadow Jaunt allows you to fake it every other round with a 50' teleport.
Mind Blank: Moment of Perfect Mind gives a Concentration check at +30, hit points are high enough to deal with power word spells, and even the base will save of +18 is not shabby. There is no defense against scrying, but at least most creatures don't scry.
Stun Negation: A fortitude save of +28 with a luck reroll.
Daze negation: A fortitude save of +28 with a luck reroll.
Fear Immunity: Moment of Perfect Mind gives a Concentration check at +30. Even the Wyrm Black Dragon has a DC of only 31.
True Seeing: Blindsight 120' pierces most illusions and Tremorsense 60' allows seeing around corners.
Miss chances: AC can ramp up to 60 (fighting defensively + Improved Combat Expertise + Whirling Frenzy) while still hitting with high damage touch attacks.
Tactical teleportation: Shadow Jaunt
Immunity to Death Effects/Energy Drain: A fortitude save of +28 with a luck reroll and Iron Heart Surge
Freedom of Movement: Shadow Jaunt, a high grapple bonus, and about +88 to resist grapples
Extradimensional Storage: 2796 lbs is a light load.
Dispel Magic and counters: No source of dispel magic, but at least you don't need counters.
Initiative: Dexterity 18, Hit&Run Fighter, Swordsage.
Special Senses: Darkvision 60', Blindsight 120', and Tremorsense 60'
Other oddball negative conditions: Iron Heart Surge
Heal damage out of combat: spar with poison rings while in Martial Spirit stance.

This build is fairly particular but there are a few variations on the strategy.

Spoiler: Variations

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The Island of Blades stance provides an alternative way to flank-without-flanking. Here, we use double team since it allows the stance to be used on assassin's stance for extra damage, but you could free up 2 feats by switching to Island of Blades.

Some of the classes are important but there is room to swap out some levels for Knight or Battle Dancer, for example. There are also a few prestige classes that might fit in. This might be worthwhile, in a context where multiclass penalties do not apply.

If level buyoff is allowed, the Winged creature template (LA+2) is very useful for true flight and the dexterity bonus. Similarly, the first level of Half Dragon savage progression provides some nice complementary bonuses.

It's entirely viable to avoid dependence on Dragon Magazine --- Half Ogre and Sculpt Self add but are nonessential. Avoiding Dragon Compendium is more difficult, but it appears possible via Island of Blades + Master Thrower 5 in a party context. This approach would work better with poison.

Emphasizing Iajutsu Focus and approaches to making enemies flat footed via maneuvers, initiative, or skill tricks is obviously complementary.

The generic warrior is very useful due to direct access to chosen skills and sneak attack. However, it's a variant which is not supposed to be used in the context of other base classes.

From Thurbane: you can get true flight if flaws are allowed using Dragontouch, Dragon Wings, and Improved Dragon Wings.

The build is not designed around charging, but it's possible to get a full attack on a charge relatively easily using the snowtiger berserker feat.

Working through this with people, several rules questions came up.

Spoiler: Rules Questions

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Spoiler: martial maneuvers/stances from Bo9S are extraordinary by default

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The general rule is given on Bo9S page 40:

Unless the description of the specific maneuver or stance says otherwise, treat it as an extraordinary ability.

This means that many abilities like Martial Spirit or Iron Heart Surge are extraordinary abilities even if the ability to heal or remove conditions seems magical.

Spoiler: Shadow Jaunt is not magical

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ToB page 49 says:

... some Shadow Hand maneuvers employ the supernatural cold and darkness of pure shadow.

and several of the shadowhand maneuvers say:

This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Shadow Jaunt however does not say this so it is an extraordinary ability. Neither does Shadow Stride or Shadow Blink for that matter, so this doesn't appear to be an accident.

Spoiler: Cross-class skills at class rates

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The retraining rules in PHBII page 194 explicitly allow you transfer up to 4 skill points from one skill to any other which is or was a class skill.

Subtract up to 4 skill ranks from one skill and add an equal number o franks to any one other skill... The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes...

Spoiler: Iron Heart Surge removes negative levels

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Iron Heart Surge says

When you use this maneuver, select one ... condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.

When a character has negative level, the relevant condition is Energy Drained.

More generally, IHS can remove a large number (but not all) conditions. Some conditions (i.e. knocked down or blown away) don't have enough duration and some (i.e. dead, helpless, petrified) don't allow the character to take actions.

In the discussion, several other approaches came up.

Spoiler: Alternative approaches

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1. Level Buyoff Skirmishing Swift Hunter possibly with Crushing Strike (Pabelfly)
2. A martial arts master (Zarvistic)
3. Sneak Attack, Windup, Master Thrower, Boomerang Daze, Class Rainbow

[Darg]

Human Monk 12/sneak attack fighter 7/rogue 1

Feats: unbalancing strike, lion tribe warrior, stunning blow, craven, mantis leap, improved natural attack

16 BAB

abilities: 22/12/12/8/16/8

UAS 3d6 +12 (str mantis leap) + 20 craven + 5d6 SA
Average damage on a SA is 60 while nonSA is 22.5

Lion tribe gives full attack on a charge, mantis leap (taken as is) gives up to 2 charges, flurry give 2 extra full BAB attacks

If we assume everything hits it does 720 damage a round or 270 without sneak attack. Unbalancing strike makes it unlikely the target is not vulnerable to SA damage for at least part of the attacks and gives +2 to hit when it does.

[Anthrowhale]

... If we assume everything hits ...

Yeah, this is the problem. If I understand right, the attack is at +22 which makes a Balor's base of AC 39 (with Unholy Aura up) reduce the expected damage to about 62 with sneak attack. This is typical at these levels---a Pit Fiend is at AC 40 or 44 with Unholy Aura, and a Black Wyrm is at AC 39.

If you use touch attacks (via Unorthodox Flurry[Poison Ring]?), you'll be dealing with touch AC (Balor 20, Pit Fiend 21, Black Wyrm 6). But how do you trigger sneak attack reliably? Without that, dealing 7 damage/hit is not very compelling.

[pabelfly]

Pounce is an extraordinary ability, not a supernatural one. Anthro Baleen Whale also has extraordinary abilities in the form of Blindsight and Hold Breath, so I'm not seeing how you're meeting your own self-imposed challenge.

[Doctor Despair]

Pounce is an extraordinary ability, not a supernatural one. Anthro Baleen Whale also has extraordinary abilities in the form of Blindsight and Hold Breath, so I'm not seeing how you're meeting your own self-imposed challenge.

To be fair, ex abilities are supposedly allowed under this challenge, I think so the Anthro Whale's ex abilities wouldn't disqualify it.

If we're ignoring racial abilities, a Troll Blooded Half-Undead (Gheden) Tainted Blood Fire Gnome (LA+2) has a few racial SLAs, but is immune to damage apart from Searing Spell'd fire damage as a function of extraordinary qualities, obviating any further investment into HP or AC. Of course, there's a host of other ways to disable a creature (ability damage, ability drain, various SoD/SoL effects, grappling) that you'd still need to find answers for. Pumping saves and getting rerolls as OP did is a fair response.

[pabelfly]

To be fair, ex abilities are supposedly allowed under this challenge, I think so the Anthro Whale's ex abilities wouldn't disqualify it.

No, the OP said that Pounce wasn't an allowed ability and I'm not getting how it isn't allowed but his build includes a race that comes with two (Ex) abilities like Pounce.

[mattie_p]

No, the OP said that Pounce wasn't an allowed ability and I'm not getting how it isn't allowed but his build includes a race that comes with two (Ex) abilities like Pounce.

Spirit lion totem wasn't allowed specifically, the ACF from Complete Champion is supernatural

Edit to Dr. Despair below me, it is not in the SRD despite what some websites might say.

[Doctor Despair]

No, the OP said that Pounce wasn't an allowed ability and I'm not getting how it isn't allowed but his build includes a race that comes with two (Ex) abilities like Pounce.

For example, we do not allow Lion Totem barbarian or exalted feats since they are supernatural abilities.

OP thought pounce was a supernatural ability. As I check into it, the SRD does have the totem barbarian's pounce explicitly called out as a supernatural ability.

[pabelfly]

Spirit lion totem wasn't allowed specifically, the ACF from Complete Champion is supernatural

Edit to Dr. Despair below me, it is not in the SRD despite what some websites might say.

Ah okay. Thanks for the explanation.

You can just make an Anthropromorphic Tiger then to get Pounce as an (Ex) ability and not have to worry taking about a level in Barbarian. Regular charging build otherwise.

[ShurikVch]

No way to hurt Incorporeals. To avoid magic, try Ghostoil (Libris Mortis), Ghostblight alchemical capsule (Complete Adventurer), Ghostwall Shellac (Dungeonscape), or Jade weapon (Oriental Adventures)

While you have Oil for Swarms, its 1d3x1.5 damage isn't very effective if Swarm in question have 40+ hp (let alone - 70+) or just have Fire Resistance(/Immunity)

Reliance on Moment of Perfect Mind makes you defenseless against Otto's Irresistible Dance - thus, beware Pixies...

[Anthrowhale]

OP thought pounce was a supernatural ability.

There's an ambiguity which I forgot to resolve---I meant "spirit lion totem" which is in Complete Champion and grants pounce at first level as a supernatural effect. There is also Lion Totem in the SRD which does niot grant pounce.

You can just make an Anthropromorphic Tiger then to get Pounce as an (Ex) ability and not have to worry taking about a level in Barbarian. Regular charging build otherwise.

I don't think it's quite this easy, but if you want to spell it out more I'm happy to take a look. There are two issues I see.

1. If you are using a regular charging build, then you are trying to hit about AC 40 at ECL 20. A mundane Anthrotiger might have a Strength of 26=18(base)+4(race)+4(levels) and since it has an ECL of +1, the maximum BAB is 19. This leaves base attack at 28=19(BAB)+8(str)+1(masterwork) implying hitting only 45% of the time with the first iterative, 20% of the time with the next, and 5% of the time for the last two. That leaves you dealing about 75% of a single attack's damage in expectation.
2. Given the high AC, the use of Shock Trooper is required, which means you will tank your AC. If you tank your AC, monsters can use power attack themselves to deliver some pretty ferocious damage. For example, a Pit Fiend with maximized power attack delivers an expected 213 damage against an AC of 8 or less.

... Troll Blooded Half-Undead (Gheden) Tainted Blood Fire Gnome (LA+2) ...

Where is Tainted Blood and Fire Gnome from? (Edit: found Fire Gnome---Planar Handbook)

No way to hurt Incorporeals.

The Serrenwood bow was meant to do this.

try Ghostoil (Libris Mortis), Ghostblight alchemical capsule (Complete Adventurer), Ghostwall Shellac (Dungeonscape)

Unfortunately, these all require an alchemy check which requires a caster level to pass.

Jade weapon (Oriental Adventures)

That's quite a nice one. It's more flexible than Serrenwood which is limited to bows and arrows, but you suffer -1 to hit and -2 to damage so a large jade two-handed sword deals ~8.5 damage with a -1 to hit while a large elvencraft serrenwood bow wielded as a quarterstaff deals 4.5 damage.

While you have Oil for Swarms, its 1d3x1.5 damage isn't very effective if Swarm in question have 40+ hp (let alone - 70+) or just have Fire Resistance(/Immunity)

I agree. Most swarms have a pretty low spot which makes stealth a pretty effective bypass.

Reliance on Moment of Perfect Mind makes you defenseless against Otto's Irresistible Dance - thus, beware Pixies...

Indeed. The only defense here is touch AC, which can be pushed as high as ~40.

[Doctor Despair]

Where is Tainted Blood and Fire Gnome from? (Edit: found Fire Gnome---Planar Handbook)

Tainted Blood is an LA +1 template from the Bestiary of Krynn, page 98.

Spoiler: Template

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Creating a Tainted-Blood Creature
“Tainted-blood” is an acquired template that can be
added to any corporeal creature with a Constitution score
(referred to hereafter as the “base creature”).
A tainted-blood uses all the base creature’s statistics
and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: Giants or humanoids with this template
become monstrous humanoids; otherwise, the creature
type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate
base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.

Armor Class: The creature’s natural armor class
increases by +2.

Special Attacks: A tainted-blood retains all special
attacks of the base creature and gains those described
below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 tainted-blood’s HD +
tainted-blood’s Con modifier unless noted otherwise.
—Acid Reflex (Ex) The acid-filled pustules covering a
tainted-blood’s body are extremely fragile. Any time the
tainted-blood is struck by a physical attack (whether a
melee attack or a ranged attack), some of these pustules
burst, releasing a 5-foot line of acid. Individuals in the area
must make a Reflex save or else take an amount of acid
damage based upon the tainted-blood’s size (see table).
—Burning Embrace (Ex) With a successful grapple
check, the tainted-blood manages to get a tight grip on
an individual, crushing its body against its opponent and
purposefully causing its pustules to burst. This damage is
automatic each round that the victim remains grappled
by the tainted-blood. Additionally, after the first round,
victims must make a saving throw against the poisonous
fumes of the tainted-blood’s acid (see below).
—Death Throes (Ex) When killed, the body of the
tainted-blood falls to the ground and begins to smoke and
smolder. 1d4 rounds later, the corpse explodes in a burst
of acid. Creatures within the area of effect are allowed a
Reflex saving throw for half damage. Additionally, one
round after the death throes, any creature still within the
area of effect must save against the poison fumes (see
below).
—Poison Fumes (Ex) The fumes of the tainted-blood’s
acid are toxic. Creatures within the area of effect of its
death throes, as well as any creature held in its burning
embrace, may be affected by the fumes. The initial damage
of the fumes is 1 Constitution. One minute later, those who
failed their first saving throw must make another save or
take 1d4 Constitution damage.

Special Qualities: A tainted-blood retains all the
special qualities of the base creature and gains those
described below.
—Enhanced Vision (Ex) A tainted-blood gains
darkvision to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Immunities (Ex) A tainted-blood is immune to
poison and acid.
—Scented (Ex) The fumes of the acid in its blood,
combined with the oozing wounds that leave a trail of
acid droplets in its wake, make tainted-blood creatures
very easy to track. Those following the tainted-blood gain
a +5 circumstance bonus to Survival checks to track the
creature. The bonus increases to +10 if the tracker has the
Scent special quality.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str
+2, Con +4.

Feats: Tainted-blood gain Improved Grapple as a bonus
feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites for the feat.

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.

Organization: Any, usually same as the base creature.

Challenge Rating: Fine through Tiny size, as the base
creature; Small through Large, as base creature +1; Huge
through Colossal, as base creature +2.

Alignment: Always chaotic evil.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1.

[Anthrowhale]

Tainted Blood is an LA +1 template from the Bestiary of Krynn, page 98.

I think that makes it LA+3? Fire gnome+1, Tainted Blood+1, Gheden+1?

In an LA buyoff setting, this seems plausibly viable.

[ShurikVch]

Unfortunately, these all require an alchemy check which requires a caster level to pass.

You're a Ranger - use Craft (herbalism)

[Anthrowhale]

You're a Ranger - use Craft (herbalism)

Is there any evidence that craft(herbalism) can substitute for craft(alchemy)? I know that craft(alchemy) can substitute (at a -4 penalty) for craft(poisonmaking), but I'm not aware of any rule allowing a different craft skill to substitute for craft(alchemy). It would be wonderful if so---there are many useful alchemical items.

[pabelfly]

Aberrant-Limbed Anthropromorphic Tiger 2 (+3 LA)/Fighter 15

Kensai Fighter (Dragon Magazine 310)

Anthropromorphic Tiger 1: Multiweapon Fighting
Anthropromorphic Tiger 2:
Kensai Fighter 1: Kensai Weapon: Flail (+1 to attack and damage) (1d8 damage)
Kensai Fighter 2: Weapon Focus
Kensai Fighter 3: Reckless Charge
Kensai Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization
Kensai Fighter 5: (+2 to attack and damage)
Kensai Fighter 6: Resolute ACF, Melee Weapon Mastery
Kensai Fighter 7:
Kensai Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus
Kensai Fighter 9: Improved Multiweapon Fighting
Kensai Fighter 10: Improved Critical
Kensai Fighter 11:
Kensai Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization
Crushing Strike
Kensai Fighter 13:
Kensai Fighter 14: Improved Initiative
Kensai Fighter 15: Greater Multiweapon Fighting
(+4 to attack and damage)

Attack Bonus
BAB 15 + STR 7 (18 + 4 Racial + 2 level) + 1 (Masterwork Weapons) + 4 (Fighter Feats) + 4 (Kensai Fighter) + 4 (Reckless Charge)
34

Damage
1d8 (Weapon) + 7 (Main, 3 offhand) + 4 (Kensai Fighter) + 6 (Fighter Feats)

We only do about 17.5 damage a hit, which doesn't seem like much, but we also remove 1 AC per hit due to Crushing Strike. With twelve attacks, we should be within the ballpark of decent damage.

[Anthrowhale]

...

Interesting. Reading through, a few comments.

1. Your BAB should be +17 since the anthro HD are full BAB.
2. You should be able to get +4 from level to strength, giving slightly more damage and hit chance.
3. You need to add in -4 to hit due to wielding one-handed weapons in the off hand, which reduces the overall attack bonus to +33 taking into account the above.
4. You might as well make it a heavy flail, increasing damage to 2d6 since Kensai grants proficiency even for exotic weapons. You could even go for a heavy maul (2d8 damage).
5. Abberant-limb seems to give a free multiweapon fighting, so you could pick something else up at level 1.
6. The set of feats which a Kensai Fighter can take is strongly restricted. (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Improved Initiative are on the list, but nothing else is.
7. You have 12 feats, but you should have 1(aberrant-limbed)+7(Kensai)+6(character levels 1,3,6,9,12,15)=14 feats.

With the damage boosts above, you reach 23=9(2d8 base)+4(str/2)+4(Kensai)+6(fighter feats).

A difficulty with this approach is that essentially every CR 20 monster has DR 15 (some even have DR 20), so you inflict only 8 damage/hit. If (say) 9 attacks hit, that's 72 damage which is nice but perhaps a fair bit less than the monster inflicts on the Kensai.

[pabelfly]

Interesting. Reading through, a few comments.

1. Your BAB should be +17 since the anthro HD are full BAB.
2. You should be able to get +4 from level to strength, giving slightly more damage and hit chance.
3. You need to add in -4 to hit due to wielding one-handed weapons in the off hand, which reduces the overall attack bonus to +33 taking into account the above.
4. You might as well make it a heavy flail, increasing damage to 2d6 since Kensai grants proficiency even for exotic weapons. You could even go for a heavy maul (2d8 damage).
5. Abberant-limb seems to give a free multiweapon fighting, so you could pick something else up at level 1.
6. The set of feats which a Kensai Fighter can take is strongly restricted. (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Improved Initiative are on the list, but nothing else is.
7. You have 12 feats, but you should have 1(aberrant-limbed)+7(Kensai)+6(character levels 1,3,6,9,12,15)=14 feats.

With the damage boosts above, you reach 23=9(2d8 base)+4(str/2)+4(Kensai)+6(fighter feats).

A difficulty with this approach is that essentially every CR 20 monster has DR 15 (some even have DR 20), so you inflict only 8 damage/hit. If (say) 9 attacks hit, that's 72 damage which is nice but perhaps a fair bit less than the monster inflicts on the Kensai.

The point of the flail is that you get to hit with Multiweapon Fighting and stack up AC reduction with Crushing Strike. That way every hit you make reduces the AC of the enemy by 1, and you get 4 hits at each level of BAB. Heavy Flail and Heavy Maul are two-handed weapons, not one-handed weapons. Perhaps I'm missing something here. Any other weapon that is a one-handed Bludgeoning weapon is fine too, we could probably do better than 1d8 but for a proof-of-concept, this is fine.

Kensai takes Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and Improved Initiative, all of which are on its list. Resolute is an ACF that we can trade for a fighter feat. Doesn't do more damage, but it helps with our Will save, which still is going to be a serious problem, especially without any access to the normal defensive gear.

Regular level feats are Multiweapon Fighting, Reckless Charge, Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Crushing Strike, and Greater Multiweapon Fighting. Looks like I missed two feats. Not sure how to wring out more damage - Shadow Hand would be good, especially since we have two free feats that could get it going, but being in a Stance seems to go against the thread concept.

DR is always the bane of attackers with a lot of hits. Hard to get around that.

[Anthrowhale]

Heavy Flail and Heavy Maul are two-handed weapons, not one-handed weapons.

Ah, sorry, this was ambiguous. I meant 'heavy' in the sense of Magic of Faerun heavy weapons on page 179. However, I misremembered---the heavy flail is the same as the heavy maul---just 2d6 damage as a one-handed exotic weapon.

...

Feats and crushing strike make sense. I think you are actually down 1 taking into account the ACF. Noting the based damage of a heavy flail is 2d6 suggests only 216 damage/hit, which is probably to low to matter even if everything hits.

...being in a Stance seems to go against the thread concept.

It seems fine to me---stances are not magical, and I was relying on assassin's stance as a minor buff to damage.

DR is always the bane of attackers with a lot of hits. Hard to get around that.

Inflicting 40 points of damage/hit seems like a minimal goal, because at least half the damage will not be soaked by damage resistance.

Edit: One thought is that an amphibious half-ogre anthropomorphic giant squid has 8 bludgeoning tentacle attacks with a +12 strength bonus. That could yield strength 34=18(base)+12(race)+4(level) with BAB+19. Using similar feats, you could have an attack bonus of 43=19(bab)+12(strength)+1(masterwork)-1(size)+4(fighter)+4(Kensai)+4(Reckless Charge) with a damage of 24.5=1d4+12+4(Kensai)+6(Fighter)....it's still not enough damage, but the to-hit is actually reasonable.

[TotallyNotEvil]

You set out to make a strictly mundane character... And pick up shadow teleportation abilities?

At that point just go straight with a ToB class.

[Darg]

Yeah, this is the problem. If I understand right, the attack is at +22 which makes a Balor's base of AC 39 (with Unholy Aura up) reduce the expected damage to about 62 with sneak attack. This is typical at these levels---a Pit Fiend is at AC 40 or 44 with Unholy Aura, and a Black Wyrm is at AC 39.

If you use touch attacks (via Unorthodox Flurry[Poison Ring]?), you'll be dealing with touch AC (Balor 20, Pit Fiend 21, Black Wyrm 6). But how do you trigger sneak attack reliably? Without that, dealing 7 damage/hit is not very compelling.

I didn't really think about that. How about this: we exchange unbalancing strike and improved natural attack with vexing flanker and adaptable flanker. Aberration Blood + inhuman reach allows us to threaten 20ft. Add in Reckless charge and we get an AB of +30.

What I could do, is replace the 7 levels of sneak attack fighter with a normal fighter +1 and reduce monk by 1 level for a total of 8 levels of fighter. Get shocktrooper and leap attack, reckless offense...

Hmm, let's try this:

Human Monk 11/rogue1/fighter 8

Abilities: 22/14/14/9/14/8

1: Aberration blood, lion tribe warrior, stunning fist
2: Combat reflexes
3: Inhuman reach
6: Reckless Offense, improved disarm
9: Mantis Leap
12: Craven
13: Power Attack
14: Improved Bull Rush
15: Leap attack
16: Shock trooper
18: Reckless Charge, vexing flanker
20: Adaptable flanker

BAB +16

UAS 1d10 + 12 + 32 leap attack + 20 craven + 1d6 SA (49.5 or 73 while flanking/41 if you don't tank your AC)

AB of +32 when attacking and flanking.

2 full attacks (+32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17)

Against an AC of 39 (no crits) it does an average of 372.3 damage in the first round. If you botch your rolls with the first round of attacks, you can always retreat with the second move action.

If retraining is on the table, then I would trade in improved disarm for snap kick for more damage.

The practically non-existent AC is a problem I don't know how to fix because even improved combat expertise wouldn't provide enough AC to mean anything. But, if you take out your opponent before they attack does it really matter? Is it even possible to keep AC relevant using only core races while keeping damage? I know I could use duelist to get my AC really high, but then damage suffers quite a bit.

[Maat Mons]

If you build an Ikea tarrasque, your AC doesn't matter too much.

[ShurikVch]

Is there any evidence that craft(herbalism) can substitute for craft(alchemy)? I know that craft(alchemy) can substitute (at a -4 penalty) for craft(poisonmaking), but I'm not aware of any rule allowing a different craft skill to substitute for craft(alchemy). It would be wonderful if so---there are many useful alchemical items.

It's optional rule from Masters of the Wild
Intended for Druids, but I don't see why Ranger should be left behind (considering Ranger is, basically, Druid/Figter multiclass with Foe Hunter/Foe Specialist feats)

Alternately, we may even claim Ranger is "spellcaster" (have a spell list) - and thus, legit* for Craft (alchemy)
*Dumb 3.5 rule change - in 3.0 all you needed is a successful check...

[Anthrowhale]

You set out to make a strictly mundane character... And pick up shadow teleportation abilities?

It's the only nonmagical teleport in the game...

At that point just go straight with a ToB class.

I'm not following how this is useful. It sounds likely to produce something much lower op.

...

So, the attack bonus is: +32=+16(BAB)+6(Str)+4(Reckless Charge)+4(Vexing Flanker)+2(Reckless Offense) (And -8 to AC).

Looking at Monk, I realized there was an issue---it has some supernatural abilities. Perhaps we can ignore them for the moment.

The expected damage of the flurry is (.7+.7+.7+.45+.2+.05)*(73-15) = 162.40 against an AC of 39 with DR 15. That's certainly enough to be relevant. I think your AC is -10 so any survivor can go full power attack.

A few ideas: There is a graft (long arm) which does not require magic and gives +5' reach. There's also the Goring Horn and the Grasping Mandibles graft which are freebies. Together these displace 3 of your feats and avoid locking to humanoid.

The M^3 build could use 2 poison rings, Flashing Sun maneuver, and Whirling Frenzy barbarian for an attack routine of +26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11 Touch against a touch AC of 9 to deal 7*(1.5(base)+20(craven)+14(Str)+2(blue Ice)+14(sneak attack dice)-15(damage resistance))=255.5 expected damage with an AC of 38.

W.r.t. core races and mundane AC, if you were a halfling maximizing dexterity, you could have an armor class of:
35=10(base)+1(size)+7(dex)+2(shield)+5(chitin plating graft)+3(scaly skin graft)+5(reinforced segmented mithril chain shirt)+1(dastana)+1(chahar-aina)

This can be increased with prestige classes or feats somewhat. For example, you could rely on swordsage instead of a shield, then pick up a +6 shield bonus and +5 dodge bonus by fighting defensively with two broadblade shortswords and greater two-weapon defense (at the cost of -6 to hit). Devoted Defender provides an additional +1 dodge AC per 2 levels. Altogether, I think you could make a halfling with an AC of 65 or so including fighting defensively and improved combat expertise. Of course, doing relevant damage requires navigating some significant tradeoffs.

If you build an Ikea tarrasque, your AC doesn't matter too much.

Doctor Despair had an LA+3 version. The LA+1 version is just a troll-blooded gheden. Perhaps one issue with ignoring AC is the many riders that attacks carry. If you want to avoid many of the nasty riders, the best approach I know of is through the Voidmind template although the LA+4 inherent in a voidmind troll-blooded gheden is getting pretty steep unless level buyoff with acquired templates is in play.

[Anthrowhale]

It's optional rule from Masters of the Wild
Intended for Druids, but I don't see why Ranger should be left behind (considering Ranger is, basically, Druid/Figter multiclass with Foe Hunter/Foe Specialist feats)

Alternately, we may even claim Ranger is "spellcaster" (have a spell list) - and thus, legit* for Craft (alchemy)
*Dumb 3.5 rule change - in 3.0 all you needed is a successful check...

This looks like a near-miss to me. The explicit callout as an optional rule, as 'druids can', and the enumerated list (smokestick, tindertwig, tanglefoot bag, antitoxin) of allowed applications make it to iffy.

I fully agree about alchemy---a dependence on spellcasting is pretty lame as a rule.

[ShurikVch]

I fully agree about alchemy---a dependence on spellcasting is pretty lame as a rule.

Then, maybe, get rid of it?
After all, Craft (leatherworking) don't required to be a spellcaster, but leatherworking processes using such compounds as copper sulphate and chromium salts...

[Anthrowhale]

Then, maybe, get rid of it?
After all, Craft (leatherworking) don't required to be a spellcaster, but leatherworking processes using such compounds as copper sulphate and chromium salts...

As a DM, I would. For a build though, you generally want to stick with the rules.

[Zarvistic]

What did you think about this suggestion by TotallyNotEvil. Getting up to 9th level maneuvers should be better than the mix of small abilities from dipping no?
Are you open to using prestige classes?

You set out to make a strictly mundane character... And pick up shadow teleportation abilities?
At that point just go straight with a ToB class.

[Remuko]

It's the only nonmagical teleport in the game...

I thought the shadow abilities were supernatural which is against the rules as stated in the original post.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not a fan of anthropomorphic animals, and tend to avoid them, both as a player and as a DM. Additionally, most games allow LA buyoff, so you can negate the drawbacks of a level-adjusted race, but not those of racial HD.

I'd start with something like Earth Dwarf or Water Orc, and gradually gain Half-Fiend using the Half-Goristro variant. That gets you +8 Str and Con, +5 natural armor, two slam attacks that add 1.5x Str to damage, and a size increase from medium to large for an additional Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4, and +2 natural armor. Gain and buy off one LA per three class levels, and it's all bought off by party level 13. You'll be a level behind for most of that time and gain more xp per encounter, eventually catching back up.

For completely mundane, go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, using the Dungeoncrasher ACF, Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels, and free Dead Levels features. Your Fighter 10 feat at 20th level can be Weapon Supremacy.

You'll want Cha 15+ at some point to get the feat Imperious Command. Wear armor with the Fearsome property from DotU (which is more recent than MIC) so you can intimidate as a swift action and again as a move action and still initiate a melee strike. Also don't forget Knock-Back and Combat Reflexes.

The half-fiend template class gives the two claw attacks at the 1st level, half-goristro replaces those with the two slam attacks, so from as early as 2nd level you're effectively making two attacks for two-handed damage.