Zodi Plays: The Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask (The Five Stages of Zelda-Game)

[Lord Raziere]

So you're just ignoring the "random mutant with his inherent abilities cracked up to 11 by nanomachines" explanation.

...If you look at it in chronological order, over time the villains in Metal Gear shift from natural/mystical threats over time to things that are completely artificial like cyborgs and machines and it's honestly kind of interesting. Kina wonder if that was deliberate.

Knowing Kojima, probably. Snake Eater had the most mystical ones, while Guns of the Patriots had the most artificial. MGS1 and MGS2 were both mixes, with MGS1 falling more mystical with a psychic guy.

it makes me think Metal Gear takes place in a pulp universe, as the level of supernatural or the importance of the supernatural or general weirdness never rises to the point of being superhero, but its clearly not normal reality as we know it. like if Metal Gear had adventurer archaeologists exploring random lost cities that shouldn't be possible and super-detectives solving crimes using only their brain and such I wouldn't be surprised.

[LaZodiac]

So you're just ignoring the "random mutant with his inherent abilities cracked up to 11 by nanomachines" explanation.

...If you look at it in chronological order, over time the villains in Metal Gear shift from natural/mystical threats over time to things that are completely artificial like cyborgs and machines and it's honestly kind of interesting. Kina wonder if that was deliberate.

100% ignoring it because of the following factors;

1: Doesn't explain the walking on water and ability to paralyze you by throwing a knife at your shadow
2: A big part of MGS2 was trying to trick you into thinking the people had artificial powers, but in reality they DID have powers and were being misled about them (ie, Fortune's psychic luck-shield, which the game says is just a tech barrier, but she proves is actually partly real) so even if it IS true that Vamp had nanomachines helping to improve his vampiric abilities, he still HAD vampire abilities to IMPROVE, ergo the nanomachines are just an additional thing that doesn't invalidate the fact that he is in fact an Immortal.
3: The ambiguity of where these powers come from is part of what makes Metal Gear good, I think- they are combinations of tech and mysticism and ultimately all were born from humanity's struggle to exist within war and death, and MGS4 trying to explain everything-everything is a mistake that can genuinely be ignored since it is so counter to the rest of the series. Conversely (and tangentially) Metal Gear Rising Revengence takes place in the new world, where the mysteries of the past are dead, so it makes sense and is in fact actually good that nanomachines come back the way they did... but that's a 50 000 word essay for another time.

Also yeah, the shift between "they can just do that" to "it's all tech based" speaks to a shifting in Kojima's fears. This sort of fear led him to, quite accurately (and ironically, in MGS2 of all things) predict the current year political climate and how the internet would shake out as a meta-universe unto itself. It also lead him to create Death Stranding, a game about how in the future we'll all be secluded in little islands of island, separated by a vast hostile world... like two years before the plague hit us for real.

Of course it also led him to create stupid stuff too, I just can't think of a great counterexample here.

[Rater202]

I'm not gonna lie, through the whole Booktai stream I kept noticing that in the room with the three gates and the three pressure panels that even though the room reset when you left that the gates didn't close till you stepped on the relevant pressure plate and was wondering if that couldn't have been used to solve the puzzle.

[LaZodiac]

I'm not gonna lie, through the whole Booktai stream I kept noticing that in the room with the three gates and the three pressure panels that even though the room reset when you left that the gates didn't close till you stepped on the relevant pressure plate and was wondering if that couldn't have been used to solve the puzzle.

... huh. I didn't notice that at all. But also naw, that puzzle is absolutely intended for post Duneyyr as a sort of "some things can only be done when you have a coffin eh, pay attention to that concept" tutorial. Potentially anyway.

anyway hey, yesterday's stream was pretty fun. Lets talk about it.

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [10] Eggy G. Egg

Video Length: 3:46:27

In this episode... we basically just do a bunch of vitally important side content, given the current in game situation. We need to upgrade Cloche something fierce, and also since we now finally have Cloche in the party we can craft weapons. So it is time to do just that, throwing together some ridiculous weaponry, doing talk topics, and engaging in Dives with everyone's favorite holy cyborg musical girl idol. The results are fascinating; the first Dive we do leading to a restaurant battle where a female paladin version of Goemon slices up some omelet for us, and the second Dive leads us to... an absolute hellscape brain zone that is so violent, confusing, and scary that the game literally boops us to level 4 rather than face the (according to Infel, Cloche's alleged mind guardian) void of what it all entails. Which. Isn't a good thing. And in this level 4 world we help Cloche deal with her inability to do what she wants... which translates to her dressing in a barely there series of strings and demon horns and singing death metal till people's brains rot. Well then.

Oh also plot wise it turns out Luca has ascended into spirit form and is currently engaged in pitched conflict with the Grand Bell army, utilizing magical wizard golems. Neat.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah all that Ar Tonelico stuff is crazy, I can't believe Luca has uploaded herself to the google cloud and is using amazon delivery drones to attack the plague police.

Also interesting contrast: Luca's cosmophere when dealt with two villages was about one of them starving and her trying to please everyone, while Cloche deals with two restaurants trying to feed everyone with the main difference being what dishes they serve and her trying to please one person. Luca sees the conflict as something to solve so everyone is happy about and Cloche sees the conflict as something for her to do well on so that her side gets the win so she can praised for it by the one in charge. both recognize that people need to be fed but have very different priorities when trying to figure out how to do that.

I've been watching both Bravern and Witch of Mercury Zodi on your recommendation and I've been liking them. I'll focus on WoM since its older:

Spoiler: random thoughts on Witch of Mercury

Show

the more it goes on the more I'm convinced Miorine is the one for Suletta simply because she's the only one who can endure being in Suletta's presence without being broken and reforged by her- she changes but is more bending rather than breaking, a flexibility as she realizes what she values and wants to do is changing because of her.

Guel: marry me, Suletta
Suletta: NO WAY! *runs off*
Agreed Suletta, this is a normal sane reaction to Guel, much more so when he's proposing to you.

Miorine: my dad made the rules here that this academy runs on honor duels and being rich
Me: what kind of crazy person would do that-
*sees who they are*
Me: oh, rich people who make military stuff. nevermind this makes perfect sense now.

let me guess: Suletta's just going to keep befriending disposable Elan Cereses and Peil keeps sending them at her thinking "why do they keep turning to her side??"

Miorine: Father stop doing evil things
Her Father: Screw the rules I have money

Guel: Father stop interfering in my matches!
His Father: screw the rules I have money

Investigator: your mech's a gundam
Peil: yes
Investigator: you realize there will be a punish-
Peil technology: screw the rules we have money
Investigator: yeah that checks out

the most unrealistic part of this is investors obeying anyone or anything other than their own whims. people have thrown money at way stupider ideas than what Miorine is proposing, and I doubt there is a single CEO or chairman alive with that much influence over a corporation as much as what Miorine's father exerts here.

random mechanic: I didn't come here to make killing machines, I say as I enroll as a mechanic in an academy explicitly running on duels using killing machines

I don't think its pity Guel, I think Shaddiq wants to use you.

.....my god Gund-Arm Inc made their commercial so dumb and cheesy that its guaranteed to be memed about forever. what a genius marketing plan.

and aaaaaw, Miorine finally smiled!

Really Shaddiq, you wanted to use the guy who lost three times in a row for your taking of the GUND technology for yourself? you'll still fail dueling Suletta yourself but I can see why you'd want a scapegoat to blame your failure on.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah all that Ar Tonelico stuff is crazy, I can't believe Luca has uploaded herself to the google cloud and is using amazon delivery drones to attack the plague police.

Also interesting contrast: Luca's cosmophere when dealt with two villages was about one of them starving and her trying to please everyone, while Cloche deals with two restaurants trying to feed everyone with the main difference being what dishes they serve and her trying to please one person. Luca sees the conflict as something to solve so everyone is happy about and Cloche sees the conflict as something for her to do well on so that her side gets the win so she can praised for it by the one in charge. both recognize that people need to be fed but have very different priorities when trying to figure out how to do that.

I've been watching both Bravern and Witch of Mercury Zodi on your recommendation and I've been liking them. I'll focus on WoM since its older:

Spoiler: random thoughts on Witch of Mercury

Show

the more it goes on the more I'm convinced Miorine is the one for Suletta simply because she's the only one who can endure being in Suletta's presence without being broken and reforged by her- she changes but is more bending rather than breaking, a flexibility as she realizes what she values and wants to do is changing because of her.

Guel: marry me, Suletta
Suletta: NO WAY! *runs off*
Agreed Suletta, this is a normal sane reaction to Guel, much more so when he's proposing to you.

Miorine: my dad made the rules here that this academy runs on honor duels and being rich
Me: what kind of crazy person would do that-
*sees who they are*
Me: oh, rich people who make military stuff. nevermind this makes perfect sense now.

let me guess: Suletta's just going to keep befriending disposable Elan Cereses and Peil keeps sending them at her thinking "why do they keep turning to her side??"

Miorine: Father stop doing evil things
Her Father: Screw the rules I have money

Guel: Father stop interfering in my matches!
His Father: screw the rules I have money

Investigator: your mech's a gundam
Peil: yes
Investigator: you realize there will be a punish-
Peil technology: screw the rules we have money
Investigator: yeah that checks out

the most unrealistic part of this is investors obeying anyone or anything other than their own whims. people have thrown money at way stupider ideas than what Miorine is proposing, and I doubt there is a single CEO or chairman alive with that much influence over a corporation as much as what Miorine's father exerts here.

random mechanic: I didn't come here to make killing machines, I say as I enroll as a mechanic in an academy explicitly running on duels using killing machines

I don't think its pity Guel, I think Shaddiq wants to use you.

.....my god Gund-Arm Inc made their commercial so dumb and cheesy that its guaranteed to be memed about forever. what a genius marketing plan.

and aaaaaw, Miorine finally smiled!

Really Shaddiq, you wanted to use the guy who lost three times in a row for your taking of the GUND technology for yourself? you'll still fail dueling Suletta yourself but I can see why you'd want a scapegoat to blame your failure on.

It is wild how accurate that is.

God I love Witch from Mercury. Anyway, more Ar Tonelico!

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [11] Crafting Cavalcade

Video Length: 3:06:48

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [12] Deathlandia

Video Length: 3:14:23

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [13] Egotistical Champion Viole

Video Length: 3:18:02

Somehow, in these three streams, we run the gamut of Ar Tonelico 2 as a series. Genuinely interesting and thought provoking explorations of our heroines mentalities, fascinating mechanically choices that lead to innovative and memorable (if sometimes a little weird) gameplay, and the most needlessly horny and out of turn fetish stuff imaginable. It's an incredible adventure, from the start of the procedurally generated artificial land full of minigame-esque dungeon rooms to the tightly fashioned dog collar our hero has to wear because of Cloche's insecurity about having a boyfriend publicly.

We also, briefly, took a minor side tangent into the Southern Bozjan Battlefront of Final Fantasy 14, to show off Castrum Lacus Litore. Hell of a fun fight! Still need to do the Delubrium though...

To summarize the actual contents though, for those following along but who don't have nine hours; after wrenching ourselves free from an attempt to get Cynthia's weapon recipe cards, we finally have approached the fabled Gaea/Deathlandia, the floating continent above Metafalls' tower, that Luka has sung into being. It is a massive artificial forest, full of pepens and soopes and deadly wizard grandpas, and we've gotta find our way to the heart of this land so we can save Luca's core identity from it. To facilitate this, two things have been acquired; first, the Infelsphere, a dreamspace between Cloche and Luka facilitated by Soupe that will help Cloche learn Luka's backstory and life so that they can better understand each other, and in the doing grow Deathlandia. Second, the Keyhole, a Luka double made by Deathlandia to serve every vital function Luka has in the party (dive therapy, song magic, talk topics, etc) and also to serve as the place we insert keys into to further unlock the Infelsphere locations. Yes the game does what you think it does with this.

In engaging with the Infelsphere, Cloche gets to relive formative memories in Luka's life. The first... her realization that the restuarant she works at will have customers that will sexually harrass her and there's nothing she can do to defend herself from this and she will not be protected by this from anyone. By accepting this truth, Cloche unlocks a part of Gaea that is full of funny penguin creatures trying to forcefully steal food from you, something that is probably symbolic. We'll see what happens if Cloche denies this and stands up for herself later, but this is a good example of how this mechanic functions and I do actually like it for that. It's just a little weird having "frank discussion about assault in the work place" wedged between our (admitidlly self inflicted) pet play cosmosphere and "you have to slide the key into my body Croix!" jokery.

We also, on our climb up to Deathlandia, got to see all the EX Attacks of our vanguard characters. I can see why they take so long to charge now, given how powerful they are. The combination of animation and honestly brilliant spritework is really nice (especially since the first game had some minor animation work with some of the spells, and I was honestly missing that). The highlight, for me, obviously, is Croix's Infinite Thrusts move, where the voice actor finally shows us that no, no the very calm and demure acting he's been giving Croix is an intentional act, because when it is time to really get anime-shouty he gives a shockingly intense performance that I actually really liked! Now if only he was saying something other than MAXIMUM PENETRATION.

[LaZodiac]

Okay, lets... round up these streams why don't we.

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [14] Syncrocity

Video Length: 3:24:39

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [15] Penguin Noises

Video Length: 3:29:10

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [16.1] Girl Fight and [16.2] Screen Shake Hell

Video Length: 43:38 and 2:34:15

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [17] Sliding Scale of Quality

Video Length: 3:44:26

Okay, so.

A lot of these streams cover Gaia/Deathlandia, so lets go over that as a whole just to like, think about it for a bit. It's clearly an intended super dramatic moment and mechanical thing, and it even has weird but completely reasonable side stuff like "you can buy this compass to help navigate!" and it just...

Look, conceptually, it's really interesting. A procedurally generated world that grows as you attempt to navigate through Luka's own sordid memories, so Cloche can properly relate to her and increase their ability to work together, something that is very clearly and directly a Big Deal. And for a lot of these, it works! Luka's past is brutal and realistic in ways I honestly did not expect to encounter, and the "right" answers being to acquiesce so Cloche is made to fully understand just what Luka's been through is a lot. But as it goes on... it delves deeper and deeper into Luka's power-hungry, continent-fueled rage at Cloche and Croix's relationship in a way that doesn't really work.

And of course, the little minigame "worlds" this creates are decent time wasters with no actual symbolic connections at best, and miserable gameplay experiences at worst. It's pretty clear by the end of this that were were sick of Deathlandia and just wanted to play the normal loop of adventuring and VN sequences. It is just, flatly, a failed experiment. Which yes, is part of why I like games like this; seeing the experiments they try and enjoying the ones they succeed and bemoaning the ones that didn't, but this one was diiire. Thankfully chat helped us through it, especially a special appearance by one of the actual creators of the fan translation Qwerty is playing through, allowing for a bit more depth of understanding. It's quite fun!

Also thankfully, once we hit the end of Deathlandia, things start spiraling out of control in a positive way. The incredible song EXEC_Sphelia that plays during the lead up to the Mind Guardian boss fight within the core of Deathlandia is incredible... even if, as Raziere points out, it is sampling the same bass track as Survival Examination from, of all things, Naruto. This then segues into a hunt for Jakuri and the stolen Heart of Gaea... and upon finding her, in her cyber-graffit'd up basement lair, recruiting her to our party.

Jakuri then proceeds to make an incredibly endearing presence in the party, a perfect third-party to the inner personal dramas of Cloche and Luka's argumentative nature, adding a bit of mysterious and somewhat dark-tinged levity to things that balance it all out. She's mechanically quite strong (and likely to get stronger) but costly in contrast to the other two Reyvetals, and even if she has a bad outfit she's got a good sort of character style to her that rules.

And all this on top of the potentially secret knowledge of her truth that we're completely flippant about: she's literally the final boss of the first Ar Tonelico game! Genuinely! And that is WILD. Games with different protagonists per edition have reference the previous MC before (Shin Megami Tensei's love of throwing Demi "Wait why is random encounter music playing for this fight- wait oh god!!" Fiend being the most immediately notable) but this is probably the first time I've seen the bespoke actual main villain of the entire plot of the first game being regulated to "extremely powerful late game party member". It's wild and I love it and if she wore pants I'd be thrilled to have her here instead of just really excited.

[LaZodiac]

Oops didn't realize I'd left the thread hanging on stream 17!

[18] Jakuri's Big Day Out

[19.1] Hug Power

[19.2] Dreamy Way

[20] Hibernation

[21] Frightfur Tantrum

[22.1] Internet Problems

[22.2] Pier, Reviewed

It's not as much as it looks, given some of the streams (most of the streams) got split vod wise due to terrible internet, but yeah! We hang out with Jakuri, doing a bunch of synthesizing with her, do her first dive wherein we are subjected to her anime-trope drenched fanfiction, and then go to Kanakana Pier to meet God! Turns out Frelia is a sleepy sleepy girl, and the baddies use her to sing Hibernation, almost killing everyone and downloading us into a Lotus Eater Machine, which we defeat with the power of maybe almost killing our sister. The end result of THAT is that Chester and friends are all brutally injured- though Chester lives- and we have to fight a giant horror plushie that Jakuri correctly calls out as cute. With the people of the world saved, we are now left with... a dying world, and a bunch of unconscious plague victims. Uh oh! Thankfully, after a quick return trip to Kanakana Pier, we find Implanter, the song we need to reboot Infel Phira! That all leads us to yesterday's stream...

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [23.1] Continue All The Downloadin'

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [23.2] Lets Both Be Pope

Video Length: 22:40 and then 3:18:50

In this exciting episode of Ar Tonelico 2, we attempt to download Implanter to Luca... only to discover, doi, the Infel Phira hard-reboot command song is written in Pastalian code, so only an IPD can sing it... meaning Cloche, who is barely capable of standing. We attempt to go to the Grand Hell Hill to do this, only getting waylaid by more crafting and diving with Jakuri, then by Targana's unending desire to have a destined rival sword fight with Croix! After some discussion he says this duel will happen in Cape Dice... a place that exists not on any map, because it is a place Croix and Targana created as kids together, in their secret base they referred to as "our Metafalica". Once there, we engage the erstwhile tsundere in pitched 1v1 rpg combat- thankfully tuned to such a way that this is actually doable, it is more or less scripted- and as the world rumbles in "oh right the world is ending" Targana falls to his death. We reach for him, grabbing hold, but he insists he dies, and we fade to black... as Croix says this is stupid because no you don't get to die you have to live and make up for your mistakes dangit! With Targana saved, we are now free to sing Implanta... but that'll be for next time.

I do want to take a bit of an aside here to talk about how much I do like Targana as a character concept. He's ludicrous and silly and his thinking that our wanting to sing Implanter so people don't die means we also want to take over the government is wildly off base... and ultimately it's all just in service to his destiny rival want for Croix. And I can't really blame him- even if it's been ten years, even if he was nine when it happened, I have to imagine looking back at those boyhood memories of going to a special paradise just for them, to hang out and train and have fun, telling each other secrets and vowing service to one another, that's gonna put them ideas in your head in retrospect. I hope one day, now that he gets to live, Targana can calm down a bit and find a guy he can settle down with and not be quite so ridiculous with.

That is to say, I don't have any illusions that the game actually considers him gay, especially given this is a game of its era in more ways than one (the manga adaptation apparently has him end up with Cloche in a terrible example of pairing the spares) but the fact that the idea of it is brought up in universe is kind of novel. It's a common trope to read into the destined rival character that oh, they're definitely crushing on each other, their obsession with each other is due to unresolved sexual tension. It's a good ass trope to read into stories, especially when the actual canon love interests barely get even half as much effort thrust towards it. What Ar Tonelico 2 does though, which is interesting to me, is have it so that no there's actually quite a lot of support and reason to believe Croix would be in love with Cloche and Luca, so one can read his and Targana's rivalry as just that, despite the clear tension in it from Targana's side... but then they make it clear that no no you're not seeing things Luca can tell this boy is suffering from some gay-adjacent yearning and has no idea how to express it. Even if ultimately we don't get anything more than that... that's more than some series bother to do!

[LaZodiac]

Something I (almost) forgot from last time; there was one bit of crafting that was partitioned off in its own little segment of stream because the internet broke. I have turned it into a highlight for your viewing pleasure.

Zodi Stream Highlight: The Girlish Aura of the Vernier Engine

And with that said... time to implanta!

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [24.1] Implanta

Video Length: 3:30:01

Ar Tonelico 2 [24.2] Infelsphere 4 Back End

Video Length: 31:31

In this exciting episode, we actually get around to singing Implanta! This lovely, lively folk song returns every IPD back to consciousness... and nothing else, unfortunately, as they're still infected with the plague but hey, that's something we'll be fixing as we go. This, finally, brings us to Phase 4, which I believe is the second to last act! We're closer to being finished this game than it really feels and that's, incredible to consider.

Unfortunately, the plot then ambushes us with some pretty important stuff; Dreamy Way, and Kanakana Pier with it, are threatening to fall now that it's lift generator is irreparable. So we've gotta risk going down there to decouple that segment of the land, lest it rip chunks of the land away with it... primarily Mint Block, where Luka's mother lives. To this end, Shun has finally joined the team as our final Vanguard unit, much to Targana's chagrin as he's forced to stay back and file paperwork. Poor guy.

It is, ultimately, not THAT difficult to decouple the Dreamy Way section... but it is rather rough a situation for everyone involved. Cloche's entire goal throughout this game has been to try and make there be more land- she failed her part in Metafalica, and that was rough for her, but now she's actively destroyed part of the world. To save it, yes, but still; there is no less land left in Metafals, and this is painful to consider. Unfortunately, Amarie has nothing to say about the last remnant of her home falling into the Sea of Death, complete with all those books that are now just definitely lost knowledge...

With that done and a heavy heart (mood breaking due to Soope plopping out a new infelsphere key during some of the more dramatic moments) Cloche does the only thing one can do when they're really, truly, feeling the weight of the world- go to sleep next to her girl-best-friend. Jokes aside it's time to do some Infelsphere stuff, and it is here we reach probably the hardest example of how the Scenario Writer for the story and the writer for the Cosmophere and Infelsphere were clearly not really capable of keeping things in line with each other. The idea that Goddess of War has now taken over Luca, and that leaving the Infelsphere won't change that, is kind of at odds with the fact that we only just now got the last key we needed to complete this level of the Infelsphere, so if we'd done them all as we got them Luca would have spent the majority of those tender, emotion driven moments where she unites with and understands Cloche and gets her next key... while controlled by her truest, darkest resentments.

And like. Here's the thing; that could work. We can see signs of Luca always holding feelings like this from minute one with the infamous "give me back his virginity" line. Luca's resentment for Cloche and what she has done and what she represents and who she is, is something that Luca has shown, directly, that she can swallow down for a pretty long time... until it eventually bursts, like in the argument they had about Reisha, or subconsciously like with Goddess of War here. There is SOMETHING here, with the idea that Luca is actively suppressing these negative thoughts, but is still having them and "leaving the Infelsphere won't change that". But it still feels kinda weird in how it's presented.

As for the Infelsphere itself- while aspects of it feel kind of redundant after three previous levels of bemoaning Luca's frustrations about Cloche's inability to understand and not caring that she's trying because no she doesn't want her to try she wants her to successfully understand, to have already understood not simply try, and how she really just cannot fathom a world where Croix has chosen her over Cloche and yet the start of the game was clearly Croix caring about her in a way that set her off and it's all just one big mess... all that aside, the dipping further into the very heart of the matter; that Cloche is complicit in a genocide and that yes even if Cloche isn't responsible for SOME of these actions while stealing Luca's life she did choose to continue it, and while yes she doesn't remember her childhood and has many factors in explaining why she kept on doing this thing she knew was wrong... she still knew it was wrong.

All culminating in the... not quite reveal, but perhaps most blatant bit of foreshadowing yet for those who haven't quite caught up yet, that Cloche IS Leika, Luca's sister and Reisha's birth daughter. And god I am actually really excited for when that does finally reach a breaking point and get revealed, because it's going to cause such a distortion in their behavior with each other. Because Luca is bemoaning the fact that her birth mother died and Cloche stole her throne and life and had this coup never happened then maybe Luca could have had a normal, care-free life as chosen pope of the world, instead of living in the slums working as a dive therapist, living with a mother she resents as a means to distance herself from all her pain. Imagine what'll happen when it becomes clear that Reisha, the woman Luca does genuinely seem to hate and is only now starting to warm up to as she slowly but surely breaks down her walls... is Cloche's real mom, a mom that was stripped from her, a life that was stripped from her, not by the cruelty of her parent's death but due simply to being a conveniant replacement stolen from a family that still existed- and that she was only stolen because her family was taking care of Luca, trying to keep Luca safe. How will this make the dynamic flip and shift and warp? I'm so gods damned curious about THIS, specifically.

And more to the point: what is Cloche's version of all this? What if we'd gone with Cloche's route and she'd been locked into a Metafalica that she can not actually sing, becoming the continent and forced to scream a song she doesn't know? What would Cloche be showing Luka here at the depths of her inner truth? Would it, like with Luca, be showing us reflections of a truth Cloche has been traumatized into forgetting? Will it be the kernel of herself that still remembers all that pain and torment that turned her into the imperious Lady Cloche, the bloodstained maiden who is willing to see a thousand plague victims created and killed to form an army of berserkers that'll power her laser so she can kill God for daring to gift them such a tainted and pathetic excuse for a world? What is going to happen with all THAT??

This is ultimately why, despite the rampant thorniness and kinda terrible character design and the honestly really ****ty "of its time" moments, that Ar Tonelico 2 is a game worth looking into, beyond our mission statement of comparing the official localization to the fan translation. Because there is really, really good writing in there, past all the crap that exists due to unthinking world-building or "this is a single person's opus so it's impossible for it to NOT have the creator's fetishes in it, by accident or on purpose to garner that market attention". The compelling and interesting interplay of "what happens when you can literally use a dreamscape to explore the deep, interpersonal conflicts a character has within themselves, in a way that makes sense to experience and hopefully work through to make things better for them". Deathlandia was a slog because the mechanical aspect of it was rough and we accidentally tried to see too much of it, ironically. But this? This is the good stuff, marred only by the fact that the initial Infelsphere stuff really seemed to be a bit over-much.

God I love video games.

[LaZodiac]

Another stream, posted just in time for you to catch up for today's stream, for those of you still following!

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [25] Leyka

Video Length: 4:45:31

In this one, we do a surprising lot! We continue Jakuri's cosmosphere (we're ALMOST done with it, so we'll be able to switch to Luca's again soon) and start to really see the meat of Mir's personal traumas beneath the fanfiction surface; her truth of wanting to connect with humans, but feeling like she simply cannot due to being a being above their simple mortality. It's interesting stuff, and I really appreciate Ar Tonelico 2 for having the end boss of the previous game be such an important, fleshed out character, given the plot of said game was about how no actually she deserves happiness too despite her lashing out at the world because *checks note* she was tortured to be used as a weapon and power source. So yeah.

Speaking of the first game, this stream actually opens with me showing off an oft talked about scene from the first game; Lyner showing he is just such a good good boy that he will leap off an airship to save someone... despite knowing there is no ground beneath them and that this will certainly end in both of their deaths. All because of... reflexes, I guess? Incredible work. Then the last minute save, leading into the unfortunate reality that said last minute save has ALSO doomed them to crash Krusche's airship. Excellent stuff all around.

Back to the game proper, after some synthesizing we finally get back to the main plot-task at hand; finishing up the Infelsphere level we were on. And it is time... for the big reveal. A reveal we all saw coming a mile away- but is it not true that a great twist is one you know is going to happen and are just waiting to see when the impact occurs?

In the case of Ar Tonelico 2? This is abundantly, aggressively true. The game is fairly confident by now you know what it is going to pull, so it drives it to the absolute limit. Luca and Cloche fighting, a rather ruthlessly cruel conflict as the two struggle and push and hit and verbally abuse each other. It honestly starts to feel genuinely uncomfortable, especially with the voice acting being what it is (in Japanese anyway...). Knowing these two, in this moment, truly genuinely hate each other- WANT to hate each other- and are digging up every last bit of grievance and anger and annoyance to fling at each other. It really, truly feels like we have erred in some way, that we've ****ed up and broken something that could have been...

Then it happens. Luca starts running through her memories backwards- memories we're well familiar with, given how much the previous layers of the Infelsphere focused on them, perhaps to its detriment. The modern day concerns of Luca being the true Maiden, of Cloche living a luxurious yet murderous life that should have been hers. The difficulties of being a well known Therapist and having to deal with the fact that yes fundamentally your work is sex work and people are going to be ****ty about it. The joys and pain of working at a cafe. The cold sadness of a mother who seems not to love you. The brutal, raw emotion of losing a sibling. And then... seeing the moment you lost her, so long ago.

Then seeing it from her perspective. Seeing the cell she was contained in. Seeing the endless, brain-destroying experiments executed upon her. Then seeing the day she's told that she's you- who you were supposed to be.

We mention it in the stream, but it is worth saying here; when Ar Tonelico 2 is bad, it is a descriptive. It is a perfect encapsulation of everything kinda bad with this era of RPGs, with this genre of RPGs. You can look at Gust's current works, of the most recent Atelier game whose main character is best known for the fact that the muffin-topping of her thighs is so so so so very big look at how big her thighs are isn't she adorable and cute and good. The Atelier games, the sister-games to Ar Tonelico, are so infamously This that one of the first times it came up in conversation between me and Qwerty, it was because a queer story she was sharing with me had one of the protagonists playing it and just kinda laughing at the jump animation having jiggle physics. Ar Tonelico 2, when it is bad, is a case study in the worst aspects of RPGs, that infects all the way up to the modern era.

But when Ar Tonelico 2 is good it's so ****ing good. This entire sequence is phenomenally executed. The sheer impact our heroines have at the realization- that this entire time, the girl Luca blamed Cloche for the death of, that Luca used as the core justification for why it's okay to despise Cloche, is... in fact, Cloche herself. The way that sheer shock strikes so much of the hate within her dead- and the game doesn't even say this justifies everything, it still puts forward the idea that the bad things Cloche has done are still things she is responsible for. But the knocking down of the idea that "Leyka died because of Cloche" was so fundamental to Luca's hatred that it kicks the legs out from under her. Cloche, too, has her anger silenced by this; a stewing self-hatred at the undeniable fact that Luca is right, that Cloche sitting idly as she let her government spread the IPD plague, as she let them corral IPDs and execute the weak ones and keep hold of the strong ones for their plan to kill god, all of that pain and anguish at allowing this stuff to happen and knowing that even if she tried to stop it she can't because this is the cage she's been built into. All of that falls away from the sheer shock of "I was the first victim in this massacre".

Because ultimately, that's the thing at the heart of it. Luca misses her sister, lost and dead, and blames Cloche for it. Cloche's attempt to fight back against this acquisation forces her to acknowledge all the pain she always knew WAS her fault. But with the realization that Cloche didn't kill Leyka, she IS Leyka, that all falls to pieces. The pain Cloche has caused is still there. The pain Luca feels is still there. But this singular idea; that Leyka did not die, but is still a victim of something horrid, unifies the two. Leyka is, in effect, dead- the little girl that could have been is gone, replaced with a woman forced to be a figurehead of great evil. But she doesn't have to be that anymore.

There is still more to deal with- Luca and Cloche both still have the consequences of everything that happened in their lives. Of mutual hatred and pain, of dismissal and self-loathing and fighting over the same genuinely rather sweet if also made of stone boy (and boy if we decided to pivot into courting the old end boss here that'd be hilarious). They still have a world to save, and in doing so they might save themselves from the years of pain they've suffered through.

I don't know. I just really ****ing loved that scene, and how it all culminated in this extremely satisfying dramatic denouement of their game-long bickering. I wish there had been english voice acting for this scene because it wouldn't be wrong to say this is one of the most important scenes of the game- **** it's practically a thesis statement for whatever this game is trying to say about relationships and loss and ****. But naw, no voice acting for this scene in English. We get it for the funny kinda horny but also actually kind of emotional beach scene in Jakuri's dive though so sure.

... anyway, that rant is over. I'm sure it's a little silly to see me go on this long about the silly "girls must bathe together to get stronger" video game, but at the end of the day that's kind of the point. Ar Tonelico 2 is, to coin a phrase, a land of contrasts, and that's why I love the parts of it that I love. The good stands out so much around the bad, and that's worth something.

[Rater202]

I'm still following I just don't have any thoughts

[LaZodiac]

I'm still following I just don't have any thoughts

Entirely reasonable.

[Lord Raziere]

I think my main thoughts without spoiling anything, is that Ar Tonelico in general stands out to me because of its worldbuilding, as an RPG series.

like, its a people living in a few artificial landmasses in the sky because the world below has become deadly, and its magic goes hard into being a conlang and like computer programming at the same time, with each tower being a giant computer. it goes so hard into it, there is points where you could mistake it for a science fiction setting instead. yet it has emotional moments that are so good and feel so fantasy and miraculous at the same time. do you KNOW how hard that is to pull off!? most magic systems either are soft to allow for the magical emotional miracle moments, or hard to be more sci-fi like and consistent, but few magic systems are able to capture both feelings, and Ar Tonelico does it without feeling inconsistent.

for AT2 specifically, I think while you do point out how they go about their arcs is repetitive and redundant at times, I like how deep they go into Cloche and Luca's backstories and what makes them tick as characters. Cloche is a privileged high priest girl who is cold on the surface but gets warmer, who learns to see the world beyond the authority figures she was trying to impress and actually work to help the people under her rule, Luca meanwhile is a sweet girl on the surface....but has a lot of anger about her personal situation and is capable of lot of deception and compartmentalization because of what she had to go through. they're both messes who are primed to hate each other because each has what the other wants, but what they have they don't really appreciate or take for granted: Luca has a loving mother and home life but wants more power to change the system, while Cloche feels imprisoned in her ivory tower of politics and power and just wants to be a normal girl who buys cute stuffed animals. Now to an extent their attitudes are not entirely their fault: Cloche was made into a figurehead while Reisha decided to start being more cold to her more recently for whatever reason because I guess oops she is technically still raising her first child up this far.

and the reason I keep saying AT2 is Xenoblade 2 before Xenoblade 2 is well....
-its a sequel to a game with a more conventional plot.
-its a more grey conflict with less clear as to who the main villain is
-its about environmentalism, ideology and the world falling apart
-Cloche and Mythra have similar appearances, cold haughty personalities and power over a nuke-satellite, while Luca and Pyra share the trait of being sweet girls in contrast to Mythra/Cloche
-both feature paradises or attempts at them that don't live up to what is promised.
-if AT2 was made today, I bet you that the Cloche Fan Club would totally be a reyvateil gacha
-it has a protagonist trying to romance the two main girls as the main storyline who at times feel like a side character to their problems and conflicts
-their magic is highly technological and has bond-based principles
-their worlds take place after an apocalypse

its so many similarities that I wouldn't be surprised if SOMEBODY working on Xenoblade 2 took some inspiration from AT2. granted, it could be coincidence given the settings, but its an awful lot of similarities for that.

[Rater202]

Ooh, what's this, a Princess Peach game?

So that's like, two games where she's the main character?

Speaking of the Mario franchise, the TYD remake comes out late next month... and has had "mild suggestive themes" added to its ESRB rating label

Barring drastic changes to the plot, and considering that the ESRB tends to err heavily on the side of caution when rating games the only thing I could think of that would be 'mildly suggestive' is... Vivian, if her trans status is uncensored. Though if I'm right it kind of sucks that we lie in a world where that's considered mildly suggestive.

Thoughts on Peach in a moment,

[LaZodiac]

and the reason I keep saying AT2 is Xenoblade 2 before Xenoblade 2 is well....
-its a sequel to a game with a more conventional plot.
-its a more grey conflict with less clear as to who the main villain is
-its about environmentalism, ideology and the world falling apart
-Cloche and Mythra have similar appearances, cold haughty personalities and power over a nuke-satellite, while Luca and Pyra share the trait of being sweet girls in contrast to Mythra/Cloche
-both feature paradises or attempts at them that don't live up to what is promised.
-if AT2 was made today, I bet you that the Cloche Fan Club would totally be a reyvateil gacha
-it has a protagonist trying to romance the two main girls as the main storyline who at times feel like a side character to their problems and conflicts
-their magic is highly technological and has bond-based principles
-their worlds take place after an apocalypse

I'm not gonna lie, you're not wrong! That's quite a bit more similar than even I expected.

The only major diff is Rex looks at this potentially painful love triangle and says "why would I not pick all three of you?"

Ooh, what's this, a Princess Peach game?

So that's like, two games where she's the main character?

Speaking of the Mario franchise, the TYD remake comes out late next month... and has had "mild suggestive themes" added to its ESRB rating label

Barring drastic changes to the plot, and considering that the ESRB tends to err heavily on the side of caution when rating games the only thing I could think of that would be 'mildly suggestive' is... Vivian, if her trans status is uncensored. Though if I'm right it kind of sucks that we lie in a world where that's considered mildly suggestive.

Thoughts on Peach in a moment,

Actually if you give me a moment, I'm gonna make a bespoke thread for Princess Peach. This thread will stay the Ar Tonelico 2 thread for the time being (I'm really only doing this because I want the thread to still be alive if/when Wombat comes back to finish his great work) but from now on I'm gonna make new threads for these sorts of things.

Also god I'm excited for TYD Remake. We discuss it a bit in the stream and I am so hype for it.

[LaZodiac]

As said, here is the thread for today's stream: Zodi Streams: Princess Peach Showtime! (Shin Super Princess Peach)

Now lets see about that Ar Tonelico 2...

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [26] Further Collapse

Video Length: 3:23:21

Zodi Streams: Ar Tonelico 2 [27] The Pact Is Sealed

Video Length: 3:57:41

In these exciting episodes of Ar Tonelico 2, we unfortunately experience the almost-loss of everyone's favorite Cat Mansion, meet up with Jakuri to figure out what's wrong, burn through a lot of our energy trying to get her the talk topics we need for her final cosmosphere, and then finally investigate the tomb of Infel and Nenesha, the former Maidens of Aqua and Homura. Inside, we find Infel's diary... that paints a pretty clear picture of what may be going wrong with the world. Infel lost her beloved Nenesha, so soon after truly coming to love her, and something in her broke... and my guess is in her despair, she broke Metafalls as well.

We also receive the final keys for the Infelsphere, so we're ready to gain the final piece of Metafalica we need to sing and save our world... but first, we ought to let the girl we love know we love her. Thus we hit Luca's next cosmosphere, the Fifth Layer, and unlike Cloche's it's not a weird bondage thing... for most of it's run time! Instead it's just at one incredibly awkward moment that we're just gonna move on from. Point is we've officially confirmed we're with Luca, and no amount of comedic cooking disasters are going to stop us from smooching our girlfriend!

Next time... probably more cosmosphere stuff, and likely the final Infelsphere and plot progression? Maybe not in that order we'll see how it goes. See you all next Sunday friends!

[enderlord99]

I checked the slightly-more-detailed explanation, and it's not because of Vivian being trans. It's because of some of Miss Mowz's dialogue and Flurrie in general.

[Rater202]

As said, here is the thread for today's stream: Zodi Streams: Princess Peach Showtime! (Shin Super Princess Peach)

And finally finished watching. Most of my thoughs have been edited into the post there but... I want these powers.

I checked the slightly-more-detailed explanation, and it's not because of Vivian being trans. It's because of some of Miss Mowz's dialogue and Flurrie in general.

Okay, that's... On the one hand, if Vivian's status as a transwoman remains uncensored then it's good that the ESRB doesn't consider that "mildly suggestive."

But on the other hand... That was my only lead on whether they were going to censor it again or not and waiting is killing me.

[LaZodiac]

And finally finished watching. Most of my thoughs have been edited into the post there but... I want these powers.


Okay, that's... On the one hand, if Vivian's status as a transwoman remains uncensored then it's good that the ESRB doesn't consider that "mildly suggestive."

But on the other hand... That was my only lead on whether they were going to censor it again or not and waiting is killing me.

Yeah my bet is that the E10 rating is more for Flurrie, some of the ****tiness of Beldam, and the pirate chapter, more than Vivian being allowed to be canonically trans.

As for if they'll do that... well. Acht in Splatoon 3's DLC gets to canonically be nonbinary, and Pearl and Marina from same are so unambiguously in love that there's clearly a trend of that sorta stuff just being more commonplace. But also Splatoon is a game fundamentally about counter-culture so it'd make sense to allow that stuff. We shall see!

[Qwertystop]

Just wanted to say the last few posts about AT2 are very much what I was thinking but said so much better than I could.

[LaZodiac]

Just wanted to say the last few posts about AT2 are very much what I was thinking but said so much better than I could.

Aww, thank you love. Now to get the new video out!

Zodi Plays: Ar Tonelico 2 [28] True Goro

Video Length: 3:55:19

In this exciting episode, we have two choices before us; do the next level of Cosmosphere with our newly minted girlfriend Luca, or conclude the Infelsphere, an act that will not cause anything bad to happen but will advance the plot in some nebulous way.

We are very clever and choose the latter, and are immediatelly struck over the head with the revelation that the true antagonists of this game are absolutely the bickering couple of Infel and Nenesha, who have been palling around inside Cloche and Luca's brains respectively, and intend to take over Luca's body so they can wake up Nenesha's true physical body... a body that should be dead based on Infel's diary, which has some startling implications that'll probably pop up at some point. This causes poor Luca to fall into what may be her... third plot mandated coma? At least one of those had her be a floating continent at least. A coma we go to fix in a rather dramatic and poignant scene where Luca's sex worker friend and colleague tries to move past her personal traumas to help us proxy dive into Luca to wake her up... and while she succeeds in helping us get Luca up, it's not perfect and we just about all die and she goes to the hospital from the mental shredding she inflicts upon herself in the process. I legitimately feel a little teary eyed thinking about it, which comes out of nowhere, and kinda wish Nana had a game that made her just a bit more important so this would have an even greater impact.

Because really, as we discuss here... a lot of the early game anime nonsense antics, while fun, were also very goofy and sometimes kinda poorly written and often far too horny for our personal standards. But this stuff? Basically since Deathlandia finished this game has really been on a roll plot writing wise, and I kinda wish it could have been this level of quality from the beginning. We've mentioned it before but it bares at least a little more repeating. Of course, while we're busy doing said repeating, Laude visits Luca's home and threatens Reisha with an offer she cannot refuse...

But we'll have to see what that means next time, since now it is time to do another dive with Luca, into the melting pot of her heart! Witch Luca has been roasting aspects of Luca's personality to death here, but recent events have changed her operating strategy... namely, our destruction of the wall gave her full access to Nenesha's part of herself that is inside Luca! I kinda wish we had done this first cause a lot of this would have struck a lot more disconcertingly dramatic before the Infelsphere we just did but eh, I digress. Thankfully, with the help of small Luca (likely her most core identity) we're able to escape from the ****ed up perfect mentality ritual sacrifice she intends for us... only to nearly be killed by her anyway. But with her ritual failed, the other Luca personalities from the previous levels are brought together into a robotic, magical girl like super ego that absorbs the Witch and escorts us to the next level and definitely, definitely, does not cause any more problems in Luca's mental landscape no not at all.

... Luca being a dream therapist and thus having near perfect control of her brain has lead to some WILDLY esoteric ideas, and while last time's super dommy power hour that dips into some rather unfortunate and extremely uncomfortable zones was definitely a dud (especially with me trying to run at least some degree of decency on this show!) all of the stratums of her Cosmosphere have been interesting and compelling and played around with the fact that this is someone who is EXTREMELY good at compartmentalization and is highly skilled at a job that basically requires that, leading to some scenarios that seem completely out of hand but are a natural and reasonable extension of the lore of the series. The first game went WAY simpler with this stuff, definitely feeling more like dreams that reflected inner-most desires, and ironically the best example of this would be Aurica.

Aurica and Luca both have similar problems. Namely, they want to have some of that sweet sweet hand-holding with their romantic interest... but due to certain ingrained internal issues, have a difficulty facing that. This is a perfectly reasonable thing, and is not in any way negative or bad. People can hold two (or many) thoughts in their heads! Aurica wants to be the perfect pure angel girl AND wants to allow herself to enjoy the things she wants to enjoy. Luca wants to allow herself to be who she really is inside, even as another side of her slams down hard on how any sort of self expression is anti-ethical to her means of existence.

The difference here truly is in how this is presented- Aurica's overly demanding self-conscious "must push myself into the box everyone wants me to be in" self manifests as an angelic robot, quite a bit like the new Luca we just got introduced to funnily enough, that can freely move through almost every layer of her mind, monitoring the situation... but is ultimately still completely beholden to the power of the cosmosphere, and cannot actively act against the Aurica's of those levels. By contrast, virtually every layer of Luca's mind has been an uphill battle against the Luca that wishes to be known and understood, and the Luca that wants to remain distant. Whereas Aurica's are mostly self contained, with Angel Aurica occasionally popping in to provide some support and some resistance between Demon Aurica, Luca has to deal with the fact that she's quite literally split up multiple personality factors of herself into bespoke entities to make it easier to do her job, and some of them are starting to revolt against the main body in active, literally self-harming ways. With Aurica, the fighting Angel Aurica does against Demon Aurica is far more symbolic- it is a literally battle in the center of her mind where she is fighting with those two thoughts, but is fully in control of both. Luca is not so lucky, and the conflict is so very literal that I wouldn't be surprised if we got another plot mandated coma during one of these dives because one of them decides to take a wrench to her soul to just, briefly conk out so she can try to fix some damage the warring factions of Luca have caused.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but it's something I truly love about this game series. The Cosmosphere is one of its most unique mechanics and lore things, and seeing how they play with it is fun. Aurica's mental space was never really a danger to herself, and was a danger to Lyner only in the sense that Horny Aurica DID try to permanently lock him up in her bedroom. Luca's mindscape feels like a legitimate threat that I wouldn't blame Croix for deciding to avoid- and it shows how good a boy he IS that in the route where we pick Luca, he sees this battlefield of mental anguish, hugs it all tight, and says he'll accept all of it. What a good guy!

... I still cannot wait to see what happens in the Jakuri route's version of the "okay so Lyner's dating me" conversation. Former End Boss power is strong indeed.