Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[ArlEammon]

There are only three certainties in life. Death. Taxes. And the Empire vs Stormcloaks debate from Skyrim.

Who do you support? Or who do you prefer over the other? Why?
I just go between the Stormcloaks and Empire. Personally at the moment I find the Stormcloaks as only slightly worse than the Empire, but their more direct and honest about how bad they are.

So, for the Stormcloaks, they are ancient peoples that do not have our modern sensibilities on race relations, to put it mildly. For the Empire, even though they aren't as bad as it seems in regards to religious freedoms, they still disregard the local beliefs of the people, taking their freedom to worship who they choose.

As far as Empire, these people, in my estimation, have a a pragmatically good cause. Ulfric killed High King Torygg. Maybe by the customs of the Nords, maybe not, I don't know if the situation is all that cut and dry. He used The Voice to "Shatter him apart." The Empire needed to keep the rebellion short, so they didn't have to divert precious resources, and reinforcements from other parts of the Empire, in their struggle against the fascist, mass murdering Aldmeri Dominion.

Now, again, for the Stormcloaks. . . They have first impressions on their side. The Imperial Captain nearly had The Last Dragonborn butchered before Alduin showed up. Not only that, when the Dragonborn arrives at Whiterun, we find two members of the Imperial sympathizers, the Battleborns ganging up on a poor old woman, mocking her, as a mother who is only trying to have hope that her son was not killed or maybe worse by the Thalmor/Empire. That's a very low thing to do.

All in all, I don't find the Stormcloaks as bad as many seem to think they are, despite me not liking them all that much either. On the other hand, sometimes it seems like, joining the Empire is sort of like joining the Mafia. Not a ringing endorsement for either side, especially since I really prefer the Empire in comparison despite first impressions. Part of the reason for this is the scumminess of Ulfric Stormcloak.

[Cikomyr2]

My vote is "Bethesda are just bad writers who dont really think deeply about what they put in the world".

We can go into a lot of details about who does what, who says what. Ultimately the entire world of Skyrim was put together by people who never really had much of a cohesive thought in what they were doing beyond "lets do quests for an action-adventure game".

[Keltest]

My vote is "Bethesda are just bad writers who dont really think deeply about what they put in the world".

We can go into a lot of details about who does what, who says what. Ultimately the entire world of Skyrim was put together by people who never really had much of a cohesive thought in what they were doing beyond "lets do quests for an action-adventure game".

I disagree. Theres a lot of depth to the argument, how much is one person, even the leader of an organization is responsible for the actions of its members, both good and bad, and how much an organization can be tainted by one person.

Ultimately, I side with the Empire almost every time. Ralof is kind of charismatic, but Ulfric is short sighted, racist and has been previously manipulated HARD by his enemies to basically give them what they want. On practical grounds alone he loses, let alone moral ones.

[Cikomyr2]

I disagree. Theres a lot of depth to the argument, how much is one person, even the leader of an organization is responsible for the actions of its members, both good and bad, and how much an organization can be tainted by one person.

Ultimately, I side with the Empire almost every time. Ralof is kind of charismatic, but Ulfric is short sighted, racist and has been previously manipulated HARD by his enemies to basically give them what they want. On practical grounds alone he loses, let alone moral ones.

Ulfric cooperation with the Thalmor ended since the Markath incident, which was 20 years before the start of the game.

This has been how long since Ulfric has carried his colour. The man basically has been a nonexistent entity for the past 20 years. He has no heir, he doesnt govern his city. He never actually has a relationship with the practice of the Voice culturally among the Nord, despite him being one of the only 5 living people in Skyrim trained in the art.

He killed the previous High King with it, and everyone knows its because he knew he was physically weaker to Torygg. But there's no further point made by him or his faction about how this Nord Magic is part of their heritage.

The game is just pure superficial fluff of cool concepts and ideas developped in parallel that we never actually see amount to anything more than a suggestion of something, just so you keep adventuring grind your stealth archer alchemist/enchanter.

[Rater202]

I will always fall on the side of "I wish there was a '**** both sides' route" because while I tend to default to the Empire I find that both sides simultaneously make good points but are also bad for Skyrim in the long run.

Like, as the Last Dragonborn who is acknowledged as such by the Greybeards and/or blades, who retrieved the Jagged Crown, who has the potential to be acknowledged as a Thane and thus both a minor noble and a hero in every hold with one being mandatory, I think the player has a more legitimate claim to the title of Hgh King than either Elisif or Ulfric and also, um...

...It's also spelled out that all Dov have the instinctive urge to conquer, to dominate an destroy, but the Dragonborn, who is a Dov soul in a mortal body, has no more ability to act on that urge than a typical sandbox protagonist does and yeah, Paarthurnax has that whole space about resisting your evil nature.. But you know, resisting to urge to conquer is like resisting the urge to study dark magic: It means jack and **** if you never have the opportunity to do otherwise.

And that's before adding in faction side quests and other optional content which just strengthens your claim and/or ability to act on it.

[Rynjin]

So setting aside the moral argument of "constricting freedom of religion" vs "borderline comical racism", the Empire is in the right simply because a state cannot survive letting armed challenges to its authority go unchecked.

Picking up the moral argument, the Empire explicitly followed the letter of the law in a treaty designed to give them enough time to amass forces against the existential threat of the Thalmor, and had the good sense not to ENFORCE the damn thing, but teh Stormcloaks are too dimwitted to realize that and have ripped the Empire apart into tiny bite size piece the Thalmor can clean up with ease. Good job, jackasses.

The Stormcloaks have zero leg to stand on no matter how you slice it. They are not a sympathetic faction on their own merits, and show such a severe lack of political savvy that it marks them as incompetent to rule a country.

[Rater202]

I am pretty sure that the Empire is letting the Thalmor go beyond their treaty-granted authority without challenge in Skyrim.
If you talk to a Thalmor patrol random encounter they'll openly try to kill you if you try to dodge their questions.

Or if you admit to being a Talos worshiper, which suggests that the people they're arresting... aren't Talos worshipers, but other people being arrested for Talos worship as a pretext.

Additionally, by Skyrim's laws Ulfric is the rightful High King, moot pending, so even if he's a **** he's got a point.

He's not gonna be good for Skyrim long term, but then again I don't see the Empire doing well long term, either. You can say they're building strength all you want but the Thalmor basically stole half the Empire and successfully rewrote history and it's very strongly implied that the loss of the Septim Line has...

...There's some Lore that suggests that Sithiswill only accept the Black Sacrement if executing the contract will bring about a net good for the world. In that context, killing the current Emperor being the result of the sacrement is... It has implications.

I fully expect that ES6 is going to dodge answering who won the Civil War by having something bad have happened sometime after the events of the game tha could have been prevented if the Dragonborn did things that they can't actually do in the game.

[Errorname]

I think it's a surprisingly well constructed conflict for modern Bethesda, even if the actual quests are pretty trash.

It's also clearly already a war that is lost, no matter who wins. The Thalmor already got everything they wanted

Picking up the moral argument, the Empire explicitly followed the letter of the law in a treaty designed to give them enough time to amass forces against the existential threat of the Thalmor, and had the good sense not to ENFORCE the damn thing

The White-Gold Concordat is a bad treaty specifically designed to create a peace where the Thalmor could rebuild their strength while preventing the Empire from doing the same and the Empire were fools to take the deal.

They conceded a lot, not just worship of a major god (basically designed to stoke religious conflict) and giving the Thalmor free reign to enforce that ban within the Empire's borders but also hanging an entire province out to dry and allowing their enemy to eliminate all their best covert agents

In theory I want to side with the rebels, because ultimately I think everyone in the setting needs to be operating on the assumption that the Empire isn't gonna be around in a decade or so, but the Stormcloaks and all their nonsense ultimately aren't much more viable as an option.

[Keltest]

I think it's a surprisingly well constructed conflict for modern Bethesda, even if the actual quests are pretty trash.

It's also clearly already a war that is lost, no matter who wins. The Thalmor already got everything they wanted



The White-Gold Concordat is a bad treaty specifically designed to create a peace where the Thalmor could rebuild their strength while preventing the Empire from doing the same and the Empire were fools to take the deal.

They conceded a lot, not just worship of a major god (basically designed to stoke religious conflict) and giving the Thalmor free reign to enforce that ban within the Empire's borders but also hanging an entire province out to dry and allowing their enemy to eliminate all their best covert agents

In theory I want to side with the rebels, because ultimately I think everyone in the setting needs to be operating on the assumption that the Empire isn't gonna be around in a decade or so, but the Stormcloaks and all their nonsense ultimately aren't much more viable as an option.

Assuming youre talking about Hammerfell, theres a lot of cloak and dagger support going their way from the Empire, which is part of the reason theyre able to do what theyre doing. The situation is more complicated than you described, as the Concordant was agreed to by the Empire specifically because it was allowing them time to rebuild and recover too.

The Thalmor also dont/didnt have free reign to enforce the Talos ban within the Empire until Ulfric made a point of very publicly violating that ban. Before that, it was enforced by the Empire, who didnt care to do so beyond lip service.

[Errorname]

The situation is more complicated than you described, as the Concordant was agreed to by the Empire specifically because it was allowing them time to rebuild and recover too.

That's certainly what the Empire wants to do, but as a consequence of the terms they agreed to they can't. The White-Gold Concordat is hilariously lopsided in the Thalmor's favour. Allowing your enemy to censor your religion, hanging all your best operatives out to dry, letting your enemy continue to wage war against one of your own territories? There's not much silver lining there.

Again, it is a peace deal that is designed to give the Thalmor time to recover while denying the Empire the opportunity to do the same, and it is clearly very effective at that.

The Thalmor also dont/didnt have free reign to enforce the Talos ban within the Empire until Ulfric made a point of very publicly violating that ban. Before that, it was enforced by the Empire, who didnt care to do so beyond lip service.

They almost certainly had free reign to operate within the Empire in order to pursue their campaign against the Blades, and it's not like the empire getting bullied into giving the Thalmor free reign to religiously persecute citizens of the Empire after people refused to comply with the concession imposed by a hated enemy is much better than giving it away to begin with.

[Keltest]

That's certainly what the Empire wants to do, but as a consequence of the terms they agreed to they can't. The White-Gold Concordat is hilariously lopsided in the Thalmor's favour. Allowing your enemy to censor your religion, hanging all your best operatives out to dry, letting your enemy continue to wage war against one of your own territories? There's not much silver lining there.

Again, it is a peace deal that is designed to give the Thalmor time to recover while denying the Empire the opportunity to do the same, and it is clearly very effective at that.

The Thalmor werent allowed to enforce it, their best operatives were already dead (it was literally how the Thalmor declared war) and they didnt "let" the enemy continue to wage war, that territory declared that they did not accept the concordant and started winning the war on their home front.

They almost certainly had free reign to operate within the Empire in order to pursue their campaign against the Blades, and it's not like the empire getting bullied into giving the Thalmor free reign to religiously persecute citizens of the Empire after people refused to comply with the concession imposed by a hated enemy is much better than giving it away to begin with.

Again, the Thalmor did not have free reign to do that until Ulfric made it blatantly obvious that the Empire was not abiding by the terms of the Concordant. There was no religious persecution going on until after Ulfric, specifically, made a big deal about how it wasnt going on on his watch.

[Cikomyr2]

The Septim Empire is already dead by the time Skyrim comes a knocking.

It just hasnt stopped going through the motions yet. But as a military-political power, it is rife with corruption and innefficiencies to the point the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts.

Its like the Western Roman Empire after the sack of Rome.

Its Emperor is the assassination target from one of his top advisor. The Empire Trading company is just acting in shady businesses to enrich people at the capital. It has abolished the Mage Guild so there's no more centralized teaching of magic. It signed away a province in defeat that kept successfully fighting off the Altmer without the Empire support.

It wants to reassert its control of Skyrim, but not for the Nords' sake. They just want to make sure a new generation of Nord warriors to be drafted and sent to the grinder in far of land in the next war.

Their appointed High Queen of Skyrim is a puppet to her advisor. She has no ability to rule her fief, is being obeyed at the goodwill of her three main advisors (Tulius the Imperial, her Vampire Wizard and Firebeard her lover).

The situation of the Empire is the same as the roman empire of the 5th century. It is old, corrupt, weak and experience internal upheaval as often as external challenges. That's not to skip over the fact that they've let the Thalmor operate within their border with absolute impunity. Basically in the guise of them "enforcing the treaty" they are allowing the Elven KGB operate in the open in their own land, while they've abandoned their own counterintelligence organisation.

The Empire is already dead, and unless there's a massive paradigm change (like a Dragonborn seizing the throne and starting a 4th Empire/Dynasty), it will not recover.

Tamriel is better off with new ruling institutions in its place. Cyrodillians should care about their own land rather than force their rulership obsession on their neighbors.

[Errorname]

Again, the Thalmor did not have free reign to do that until Ulfric made it blatantly obvious that the Empire was not abiding by the terms of the Concordant. There was no religious persecution going on until after Ulfric, specifically, made a big deal about how it wasnt going on on his watch.

The Markarth Uprising was something the Concordat was designed to create. Ulfric is not blameless, the Thalmor were playing him like a fiddle, but the Thalmor pushing to be allowed to suppress Talos worship within the Empire's borders was something they were always going to try and do, and that the Empire let them says nothing good about it's long term viability.

[Keltest]

The Markarth Uprising was something the Concordat was designed to create. Ulfric is not blameless, the Thalmor were playing him like a fiddle, but the Thalmor pushing to be allowed to suppress Talos worship within the Empire's borders was something they were always going to try and do, and that the Empire let them says nothing good about it's long term viability.

As I said, the Empire did not "let" them, they were forced to do so because of Ulfric. The failure was not agreeing to the Concordant, the failure was some internal members (Ulfric) were apparently idiots who failed to realize what the point of agreeing to it in the first place was, and failed to act accordingly.

[Errorname]

As I said, the Empire did not "let" them, they were forced to do so because of Ulfric. The failure was not agreeing to the Concordant, the failure was some internal members (Ulfric) were apparently idiots who failed to realize what the point of agreeing to it in the first place was, and failed to act accordingly.

Expecting people to just accept that their religious practices would be suppressed in order to appease a hated enemy is a fool's bet. What Ulfric did made things worse, no doubt, but ultimately the Empire letting the Thalmor send their hit squads deep into imperial territory to religiously persecute imperial citizens is a failure of the Empire more than anyone else.

[Cikomyr2]

As I said, the Empire did not "let" them, they were forced to do so because of Ulfric. The failure was not agreeing to the Concordant, the failure was some internal members (Ulfric) were apparently idiots who failed to realize what the point of agreeing to it in the first place was, and failed to act accordingly.

But if it hadnt been Ulfric it had been someone else. Ulfric wasnt some High King, direct vassal of the Empire. He wasnt even Jarl of Windhelm at the time. He was just one of many citizen of the Empire, and if the only thing it took is one uprising demanding the right of Talos Worship, you can consider this an inevitability.

What you say is that the Empire was banking on their entire citizenry accepting to abandon worship of Talos without reaction, just for "a few decades", in order to perpetuate the governing structure that failed to defend them and abandonned Hammerfell.

As i say, the Empire is already dead. It parasites its vassal provinces to reinforce its center, but waste most of that strenght to internal politics and patronage by weak emperors who haven't had a legitimate mandate since the Oblivion Crisis killed the last of the Septim bloodline.

[Keltest]

But if it hadnt been Ulfric it had been someone else. Ulfric wasnt some High King, direct vassal of the Empire. He wasnt even Jarl of Windhelm at the time. He was just one of many citizen of the Empire, and if the only thing it took is one uprising demanding the right of Talos Worship, you can consider this an inevitability.

What you say is that the Empire was banking on their entire citizenry accepting to abandon worship of Talos without reaction, just for "a few decades", in order to perpetuate the governing structure that failed to defend them and abandonned Hammerfell.

As i say, the Empire is already dead. It parasites its vassal provinces to reinforce its center, but waste most of that strenght to internal politics and patronage by weak emperors who haven't had a legitimate mandate since the Oblivion Crisis killed the last of the Septim bloodline.

Ok, except they weren't banking on that because they hadn't actually de-facto banned Talos worship. People were perfectly able to do it in the Empire until Ulfric went and caused a fuss, as long as they didn't boast about how they were flouting the ban. Its explicit in game that Ulfric's attempt to re-instate Talos worship actually made it harder for most people.

[Errorname]

Ok, except they weren't banking on that because they hadn't actually de-facto banned Talos worship. People were perfectly able to do it in the Empire until Ulfric went and caused a fuss, as long as they didn't boast about how they were flouting the ban. Its explicit in game that Ulfric's attempt to re-instate Talos worship actually made it harder for most people.

The thing I would dispute is not that the Markarth Uprising didn't make the Talos ban worse, it clearly did, but rather that if it hadn't happened things would have been just fine. The Thalmor manipulated Ulfric into doing what he did, and if it hadn't worked with him they'd have tried somewhere else. There's certainly no shortage of Nords in Skyrim who love Talos and have poor judgement. The Thalmor being able to enforce the ban is a natural consequence of accepting the Concordat and the Empire's inability to actually stand up to the Dominion.

[Keltest]

The thing I would dispute is not that the Markarth Uprising didn't make the Talos ban worse, it clearly did, but rather that if it hadn't happened things would have been just fine. The Thalmor manipulated Ulfric into doing what he did, and if it hadn't worked with him they'd have tried somewhere else. There's certainly no shortage of Nords in Skyrim who love Talos and have poor judgement. The Thalmor being able to enforce the ban is a natural consequence of accepting the Concordat and the Empire's inability to actually stand up to the Dominion.

I disagree. The Empire enforces the ban in their land. The Concordant doesnt allow the Thalmor to just police the Empire willy nilly. As we see in a few quests, the Thalmor are still subordinate to the Empire in name and are officially acting as witnesses and assistants to make sure that the Empire is following the treaty. The problem wasnt that they caught wind that the Empire wasnt enforcing the ban, the problem was that the Empire had to officially stop enforcing the ban, which they werent allowed to do. Anything else, like the Thalmor patrols just overtly attacking people, are still illegal even in Imperial territories, which is why you dont get a bounty for defending yourself from them.

[Cikomyr2]

I disagree. The Empire enforces the ban in their land. The Concordant doesnt allow the Thalmor to just police the Empire willy nilly. As we see in a few quests, the Thalmor are still subordinate to the Empire in name and are officially acting as witnesses and assistants to make sure that the Empire is following the treaty. The problem wasnt that they caught wind that the Empire wasnt enforcing the ban, the problem was that the Empire had to officially stop enforcing the ban, which they werent allowed to do. Anything else, like the Thalmor patrols just overtly attacking people, are still illegal even in Imperial territories, which is why you dont get a bounty for defending yourself from them.

Then the Empire is incompetent in protecting its citizens from unilateral Thalmor justice. There's no way to spin this otherwise. The Empire is impotent, weak, fractured and corrupt.

And you completely leave unaddressed the fact that the Markath Incident was probably prompted by the Thalmor. Documents in the game highlights how Ulfric became uncooperative after the incident, which implies whatever illusion Ulfric held regarding the Thalmor was broken at that time, so (hypothesis -->) perhaps they prompted him in retaking Markath from the Forsworn with promise they'd make an exception for Talos worship there, and he foolishly believed them. Instead they used it as a rationale for enforcing the treaty in a way that would further turn imperial corruption and innefficiencies on itself.

It is very likely that the Incident was initiated by the Thalmor, so nothing to say if they had failed in co-opting Ulfric they would have sought to create another Talos-related crisis. It was just a question of time because the Thalmor had an active agenda in pushing for this to happen to keep weakening the Empire.

Because the Empire is weak, corrupt and impotent.

[Keltest]

Then the Empire is incompetent in protecting its citizens from unilateral Thalmor justice. There's no way to spin this otherwise. The Empire is impotent, weak, fractured and corrupt.

And you completely leave unaddressed the fact that the Markath Incident was probably prompted by the Thalmor. Documents in the game highlights how Ulfric became uncooperative after the incident, which implies whatever illusion Ulfric held regarding the Thalmor was broken at that time, so (hypothesis -->) perhaps they prompted him in retaking Markath from the Forsworn with promise they'd make an exception for Talos worship there, and he foolishly believed them. Instead they used it as a rationale for enforcing the treaty in a way that would further turn imperial corruption and innefficiencies on itself.

It is very likely that the Incident was initiated by the Thalmor, so nothing to say if they had failed in co-opting Ulfric they would have sought to create another Talos-related crisis. It was just a question of time because the Thalmor had an active agenda in pushing for this to happen to keep weakening the Empire.

Because the Empire is weak, corrupt and impotent.

Theres basically no support for that hypothesis. Ulfric was only ever an unwilling asset to be manipulated, not one who actively worked with the Thalmor. He started hostile to them and got more so over time, its just that he's really, really stupid and politically inept.

Which goes back to the civil war and attached problems being Ulfric's fault, specifically.

[Errorname]

Documents in the game highlights how Ulfric became uncooperative after the incident, which implies whatever illusion Ulfric held regarding the Thalmor was broken at that time, so (hypothesis -->) perhaps they prompted him in retaking Markath from the Forsworn with promise they'd make an exception for Talos worship there, and he foolishly believed them

I have a hard time imagining a man who was tortured by the Thalmor being too keen to take them at their word. I would assume they were acting through a catspaw that he did trust in order to manipulate him, and that trust was broken after the incident.

There's basically no support for that hypothesis.

That he was working for the Thalmor knowingly, sure. That the Markarth Incident was engineered by the Thalmor is confirmed by the Thalmor's own documents, and that the Empire is weak, corrupt and impotent is obvious to anyone who is paying attention.

[Cikomyr2]

I have a hard time imagining a man who was tortured by the Thalmor being too keen to take them at their word. I would assume they were acting through a catspaw that he did trust in order to manipulate him, and that trust was broken after the incident.



That he was working for the Thalmor knowingly, sure. That the Markarth Incident was engineered by the Thalmor is not hypothesis is confirmed by the Thalmor's own documents, and that the Empire is weak, corrupt and impotent is obvious to anyone who is paying attention.

Lets make sure nobody misremembers the document in question.

Spoiler: The Only Thalmor document in Skyrim about Ulfric Stormcloak

Show

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of the Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background:
Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

The document sequentially transitions between talking about Ulfric's value as an asset and the "particularly valuable" Markath Incident, ***resulting*** in Ulfric breaking away from the Thalmor influence/intelligence network.

It definetly is not a smoking gun explanation of the events that happened in Markath. But this isnt a Markath Incident dossier. I believe the evidence leads us to understand the Thalmor had fingers in the Markath Pie.

This was twenty years before the game tho. We dont know how much Ulfric gets to think about his past association with the Thalmor, or the undercover Thalmor agent he stopped talking to. (There's no indication Ulfric knew he was a Thalmor agent either, manipulated by a Thalmor mole that could get close to him.)

[Keltest]

Lets make sure nobody misremembers the document in question.

Spoiler: The Only Thalmor document in Skyrim about Ulfric Stormcloak

Show

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of the Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background:
Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

The document sequentially transitions between talking about Ulfric's value as an asset and the "particularly valuable" Markath Incident, ***resulting*** in Ulfric breaking away from the Thalmor influence/intelligence network.

It definetly is not a smoking gun explanation of the events that happened in Markath. But this isnt a Markath Incident dossier. I believe the evidence leads us to understand the Thalmor had fingers in the Markath Pie.

This was twenty years before the game tho. We dont know how much Ulfric gets to think about his past association with the Thalmor, or the undercover Thalmor agent he stopped talking to. (There's no indication Ulfric knew he was a Thalmor agent either, manipulated by a Thalmor mole that could get close to him.)

The Markarth Incident is useful because it gave them the ability to operate in Skyrim more directly, but theres no indication anywhere in game that they instigated it. The Thalmor are not the only group antagonistic to the Empire in Tamriel, and a big part of their MO is taking advantage of other, unrelated threats to advance their agenda in an area. Its how they came to power, after all.

Of note, the Markarth Incident is where he forms his army and starts acting on his own agenda more directly, as well as surrounding himself with other advisors and the like rather than acting as a lone individual.

[Cikomyr2]

The Markarth Incident is useful because it gave them the ability to operate in Skyrim more directly, but theres no indication anywhere in game that they instigated it. The Thalmor are not the only group antagonistic to the Empire in Tamriel, and a big part of their MO is taking advantage of other, unrelated threats to advance their agenda in an area. Its how they came to power, after all.

If we didnt knew that the main instigator of the Markath Incident was a Thalmor agent at the time, i would agree with you. Automatically assuming the Thalmor was behind it would be Delphine-like paranoia.

But i believe this document is the single best source of inside information we have about the Incident. We can never ask Ulfric about it (goddamn you Bethesda). The more likely conclusion is that Ulfric was prompted/directed/encouraged by Thalmor contact, that may or may not have provided ressource, assurances, intelligence to facilitate Ulfric's operation to retake the dwarvenhold.

[Keltest]

If we didnt knew that the main instigator of the Markath Incident was a Thalmor agent at the time, i would agree with you. Automatically assuming the Thalmor was behind it would be Delphine-like paranoia.

But i believe this document is the single best source of inside information we have about the Incident. We can never ask Ulfric about it (goddamn you Bethesda). The more likely conclusion is that Ulfric was prompted/directed/encouraged by Thalmor contact, that may or may not have provided ressource, assurances, intelligence to facilitate Ulfric's operation to retake the dwarvenhold.

Do you mean Madanach? Because I really want to see a citation on him being a Thalmor agent.

[GloatingSwine]

There weren't any Thalmor agents involved in the Markarth incident, it was Jarl Hrolfdir who instigated a purge of the Reachmen and the Imperials who blamed it on Ulfric. Which is where the hand of the Thalmor would come in because the Imperials are spineless puppets.

Hail Sithis

[Rynjin]

So the thing is, yeah, the Empire is in a weakened state. But that makes it all the more important for them to not allow themselves to get weaker.

And allowing a province to erupt in armed rebellion is a death knell fro a state. They'd lose the entire empire. A state cannot allow that to happen; it is antithetical to how they work.

The funny thing is, if Skyrim had turned their anger toward the true enemy, they could have forced the Empire to give them their freedom without fighting the Imperials. That's essentially what happened with Hammerfell, after all. It's left a little vague as to whether Hammerfell breaking free was truly a break or it was pre-arranged with the Emperor and the leader of the province, but in either case it was a success.

If Ulfric or a similar figure had surreptitiously approached the throne to propose that they were going to wipe out Thalmor presence in Skyrim...they likely may have found the throne receptive to this idea. But they didn't. Instead, they chose open rebellion and, frankly, a return to barbarism in the process.

[GloatingSwine]

So the thing is, yeah, the Empire is in a weakened state. But that makes it all the more important for them to not allow themselves to get weaker.

There isn't really an "Empire" to speak of though.

Black Marsh has seceded, Morrowind is in ruins, Valenwood and Elsweyr are taken by the Aldmeri Dominion and what there is of the Empire is essentially forced to accept Aldmeri supremacy. (Remember as well that Talos is explicitly an ascended human, which is why the elves banned worship of him)

Time for Pelinal Whitestrake to come back, methinks...

[Cikomyr2]

Do you mean Madanach? Because I really want to see a citation on him being a Thalmor agent.

Oh not at all. I dont think the Forsworns were under Thalmor control, there's no evidence pointing at a relation.

Actually, i think its more likely Hrolfdir baited Ulfric at the Thalmor's suggestion, and then turned on his ally to make the whole scandal. But its completely circumstantial reasoning without an ounce of evidence to back it up.