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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting recs)

    In many settings mages can fire of quick and combat applicable spells. (Especially in game settings because they need something to do.) I feel like reading a setting where mages can't do that either because their spells aren't fast (ritual casting/long spells for instance or take time to take effect) or just don't really have direct blast spells I guess. But not something where magic is weak or ultra rare. (Ideally the protagonists have a mage.)

    Like if a mage can conjure up a torrential rainfall to mess with an army but needs protection or secrecy while doing that it is just a different dynamic than if the mage is out there fighting with the rest of the team slinging fireballs and trying to get direct kills. (Or if the mage sets up illusions or creates a portal in some long ritual...)

    So any good recommendations?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Are you looking for a setting where combat magic doesn’t exist or just isn’t used as an instant “I win” button? I want to recommend “The Shadow of What Was Lost”* by James Islington but I’m not sure if it meets your requirements.

    The premise is that some time ago someone cast a super-spell so that all the mages can’t cast spells to harm non-mages.


    *Full disclosure: it’s the first of a trilogy and I have yet to read the rest of the trilogy.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    I think it's the videogame Last Story, where casters have to stand and cast for 15 seconds or so, and defending your casters and interrupting your opponent's casters is a large part of the tactics of the game.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    In the spellsong cycle series, you have to literally sing a song to make magic happen. Most need musical accompaniment. Now, it CAN happen in as few as a couple lines, but nobody is going, "BURN!" and having the field catch fire. Its more, "I call the flame unto the field, in order to lower the yearly yield" or whatever. And often we are talking full verses 4+ lines long. So its hardly rapid fire, but its also not incredibly drawn out. But there are plenty of scenes iirc where the main character is scrambling to react to an ambush and needs time to warm up her voice and belt out the lyrics to an effective songspell. Because you cant just go from sound asleep to full operatic voice in 5 seconds flat.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Conan?

    Wizards are dangerous in the strategic sense, but no match for a mighty set of thews.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    The Witcher is like this. A prepared wizard can kick anybody's ass, including Geralt. A wizard who is not prepared can be taken out by a well aimed rock, or even just by being punched in the face. Especially if that punch is thrown by a Witcher with superhuman reflexes. Various wizards throughout the series get their teeth knocked out by Geralt when they try to throw a fireball at him. The one who whomps Geralt in single combat does so by buffing himself before combat and uses an enchanted steel staff to beat him in a conventional fight.
    Last edited by Rodin; 2021-08-14 at 05:05 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    The magic system in The Emperor's Soul by Brandon Sanderson fits. Forgers can create powerful transformations, from things as trivial as turning a crude clay pot into a beautifully sculpted vase up through healing deadly wounds and other effects that are spoilers. However, practicing the magic takes way too much time for it to be used directly in combat. Note that the book is set in the same world as Elantris, and both books are part of the larger Cosmere. Many of the Cosmere magic systems are very capable of spell combat, but you won't see them in The Emperor's Soul.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Conan?

    Wizards are dangerous in the strategic sense, but no match for a mighty set of thews.
    Not really. I recently read some of the early Conan stories, and while they need preparation, the wizards have plenty of combat tricks, in addition to the strategic tricks.

    Even Conan gets taken out by some, though he wins overall as he's the hero.

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Not exactly what you're looking for, but Shakugan no Shana had a strong "party wizard" dynamic with the character of Margery. She can do combat (and is pretty physical even, since her pact lets her turn into a bear-like creature), but the main way she contributes is by having a better understanding of spells than anyone else. Whenever villains trap the city inside a magical barrier, it's up to the rest of the group to protect Margery until she can find the core of the enchantment, figure out its structure and shut it down. Also the demon she's pacted with takes the form of a book, and she can supply other characters with bookmarks with various utility effects - e.g working like communicators, or allowing Muggles to act inside the timestop fields that supernatural beings generate when they fight.



    In Fullmetal Alchemist, alchemy normally requires scribing a transmutation circle on the ground around your target, then pressing your hands against it and activating it. Both steps can get pretty long and involved depending on what you're trying to do, making it hard to pull off in a fight.

    Some alchemists get around this by carrying pre-made transmutation circles for specific tasks (e.g. there are soldiers who wear combat-suitable circles on their gloves or gauntlets). And the very few people who have seen the Door of Truth can perform basic transmutation just by clapping their hands together to form a circle with their arms. But even then, they're mostly limited to changing the shape of things rather than "blasting" - there's exactly one guy who can create fire with alchemy, and another who turns things into bombs, with both skills being treated as pretty much unique. The protagonist for instance mostly uses alchemy on nearby earth/stone in order to create or remove walls, or to create weapons to fight with.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2021-08-15 at 10:38 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    To a certain extent RuneQuest Sorcery from the Avalon Hill 3rd Ed was this - sorcery spells usually took multiple rounds to cast, especially if the sorceror spend a few rounds in a ceremony to bring this or her casting chance up to a reaosnable number. Of course, once the spell went off it usually ended the fight.

    Then, because the Sorcery rules were generally regarded as nearly unworkable Sandy Petersen published a revised version online - and in some respects they were mroe controlled, (the power was more limited).
    Part of the new system was the ability for sorcerors to take vows to enable them to castmore complex spells (i.e. increasing their personal power cap). Amongst the suggested vows wqas a beauty intended for the sorcerors of Brithos a vanished island where the inhabitants were immortal providing they kept to their true faith:
    • Never cast a spell without spending a year in a ceremony first.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Thieves' World sounds close to what you want.

    All of the magic is, as D&D would put it, 'Ritual' and requires quite elaborate preparation as well as time investment to get right, and it tends to have more general effects that 'Fireball' - changing the weather, putting a curse on someone, etc. You can knock out a spell every minute or two if you really, really try, but to do that you'll have had to set up multiple magical circles right next to each other ahead of time, and hop from one to the next.
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Romance of the Three Kingdoms has a number of instances of ritual magic, from the avalanches and hurricanes conjured up by the wizards/shamans of the Yellow Turban Rebellion to Zhuge Liang himself having an altar set up for a days long ritual to summon a strong wind for the Battle of Chibi.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Lyndon Hardy's "Magic By the Numbers" trilogy is like that. There are 5 basic types of magic: Thaumaturgy, Alchemy, Sorcery, Magic, and Wizardry. None of them have quick uses.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    Not really. I recently read some of the early Conan stories, and while they need preparation, the wizards have plenty of combat tricks, in addition to the strategic tricks.

    Even Conan gets taken out by some, though he wins overall as he's the hero.
    I only remember Conan losing to a Wizard who had the drop on him

    Most of the time when Wizards could easily turnaround, they would pull pre-prepared tricks and spells. The potential exception is the guy with the ring of Set in the first Conan story, summoning the shadows assassins to kill him. I never understood why he bothered to kill King Conan, as he only supported the conspiracy because he was a slave to the lead conspirator

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    In many settings mages can fire of quick and combat applicable spells. (Especially in game settings because they need something to do.) I feel like reading a setting where mages can't do that either because their spells aren't fast (ritual casting/long spells for instance or take time to take effect) or just don't really have direct blast spells I guess. But not something where magic is weak or ultra rare. (Ideally the protagonists have a mage.)

    Like if a mage can conjure up a torrential rainfall to mess with an army but needs protection or secrecy while doing that it is just a different dynamic than if the mage is out there fighting with the rest of the team slinging fireballs and trying to get direct kills. (Or if the mage sets up illusions or creates a portal in some long ritual...)

    So any good recommendations?
    This sounds like the magic in the old computer game Master of Magic
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    At least the magic the player did.

    There were battle wizard units that could cast minor spells in combat, but you were doing it from your nice safe tower on another plane of reality.

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    I only remember Conan losing to a Wizard who had the drop on him

    Most of the time when Wizards could easily turnaround, they would pull pre-prepared tricks and spells. The potential exception is the guy with the ring of Set in the first Conan story, summoning the shadows assassins to kill him. I never understood why he bothered to kill King Conan, as he only supported the conspiracy because he was a slave to the lead conspirator
    He didn't. Thoth-Amon tasked the demon with killing his master and everybody with him. The demon didn't care that Conan was fighting these people: he was in the room with them, he had to die.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-08-15 at 06:34 PM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. I don't remember a single "combat spell" in the book. Even when Jonathan Strange is
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    trying to assist the Duke of Wellington on his Peninsular Campaign, he's mostly doing things like creating roads so that armies can march faster or using speak-with-dead spells for intelligence.

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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    The Webmage series by Kelly Mccullough falls pretty heavily under this. Most spells require whistling it in binary. Now AIs can do this relatively quickly. But for people it is much more difficult and much slower. And even then, the spells aren't crazy effective. Like, a fireball isn't some super powered fire that instantly reduces people to burnt bones. It's just fire, painful and potentially deadly sure, but when it comes to killing things a gun is much more effective. There is raw sorcery but that's even more clunky and difficult to use than a coded spell.

    There's also Divine magic (most of the characters are some level of demigod or flat out god) as well as Chaos magic. Both which bypass the situation above, but are much more incidental and limited. Like sure, Zeus can throw a lightning bolt that can kill pretty much anyone. But Athena can't do that. While Chaos magic can do a bunch of stuff but pretty much only the Goddess of Chaos can actually use it safely.


    Their other series the Fallen Blade is similar, but they do have more magic that is faster. But every mage has their own limitations depending on what their familiar is.
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Oh I forgot to add in my example of spellsong cycle. Its not weak. She basically starts at wiping out armies with a spell and things get crazy by the end of the series. Too be fair her bread and butter spell is to have everyone on her side fire arrows at once then she uses her spell to make each arrow impale a different enemy. So its a group effort, but she can also destroy the heck out of the landscape if she has to. So yeah, far from weak.
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. I don't remember a single "combat spell" in the book. Even when Jonathan Strange is
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    trying to assist the Duke of Wellington on his Peninsular Campaign, he's mostly doing things like creating roads so that armies can march faster or using speak-with-dead spells for intelligence.
    So, I adore this book, I think it's honestly it's the best fantasy novel written since Lord of the Rings was published and everyone should read it. There is a bit of "combat magic" though - one of the characters who ends up in the middle of the battle of Waterloo is forced to use magic to defend himself, but it's not what magic is really for, or the most effective use of it. And in a short story set in the same universe it's shown that faerie magic can just kill people straight out (faeries are serious jerks in this world).

    I think it's best summed up by this exchange:

    “Can a magician kill a man by magic?” Lord Wellington asked Strange.

    Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. “I suppose a magician might,” he admitted, “but a gentleman never could.”
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    Default Re: Settings with magic not suited for fast spell combat? (but not weak)(requesting r

    In most of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories, magic is long and ritualistic, used for summoning creatures from other planes or moving oneself there. I can't think of a single instance of anyone using combat magic in all the books - the closest I can think of is the character Corum, who had a magic hand that could crush someone's heart from afar, and a magic eye that could look into a demi-plane and summon magic creatures as fast a a DnD Summon Monster spell, but these were incredibly powerful artifacts that he couldn't always control and eventually loses.

    Moorcock's most famous character Elric is the most powerful sorcerer of his world, but all his rituals take a lot of time and involve getting help from some powerful entity - with very powerful effects - but he's doesn't cast spells directly and he fights in armor with a sword like everyone else (except that his sword is a demon sword that sucks your soul out).
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