Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?

[Justyz]

It seems that our heroes, despite being high level PCs, can't seem to make a save to, well, save their lives.

If anything they need to be grateful that 1 hit kill attacks like horrid wilting or slay living were stopped in their tracks before being completed - because it seems like nobody almost ever manages to avoid the full effect of the attack.

Considering save-based attacks almost always hit fully, aren't they over powered? They were supposed to originally work only occasionally, and then have an extreme damage (for their spell level). Instead they hit all of the time, so instead of being a kind of a gamble where it's high risk (save made) - high reward (save failed) it's not a gamble at all, making them a much better choice then normal attacks.

This is especially true in the last comic - the multi-eyed monster can drop 7 (maybe even 8) hits in one round and all of them are successful - if they can do that why even bother with other tactics?

[Peelee]

if they can do that why even bother with other tactics?

Because the author doesn't care about what is optimal or statistical likely. He cares about what makes an interesting story.

I am now going to rant:



Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

[Fyraltari]

No.

[Mike Havran]

This is especially true in the last comic - the multi-eyed monster can drop 7 (maybe even 8) hits in one round and all of them are successful - if they can do that why even bother with other tactics?

Actually, Durkon made his save, Haley did not get to make the save and Belkar and Elan are notorious for sucky Will saves. So it is not that bad.

[Metastachydium]

No.

(See also basically every time Redcloak tries to use Disintegrate.)

[Peelee]

(See also basically every time Redcloak tries to use Disintegrate.)

Unsurprisingly, the author also has words to say about Disintegrate.

Disintegrate is a very useful spell for OOTS because it is equally plausible to utterly obliterate someone as it is to barely inconvenience them—it's the "swingiest" damage spell. Thus, there's a lot more uncertainty as to the outcome, which makes it more useful in storytelling. A person can get hit full force, they can get hit for partial force, or they can be missed entirely, and it's up to me which one of those happens. There's no collateral damage, which means it only hits the target I want to hit. If it kills, it makes Resurrection much harder without needing to do anything extra. And there's no well-established means of becoming immune to it, so no can tell me that OF COURSE Character X should have had Resist Disintegration cast come on do you even PLAY D&D????

[Metastachydium]

Unsurprisingly, the author also has words to say about Disintegrate.

Yeah, I know, but, y'see, how is it fair that he never gets to vaporize any of the most important characters in the comic (or, at least, Hinjo)?

[ORione]

No.

OOTS would be a better story if more of its fights looked like that.

[Riftwolf]

Why are we talking about save-or-dies being op when d% random effects up the CR of an encounter by an order of magnitude?
This originally referred to Qarr summoning a Pit Fiend, but also on the same strip, a d% causes a double roll on the random encounter table! D%s are Vicious in Oots...

[Mastikator]

They just sometimes roll poorly. A nat 1 is always a failed save no matter how good stats you have.

[Yanisa]

A bit of geekery, but in straight D&D stats the Order doesn't have the best of saves. A lot of people seem to think the order has insanely high stats, or magic items, or buffs to saves, but in generally the Order (and most people in the comic) aren't highly optimized. Based on the Geekery thread, I figured these numbers out:

V has +10 Will
Durkon has +9 Fort
Minrah has +9 Fort
Mr. Scruffy has +9 Will
Elan has +8 Will
Haley has a +7 Will
Belkar has +6 Will

(For more details my original post)

The handbook Beholder has a DC of 17. While this means the Party (except Belkar) is at good odds to make saves, at the same time even the best one (V) has a 30% chance to fail.

So while unlucky, it doesn't seem too unlikely.

[Metastachydium]

A bit of geekery, but in straight D&D stats the Order doesn't have the best of saves. A lot of people seem to think the order has insanely high stats, or magic items, or buffs to saves, but in generally the Order (and most people in the comic) aren't highly optimized. Based on the Geekery thread, I figured these numbers out:

V has +10 Will
Durkon has +9 Fort
Minrah has +9 Fort
Mr. Scruffy has +9 Will
Elan has +8 Will
Haley has a +7 Will
Belkar has +6 Will

(For more details my original post)

The handbook Beholder has a DC of 17. While this means the Party (except Belkar) is at good odds to make saves, at the same time even the best one (V) has a 30% chance to fail.

So while unlucky, it doesn't seem too unlikely.

Those are fair approximations, but in most cases they should, perhaps, read "+[number] or more" (the value for V assumes that "moderate WIS" means "no bonus, no penalty"; meanwhile, the figures for Durkon and Minrah assume they had invested absolutely nothing into CON (which would be just plain weird even at the Order's level of optimization)). As for Elan, I'm pretty confident "+8 or (a lot) less" would be (a lot) more accurate, since judging by his actions, the comments of other characters and the fact I can't recall a single instance of his succesfully making a Will save, it is almost certain he has a WIS penalty (and probably not a small one at that).
The value for Belkar is likely spot on, though.

[madrobin]

Debating D&D rules back and forth is pointless. As Burlew has pointed out, this is a story crafted by him, not a D&D adventure. So if the plot requires that a blind, one-armed kobold armed with a sharpened pencil overwhelms the entire party, by golly, that's what's gonna happen.

Besides, the often total incompetence of the party has been an abiding and amusing theme of the entire series--to the point where it's surprising and pleasing when they don't butcher a situation. Their real improvement over the centuries (I think the series has taken that long; I'm not sure) has been that they now kinda sorta maybe in a way work together effectively and no one hates anyone else.

If OOTS were a space adventure, the heroes would be constantly crashing their spaceship into asteroids. If it were a western, the heroes would be accidentally shooting their own horses. If it were a war story, they'd get the maps wrong and invade and burn down a city in their own country. Enjoy it. Embrace it. What fun is a successful save, anyway?

[Jason]

If actual dice were being rolled then sure, it would be unlikely for all of the Order to miss their saves. Dice don't actually have anything to do with what happens in this comic though, do they?

[Quizatzhaderac]

Having read OotS first, and 3.5e rules second, I can say my expectation o how saves work (from OotS) doesn't really match the 3.5e rules.

Not to say that's a bad thing; c'est n'est pas un jouie de gorgons et gendarmeries. In many ways, I'd say OootS rules seem better, but questions remain of actually implement the apparent principles in a real game system.

The principles as I see them are thus:

1) People typically have good or bad saves. It's very rare for people to fail if they have a good save (see ultimate cleric duel) and very rare for one to pass with a bad save. This is somewhat true in 3.5e rules, but the degree is much more extreme in OotS.

2) There's a tradeoff where more devastating spells have less of a chance to succeed. This is actually the opposite of the rules since the power of the effect goes up with DC (as both are tied to spell level). But in OotS save or die spells tend to hit much less than save or annoyance spells.

3) Roy has a good will save. Not 15% more than Belkar, but enough to have several times the chance of saving the Belkar does.

Why are we talking about save-or-dies being op when d% random effects up the CR of an encounter by an order of magnitude?

Pedantic nitpick: an order of magnitude is ten times, which would mean instead of a CR 13 encounter they got a CR 130 encounter

[Fyraltari]

c'est n'est pas un jouie de gorgons et gendarmeries.

These are spelled jeu and gorgones. Also a gendarmerie is the building where the gendarmes are.

[Jason]

Pedantic nitpick: an order of magnitude is ten times, which would mean instead of a CR 13 encounter they got a CR 130 encounter

The encounter referenced is when Qarr the imp summoned a Pit Fiend. Imps are CR2 and Pit Fiends are CR20. So it was an order of magnitude increase in the difficulty of the encounter.

Incidentally it also violated the rules, since 3.5 imps don't have the ability to summon other devils.

[Peelee]

c'est n'est pas un jouie de gorgons et gendarmeries.

These are spelled jeu and gorgones. Also a gendarmerie is the building where the gendarmes are.

Sacrebleu!

Also, Fyraltari, bad news for you - now that I'm a documented EU citizen, I can move to France and and make my campaign in the heart of the land. To L'académie Française!

[Metastachydium]

The encounter referenced is when Qarr the imp summoned a Pit Fiend. Imps are CR2 and Pit Fiends are CR20. So it was an order of magnitude increase in the difficulty of the encounter.

Incidentally it also violated the rules, since 3.5 imps don't have the ability to summon other devils.

(Speaking of that (and saves), the island devil was also definitely larger than large (and I'd say larger than huge, even though that's not officially possible), which means that it had 37+ HD and, accordingly, a Will save modifier of +29 at the very least, which means that unless V's INT score is higher than 40 and Durkon has a WIS score of 38+, the devil had to roll a 1 twice in a row for Crushing Despair and Bestow Curse to even affect it, and after those it would have still had to roll a 2 at best for Prismatic Spray to work, assuming V's INT score is no higher than 24.)

[Jason]

(Speaking of that (and saves), the island devil was also definitely larger than large (and I'd say larger than huge, even though that's not officially possible), which means that it had 37+ HD and, accordingly, a Will save modifier of +29 at the very least, which means that unless V's INT score is higher than 40 and Durkon has a WIS score of 38+, the devil had to roll a 1 twice in a row for Crushing Despair and Bestow Curse to even affect it, and after those it would have still had to roll a 2 at best for Prismatic Spray to work, assuming V's INT score is no higher than 24.)

Plus all three spells somehow also overcame the Pit Fiend's Spell Resistance (32 for the basic CR20 Large Pit Fiend). When Durkon says V got lucky he wasn't kidding.

[Doug Lampert]

Having read OotS first, and 3.5e rules second, I can say my expectation o how saves work (from OotS) doesn't really match the 3.5e rules.

Not to say that's a bad thing; c'est n'est pas un jouie de gorgons et gendarmeries. In many ways, I'd say OootS rules seem better, but questions remain of actually implement the apparent principles in a real game system.

The principles as I see them are thus:

1) People typically have good or bad saves. It's very rare for people to fail if they have a good save (see ultimate cleric duel) and very rare for one to pass with a bad save. This is somewhat true in 3.5e rules, but the degree is much more extreme in OotS.

3.5 rules as opposed to the comic:
Baring multiclassing or magic items helping your save, your good save is AT BEST keeping up with the DCs, your bad saves are hopeless.

As you level, the casters add to their casting stat (which only for clerics helps saves at all), and their spell level goes up 1 every 2 levels (adding one to DC), and if they care the caster takes spell focus and greater spell focus giving +2 to DC (the monsters need only ability focus for a +2 to DC with one special attack), while the target needs 3 feats to improve all three saves.

Monsters typically go up in HD faster than PCs go up in level, and monsters simply add HD/2 to most DCs (same rate of increase as a good save, except with more HD so they outpace the PCs). Add four HD to Sunny, that's +1 to CR, +2 to all DCs, have fun if Sunny has +2 to CR due to aberration HD for +4 more to save DCs.

Speaking of which, the caster chooses what spell to cast and thus what save to hit.

Baring stacking resistance items or lots of multiclassing, saves actually ARE almost always failed at high level D&D. It's not hard to optimize saves, but if you don't do so, then your odds on GOOD saves get worse every level, and your odds on BAD saves crash and burn quickly.

Someone posted the order's likely saves, Belkar is the only character known to have done ANYTHING to improve his odds (he and Elan are also the only ones benefiting from the multiclass boost to good saves). If Sunny is elite, then Sunny's save DC goes up +2 or so. If Sunny has a NON-EPIC ability booster item, then the DC goes up 3; epic adds more. If Sunny has ability focus (the BtB beholder doesn't, but the GM is explicitly allowed to rechoose feats) then some of the eye rays have an additional +2.

Basically, the order can all plausibly fail saves against a straight BtB beholder, and it's not at all unreasonable for Sunny to be at +7 or more to that making failed saves an overwhelming favorite and one out of bunches made (Durkon) a pretty expected rate.

[Fyraltari]

Embrace it. What fun is a successful save, anyway?

Plenty.

Sacrebleu!

Also, Fyraltari, bad news for you - now that I'm a documented EU citizen, I can move to France and and make my campaign in the heart of the land. To L'académie Française!

Also, It's L'Académie française with capital L and A but a lower case f. They would care.

[Peelee]

They would care.

I would be disappointed if they didn't. Also, Google led me astray.

[Fyraltari]

I would be disappointed if they didn't. Also, Google led me astray.

The customs with regards to proper capitalization are a bit different between French and English and rather obscure, since no-one really cares. Just guess who published the guidelines about it?

[Peelee]

The customs with regards to proper capitalization are a bit different between French and English and rather obscure, since no-one really cares. Just guess who published the guidelines about it?

An Englishman who thought he was speaking Latin?

[Fyraltari]

An Englishman who thought he was speaking Latin?

No, I meant the French ones.

[Peelee]

No, I meant the French ones.

So did I, is the thing.

[hungrycrow]

3.5 rules as opposed to the comic:
Baring multiclassing or magic items helping your save, your good save is AT BEST keeping up with the DCs, your bad saves are hopeless.

As you level, the casters add to their casting stat (which only for clerics helps saves at all), and their spell level goes up 1 every 2 levels (adding one to DC), and if they care the caster takes spell focus and greater spell focus giving +2 to DC (the monsters need only ability focus for a +2 to DC with one special attack), while the target needs 3 feats to improve all three saves.

Monsters typically go up in HD faster than PCs go up in level, and monsters simply add HD/2 to most DCs (same rate of increase as a good save, except with more HD so they outpace the PCs). Add four HD to Sunny, that's +1 to CR, +2 to all DCs, have fun if Sunny has +2 to CR due to aberration HD for +4 more to save DCs.

Speaking of which, the caster chooses what spell to cast and thus what save to hit.

Baring stacking resistance items or lots of multiclassing, saves actually ARE almost always failed at high level D&D. It's not hard to optimize saves, but if you don't do so, then your odds on GOOD saves get worse every level, and your odds on BAD saves crash and burn quickly.

Someone posted the order's likely saves, Belkar is the only character known to have done ANYTHING to improve his odds (he and Elan are also the only ones benefiting from the multiclass boost to good saves). If Sunny is elite, then Sunny's save DC goes up +2 or so. If Sunny has a NON-EPIC ability booster item, then the DC goes up 3; epic adds more. If Sunny has ability focus (the BtB beholder doesn't, but the GM is explicitly allowed to rechoose feats) then some of the eye rays have an additional +2.

Basically, the order can all plausibly fail saves against a straight BtB beholder, and it's not at all unreasonable for Sunny to be at +7 or more to that making failed saves an overwhelming favorite and one out of bunches made (Durkon) a pretty expected rate.

A by-the-book beholder would be unlikely to accomplish this against commoners with no save bonuses or touch ac. Overall I think the likelihood would be something like 25%, which isn't implausibly small, but it would go down significantly if you gave the commoners any defensive bonuses. As unoptimized as they are, the Order still get some increases to their saves through leveling. Haley, Belkar, V, Elan, and Mr. Scruffy probably have an okay touch AC as well. Also, V, Hilgya and Durkon had their good saves targeted. Factor everything in and it would be incredibly unlikely for a standard beholder to pull this off.

Of course Sunny isn't a standard beholder, but given the competence they've shown so far I doubt they're much more optimized than the BtB beholder.

[TRH]

I think a big part of it is depiction. Save for half spells seem to be overcome a lot, because that keeps the main characters in the game while still depicting the effects of the spell. Save or die spells often inflict some damage on a successfuls save, so same principle. Save or suck/lose spells are often all or nothing, in which case we only get to see what they do on a failed save, so we don't get to see the powers of a caster or monster unless the Order keep flubbing saves like it's Baldur's Gate and they're all under a permanent Greater Malison effect.

[Fish]

...so we don't get to see the powers of a caster or monster unless the Order keep flubbing saves like it's Baldur's Gate and they're all under a permanent Greater Malison effect.

What gate?