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2021-08-15, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
It seems that our heroes, despite being high level PCs, can't seem to make a save to, well, save their lives.
If anything they need to be grateful that 1 hit kill attacks like horrid wilting or slay living were stopped in their tracks before being completed - because it seems like nobody almost ever manages to avoid the full effect of the attack.
Considering save-based attacks almost always hit fully, aren't they over powered? They were supposed to originally work only occasionally, and then have an extreme damage (for their spell level). Instead they hit all of the time, so instead of being a kind of a gamble where it's high risk (save made) - high reward (save failed) it's not a gamble at all, making them a much better choice then normal attacks.
This is especially true in the last comic - the multi-eyed monster can drop 7 (maybe even 8) hits in one round and all of them are successful - if they can do that why even bother with other tactics?Last edited by Justyz; 2021-08-15 at 07:27 AM.
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2021-08-15, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-08-15, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-08-15, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Czech Republic
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2021-08-15, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2021-08-15, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-08-15, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2021-08-15, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- USA
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2021-08-15, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Why are we talking about save-or-dies being op when d% random effects up the CR of an encounter by an order of magnitude?
This originally referred to Qarr summoning a Pit Fiend, but also on the same strip, a d% causes a double roll on the random encounter table! D%s are Vicious in Oots...Last edited by Riftwolf; 2021-08-15 at 01:38 PM.
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2021-08-15, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Sweden
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
They just sometimes roll poorly. A nat 1 is always a failed save no matter how good stats you have.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2021-08-16, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
A bit of geekery, but in straight D&D stats the Order doesn't have the best of saves. A lot of people seem to think the order has insanely high stats, or magic items, or buffs to saves, but in generally the Order (and most people in the comic) aren't highly optimized. Based on the Geekery thread, I figured these numbers out:
V has +10 Will
Durkon has +9 Fort
Minrah has +9 Fort
Mr. Scruffy has +9 Will
Elan has +8 Will
Haley has a +7 Will
Belkar has +6 Will
(For more details my original post)
The handbook Beholder has a DC of 17. While this means the Party (except Belkar) is at good odds to make saves, at the same time even the best one (V) has a 30% chance to fail.
So while unlucky, it doesn't seem too unlikely.Last edited by Yanisa; 2021-08-16 at 12:09 AM.
Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
Countdown to Belkar's death and my follow-up count gives us less then 3 weeks left. Poor Belkar.
Avatar by Akrim.elf
___
What effects allow a saving throw?
List of almost all 3.5 skills.
Old PF Initiative Build
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2021-08-16, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Those are fair approximations, but in most cases they should, perhaps, read "+[number] or more" (the value for V assumes that "moderate WIS" means "no bonus, no penalty"; meanwhile, the figures for Durkon and Minrah assume they had invested absolutely nothing into CON (which would be just plain weird even at the Order's level of optimization)). As for Elan, I'm pretty confident "+8 or (a lot) less" would be (a lot) more accurate, since judging by his actions, the comments of other characters and the fact I can't recall a single instance of his succesfully making a Will save, it is almost certain he has a WIS penalty (and probably not a small one at that).
The value for Belkar is likely spot on, though.
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2021-08-16, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2021
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Debating D&D rules back and forth is pointless. As Burlew has pointed out, this is a story crafted by him, not a D&D adventure. So if the plot requires that a blind, one-armed kobold armed with a sharpened pencil overwhelms the entire party, by golly, that's what's gonna happen.
Besides, the often total incompetence of the party has been an abiding and amusing theme of the entire series--to the point where it's surprising and pleasing when they don't butcher a situation. Their real improvement over the centuries (I think the series has taken that long; I'm not sure) has been that they now kinda sorta maybe in a way work together effectively and no one hates anyone else.
If OOTS were a space adventure, the heroes would be constantly crashing their spaceship into asteroids. If it were a western, the heroes would be accidentally shooting their own horses. If it were a war story, they'd get the maps wrong and invade and burn down a city in their own country. Enjoy it. Embrace it. What fun is a successful save, anyway?
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2021-08-16, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
If actual dice were being rolled then sure, it would be unlikely for all of the Order to miss their saves. Dice don't actually have anything to do with what happens in this comic though, do they?
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2021-08-16, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
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- Florida
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Having read OotS first, and 3.5e rules second, I can say my expectation o how saves work (from OotS) doesn't really match the 3.5e rules.
Not to say that's a bad thing; c'est n'est pas un jouie de gorgons et gendarmeries. In many ways, I'd say OootS rules seem better, but questions remain of actually implement the apparent principles in a real game system.
The principles as I see them are thus:
1) People typically have good or bad saves. It's very rare for people to fail if they have a good save (see ultimate cleric duel) and very rare for one to pass with a bad save. This is somewhat true in 3.5e rules, but the degree is much more extreme in OotS.
2) There's a tradeoff where more devastating spells have less of a chance to succeed. This is actually the opposite of the rules since the power of the effect goes up with DC (as both are tied to spell level). But in OotS save or die spells tend to hit much less than save or annoyance spells.
3) Roy has a good will save. Not 15% more than Belkar, but enough to have several times the chance of saving the Belkar does.
Pedantic nitpick: an order of magnitude is ten times, which would mean instead of a CR 13 encounter they got a CR 130 encounterThe thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-08-16, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-08-16, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
The encounter referenced is when Qarr the imp summoned a Pit Fiend. Imps are CR2 and Pit Fiends are CR20. So it was an order of magnitude increase in the difficulty of the encounter.
Incidentally it also violated the rules, since 3.5 imps don't have the ability to summon other devils.
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2021-08-16, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-08-16, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
(Speaking of that (and saves), the island devil was also definitely larger than large (and I'd say larger than huge, even though that's not officially possible), which means that it had 37+ HD and, accordingly, a Will save modifier of +29 at the very least, which means that unless V's INT score is higher than 40 and Durkon has a WIS score of 38+, the devil had to roll a 1 twice in a row for Crushing Despair and Bestow Curse to even affect it, and after those it would have still had to roll a 2 at best for Prismatic Spray to work, assuming V's INT score is no higher than 24.)
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2021-08-16, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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2021-08-16, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
3.5 rules as opposed to the comic:
Baring multiclassing or magic items helping your save, your good save is AT BEST keeping up with the DCs, your bad saves are hopeless.
As you level, the casters add to their casting stat (which only for clerics helps saves at all), and their spell level goes up 1 every 2 levels (adding one to DC), and if they care the caster takes spell focus and greater spell focus giving +2 to DC (the monsters need only ability focus for a +2 to DC with one special attack), while the target needs 3 feats to improve all three saves.
Monsters typically go up in HD faster than PCs go up in level, and monsters simply add HD/2 to most DCs (same rate of increase as a good save, except with more HD so they outpace the PCs). Add four HD to Sunny, that's +1 to CR, +2 to all DCs, have fun if Sunny has +2 to CR due to aberration HD for +4 more to save DCs.
Speaking of which, the caster chooses what spell to cast and thus what save to hit.
Baring stacking resistance items or lots of multiclassing, saves actually ARE almost always failed at high level D&D. It's not hard to optimize saves, but if you don't do so, then your odds on GOOD saves get worse every level, and your odds on BAD saves crash and burn quickly.
Someone posted the order's likely saves, Belkar is the only character known to have done ANYTHING to improve his odds (he and Elan are also the only ones benefiting from the multiclass boost to good saves). If Sunny is elite, then Sunny's save DC goes up +2 or so. If Sunny has a NON-EPIC ability booster item, then the DC goes up 3; epic adds more. If Sunny has ability focus (the BtB beholder doesn't, but the GM is explicitly allowed to rechoose feats) then some of the eye rays have an additional +2.
Basically, the order can all plausibly fail saves against a straight BtB beholder, and it's not at all unreasonable for Sunny to be at +7 or more to that making failed saves an overwhelming favorite and one out of bunches made (Durkon) a pretty expected rate.Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2021-08-16 at 12:31 PM.
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2021-08-16, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Plenty.
Also, It's L'Académie française with capital L and A but a lower case f. They would care.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-08-16 at 12:29 PM.
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-08-16, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2021-08-16, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-08-16, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2021-08-16, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-08-16, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2021-08-16, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
A by-the-book beholder would be unlikely to accomplish this against commoners with no save bonuses or touch ac. Overall I think the likelihood would be something like 25%, which isn't implausibly small, but it would go down significantly if you gave the commoners any defensive bonuses. As unoptimized as they are, the Order still get some increases to their saves through leveling. Haley, Belkar, V, Elan, and Mr. Scruffy probably have an okay touch AC as well. Also, V, Hilgya and Durkon had their good saves targeted. Factor everything in and it would be incredibly unlikely for a standard beholder to pull this off.
Of course Sunny isn't a standard beholder, but given the competence they've shown so far I doubt they're much more optimized than the BtB beholder.
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2021-08-16, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Are save-based attacks too overpowered in OOTs-verse?
I think a big part of it is depiction. Save for half spells seem to be overcome a lot, because that keeps the main characters in the game while still depicting the effects of the spell. Save or die spells often inflict some damage on a successfuls save, so same principle. Save or suck/lose spells are often all or nothing, in which case we only get to see what they do on a failed save, so we don't get to see the powers of a caster or monster unless the Order keep flubbing saves like it's Baldur's Gate and they're all under a permanent Greater Malison effect.
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2021-08-16, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.