New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Hey everyone, I'm currently running a zombie apocalypse type game using these rules for D20 modern conversion to the 5e rule set. I'm making a slew of new types of "infected" since fighting the run of the mill zombie over and over gets boring fast. However, I'm new to content building in 5e and am having trouble figuring out exactly how powerful these creatures might be in terms of CR. From what I can see there aren't any official hard and fast rules for it, so I figured I'd ask for advice here.

    Anyone have a link to a good place to steer my on the right path to determining CR? Also, what would you consider the following examples CR to be? I'm thinking CR 1 as it's a simple zombie chassis but with an ability that can increase its damage output. Let me know if you agree or not and why.

    Screamer
    Medium Undead, neutral evil

    Armor Class 8
    Hit Points 22 (3d8+9)
    Speed 30ft

    Str 13 (+1) Dex 6 (-2) Con 16 (+3) Int 3 (-4) Wis 6 (-2) Cha 5 (-3)

    Wisdom Save +0
    Damage Immunities Poison
    Condition Immunities Poisoned
    Senses Darkvision 60ft, Passive Perception 8
    Languages Understands what it spoke in life but cannot speak

    Undead Fortitude If damage reduces the screamer zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.

    Actions
    Slam
    Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
    Hit: 4 (1d6 + 1) bludgeoning damage.

    Scream (Recharge 5-6) The screamer lets out a terrible shriek affecting an area within a 20 foot radius from the screamer. Each living creature in the area must make a DC 12 Constitution saving throw, taking 1d6 Thunder damage and suffering the stunned condition for one round on a failed save, or half as much damage and not stunned on a successful one.
    Last edited by Tevin; 2021-08-16 at 11:30 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    5e d&d has rules for this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, but even then the edges between different CRs are fuzzy. Status effects in particular are a pain to quantify.

    If you're throwing only three or fewer zombies at the party, you could maybe justify CR 1/2, but if there's a bunch of them CR 1 seems more accurate to reflect party members getting regularly stunned.

    Although for playability I would maybe change Scream from "(Recharge 5-6)" to "(Recharge 6)," just to reduce the odds of stunlocking the party to death.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    5e d&d has rules for this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, but even then the edges between different CRs are fuzzy. Status effects in particular are a pain to quantify.

    If you're throwing only three or fewer zombies at the party, you could maybe justify CR 1/2, but if there's a bunch of them CR 1 seems more accurate to reflect party members getting regularly stunned.

    Although for playability I would maybe change Scream from "(Recharge 5-6)" to "(Recharge 6)," just to reduce the odds of stunlocking the party to death.
    This particular zombie was designed to be accompanied by other regular zombies. That's kind of the intention, one screamer and a slew of regular Zeds due to their rarity.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    An aoe, friendly-fire-free (if they're running with zombies), no immunity stun that deals damage, even with a low DC, is a hefty effect. And one that CR (in particular) is not well equipped to model/correct for.

    Anyone with +2 CON and no save proficiency has a 45% chance of losing their next turn and getting smacked by all the other zombies. In a 3 round fight, that means that there's the following breakdown:

    Rounds stunned | Chance
    0 | 16.6%
    1 | 40.1%
    2 | 33.4%
    3 | 9.1%

    So there's a 77% chance you will spend either 1/3 or 2/3 of the fight out of combat.
    That's brutal. And not so fun. Hard control (complete action denial) is rarely very fun at all for the players. You're basically saying "don't play a melee character" here.

    Personally, I'd downgrade it to something like a piece of what slow does (reduced movement, action OR bonus action) or add in a "if you succeed, you're immune for X time" clause.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2021-08-16 at 01:06 PM.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    An aoe, friendly-fire-free (if they're running with zombies), no immunity stun that deals damage, even with a low DC, is a hefty effect. And one that CR (in particular) is not well equipped to model/correct for.

    Anyone with +2 CON and no save proficiency has a 45% chance of losing their next turn and getting smacked by all the other zombies. In a 3 round fight, that means that there's the following breakdown:

    Rounds stunned | Chance
    0 | 16.6%
    1 | 40.1%
    2 | 33.4%
    3 | 9.1%

    So there's a 77% chance you will spend either 1/3 or 2/3 of the fight out of combat.
    That's brutal. And not so fun. Hard control (complete action denial) is rarely very fun at all for the players. You're basically saying "don't play a melee character" here.

    Personally, I'd downgrade it to something like a piece of what slow does (reduced movement, action OR bonus action) or add in a "if you succeed, you're immune for X time" clause.
    Hmm, appreciate the comments but I'm not convinced things are as dire as you believe. The ability is akin to a sound burst spell, only it has to be centered on the Screamer, it deals less damage, has a wider effect radius but has a lower DC and can be used seldomly. Chances are it will only go off once in a fight being on an AC 8 22 HP chassis and requiring a recharge roll. It is very much meant to keep characters away but I don't think that encouraging a tactic for an encounter type necessarily means it isn't worthwhile to play melee in the campaign. This is in a modern campaign as well, so one can be expecting there to be high base damage firearms available to them even if you're primarily a melee character.

    What CR would you give it in its current state?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevin View Post
    Hmm, appreciate the comments but I'm not convinced things are as dire as you believe. The ability is akin to a sound burst spell, only it has to be centered on the Screamer, it deals less damage, has a wider effect radius but has a lower DC and can be used seldomly. Chances are it will only go off once in a fight being on an AC 8 22 HP chassis and requiring a recharge roll. It is very much meant to keep characters away but I don't think that encouraging a tactic for an encounter type necessarily means it isn't worthwhile to play melee in the campaign. This is in a modern campaign as well, so one can be expecting there to be high base damage firearms available to them even if you're primarily a melee character.

    What CR would you give it in its current state?
    Sound burst isn't a spell in 5e.

    I think you're underestimating the durability of zombies--that undead fortitude means that they've got a decent chance to last longer than their other stats would suggest. Basically, unless this one gets sniped priority, it's likely to get off at least 2 shrieks. Which means there's a 70% chance that at least one person's going to spend 1 or 2 rounds stunned, which drastically increases the encounter difficulty (without really changing the monster's CR, due to how it's calculated).

    ---------

    By the books, it does an additional (averaged) 0.833 DPR [(2d6[0] - 1d6 - 1)/3] compared to a regular zombie, with the rest being equal. I'm away from my data right now, but I doubt that that would push it over any boundaries. So not counting the stun effect, no change.

    Throw in an ad-hoc +1-step CR for the stun effect (effectively being the same as granting advantage to all allies on half the party[1] plus a 50% damage reduction for one round), and you've got a CR 1/2 creature. But then I'd have to play-test and see how it really felt. Might be worth a +2.

    But as I said, it's not something you can really apply the standard CR calculations to and hope to get a decent result that really tells you much about how it will handle in a group. Because CR doesn't take into account that kind of group synergy. Alone, the thing gets smashed into oblivion by a level 1 party, no issues. With 3-4 other zombies and you could very well lose a person in a level 2 or 3 party. Get lucky on recharges or on placement (ie if it doesn't make itself noticeable until it's right near a cluster of PCs) or on saves and you could have a TPK.

    [0] assuming it goes off once and hits two people, who both fail their save.
    [1] by the assumptions of the book, 2 people get hit and fail. That means there's at least one round where half the party is out of commission and can be smashed by the rest and can't deal damage.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Sound burst isn't a spell in 5e.

    I think you're underestimating the durability of zombies--that undead fortitude means that they've got a decent chance to last longer than their other stats would suggest. Basically, unless this one gets sniped priority, it's likely to get off at least 2 shrieks. Which means there's a 70% chance that at least one person's going to spend 1 or 2 rounds stunned, which drastically increases the encounter difficulty (without really changing the monster's CR, due to how it's calculated).

    ---------

    By the books, it does an additional (averaged) 0.833 DPR [(2d6[0] - 1d6 - 1)/3] compared to a regular zombie, with the rest being equal. I'm away from my data right now, but I doubt that that would push it over any boundaries. So not counting the stun effect, no change.

    Throw in an ad-hoc +1-step CR for the stun effect (effectively being the same as granting advantage to all allies on half the party[1] plus a 50% damage reduction for one round), and you've got a CR 1/2 creature. But then I'd have to play-test and see how it really felt. Might be worth a +2.

    But as I said, it's not something you can really apply the standard CR calculations to and hope to get a decent result that really tells you much about how it will handle in a group. Because CR doesn't take into account that kind of group synergy. Alone, the thing gets smashed into oblivion by a level 1 party, no issues. With 3-4 other zombies and you could very well lose a person in a level 2 or 3 party. Get lucky on recharges or on placement (ie if it doesn't make itself noticeable until it's right near a cluster of PCs) or on saves and you could have a TPK.

    [0] assuming it goes off once and hits two people, who both fail their save.
    [1] by the assumptions of the book, 2 people get hit and fail. That means there's at least one round where half the party is out of commission and can be smashed by the rest and can't deal damage.
    Sound Burst is a 3rd party spell from Frog God Games.

    I understand the potential survivability of zombies, I am running a zombie apocalypse game after all, and being 4th level now we have encountered quite a few zombies. This one would obviously get snipe priority since it would be the only special zombie amongst a group of regular zombies and especially so after the group has encountered it before. That doesn't seem like a design flaw but a good party tactic. In a 3 round fight there's really not a good chance of the ability recharging. It'd be 1/9 or 11.11111% of going off twice. Then when it does go off the typical adventurer succeeds 45-50% of the time anyways. So in a given encounter, chances are, you'd have a 55% chance of costing the party 1 PC worth of actions (provided it hits half the party) and deals roughly 5 damage. After that there's an 11.1111% chance that it costs the party 1 more round of PC actions and deals another 5 damage, or it's effectively just another CR 1/4 zombie.

    What are you arguing, that any AoE stun effect is too powerful on a monster?
    Last edited by Tevin; 2021-08-17 at 12:50 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    It's way more swingy on a low cr monster designed to fight low level people.

    And the point is that cr itself doesn't measure that kind of ability well, so you have to take precautions based on play testing. Not that it shouldn't happen, but that any strict number based thing has a wide variance.

    And until it shrieks, how do they know it's special? If it's obviously different, that's one thing. But monsters don't come with name plates, and I'd imagine zombies are a pretty diverse bunch already.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    The variant infected will be easy to pick out as they will have obvious differences in their physiology. A screamer, for instance would look like this.


    If the party comes across different looking infected and doesn't treat them with caution until they understand their capabilities... they kinda deserve what they get. As a DM, I tend to reward smart play, and discourage dumb play in a very organic fashion.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2014

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    By the books, it does an additional (averaged) 0.833 DPR [(2d6[0] - 1d6 - 1)/3] compared to a regular zombie, with the rest being equal. I'm away from my data right now, but I doubt that that would push it over any boundaries. So not counting the stun effect, no change.
    I went ahead and ran the DMG calculations. Which as you point out, is just recalculating the numbers for a standard zombie, because the DMG has nothing to account for status effects. 0.833 damage more doesn't shift the Offensive Challenge.

    Defensive Challenge: 0

    Offensive Challenge: 1/4

    Overall Challenge: 1/8

    I didn't learn much from this, other than that the DMG disagrees with the MM on what a zombie's CR should be (MM says 1/4).




    If we want to make a number of assumptions, here's some back-of-the-napkin math that I'm going to put forward as a rough estimation of how much more effective the stun effect causes the Screamer to be.

    We're going to say the Scream gets to use Scream once and that on average, two of the party will fail. That likely draws combat out from the DMG-assumed average of 3 rounds to 4, because of the lack of offense from the party for the round where two characters are stunned. The zombies you plan to have accompany the Screamer also have advantage to hit the stunned characters, so we'll say two attacks hit that wouldn't have. We're also going to say the extra round of combat causes two more hits to occur. At four damage apiece, that's sixteen extra damage over four rounds, or about four extra damage a round.

    If we go with this math, the Screamer's Offensive Challenge bumps up to 1/2. Which leaves the CR basically unchanged from a MM zombie.



    To my own surprise, I'm going to say that the Scream won't appreciably change the CR of the creature. I'd be a little more worried if your party was 1st level, but I don't think it'll make a difference if they're 4th level.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    I might be outnumbered here, but I can't get behind a fractional CR for these guys. Game stats aside:
    1) an AoE stun bomb that fills a dungeon room is brutal, and
    2) no way will the PCs find just a single screamer without a bunch of its standard shambler friends, who are conveniently immune to the stun bomb. Sorry but I've seen way too many zombie movies. One of those things screams, its friends come running. Er, walking. Er...they will get there eventually, is the general idea.

    So my concern is not their numbers, but the maximum potential in their element. So I'm suggesting CR 1, even though one-on-party a level 1 party would crush it, because I don't see that ever coming up.

    Have you considered giving them a vulnerability? A first-level party turns the corner and bumps into one, I'm not sure they can all unload on it fast enough to keep it from screaming with just standard damage numbers, so even if they're smart and "everyone focus" they're a significant threat. How about "takes double damage from piercing weapons when Scream is charged" aka "pop the balloon"? Or "cannot Scream while on fire"?

    P.S. I'd feel a lot better about a lower CR if I knew for a fact the entire campaign was outdoors, where a 20ft radius stun bomb could be "denoated" at long range.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I might be outnumbered here, but I can't get behind a fractional CR for these guys. Game stats aside:
    1) an AoE stun bomb that fills a dungeon room is brutal, and
    2) no way will the PCs find just a single screamer without a bunch of its standard shambler friends, who are conveniently immune to the stun bomb. Sorry but I've seen way too many zombie movies. One of those things screams, its friends come running. Er, walking. Er...they will get there eventually, is the general idea.

    So my concern is not their numbers, but the maximum potential in their element. So I'm suggesting CR 1, even though one-on-party a level 1 party would crush it, because I don't see that ever coming up.

    Have you considered giving them a vulnerability? A first-level party turns the corner and bumps into one, I'm not sure they can all unload on it fast enough to keep it from screaming with just standard damage numbers, so even if they're smart and "everyone focus" they're a significant threat. How about "takes double damage from piercing weapons when Scream is charged" aka "pop the balloon"? Or "cannot Scream while on fire"?

    P.S. I'd feel a lot better about a lower CR if I knew for a fact the entire campaign was outdoors, where a 20ft radius stun bomb could be "denoated" at long range.
    If it eases any concerns it's a modern campaign so each PC is carrying a 2d6+dex or 2d8+dex ranged weapon with them at all times.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    A little bit of hiatus but I'm back with another custom zombie for 5e that I need help determining CR for. I think it's around CR 3, or maybe 4, but I'm looking for your opinions on what you think and why.


    Feral
    Medium Undead, neutral evil

    Armor Class 15 (natural armor)
    Hit Points 52 (7d8+21)
    Speed 40ft

    Str 18 (+4) Dex 16 (+3) Con 16 (+3) Int 3 (-4) Wis 6 (-2) Cha 5 (-3)

    Wisdom Save +1
    Damage Immunities Poison
    Condition Immunities Poisoned
    Senses Darkvision 60ft, Passive Perception 8
    Languages Understands what it spoke in life but cannot speak

    Actions
    Multiattack: The Feral makes three attacks: two with its claws and one with its bite.
    Claws Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
    Hit: 7 (1d6+4) slashing damage
    Bite Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5ft, one target.
    Hit: 8 (1d8+4) piercing damage

    Feral Leap: As a bonus action, the Feral can jump up to 20 feet. If the Feral lands adjacent to an enemy at the end of this jump he may immediately make a Strength (Athletics) check to grapple that enemy.

    Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the feral zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.
    Last edited by Tevin; 2021-09-02 at 03:21 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    I get CR 3 for the new monster, although It might be better to buff its defenses till its CR 4: it deals a lot more damage than it can take, and those sorts of monsters tend to be pretty swingy. If you roll high its likely to deal more damage than your expected based on total CR and if you roll low the first round the monster is likely to die before it can get another turn. Grapple is pretty weak, even as a bonus action, so at most it gives +1 to effective AC (although by RAW even that arguably applies to restraining a target). Wisdom should be +0, given you're adding a +2 proficiency bonus. Or make the Feral more alert than the regular zombie with an 8 or 9 wisdom score, to justify the +1 you currently have listed.

    Also, could you move the images inside spoiler boxes? They're a bit of a hassle to scroll past.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The middle of the earth.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I get CR 3 for the new monster, although It might be better to buff its defenses till its CR 4: it deals a lot more damage than it can take, and those sorts of monsters tend to be pretty swingy. If you roll high its likely to deal more damage than your expected based on total CR and if you roll low the first round the monster is likely to die before it can get another turn. Grapple is pretty weak, even as a bonus action, so at most it gives +1 to effective AC (although by RAW even that arguably applies to restraining a target). Wisdom should be +0, given you're adding a +2 proficiency bonus. Or make the Feral more alert than the regular zombie with an 8 or 9 wisdom score, to justify the +1 you currently have listed.

    Also, could you move the images inside spoiler boxes? They're a bit of a hassle to scroll past.
    Proficiency should be +3 at 7 HD, no? That's how its attacks and saves are calculated currently.

    How much of a boost to AC or HP would you suggest to boost it to CR 4?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevin View Post
    Proficiency should be +3 at 7 HD, no? That's how its attacks and saves are calculated currently.

    How much of a boost to AC or HP would you suggest to boost it to CR 4?
    5e uses CR to calculate proficiency bonus, and the number of hit dice is mostly irrelevant. See page 274 for the table listing what bonus a monster has at each total CR.

    And using the DMG figures, a total of hit points to 82 (11d8+33) hit points would bring it to CR 4. That's about a 60% boost to how sturdy the monster is, and leaves is average damage per round untouched. Technically the RAW calculations work out that you could give it up to 105 (14d8+42) hit points and it would stay CR 4.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Determining New Zombie CR's for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevin View Post
    If it eases any concerns it's a modern campaign so each PC is carrying a 2d6+dex or 2d8+dex ranged weapon with them at all times.
    Sorry for the late reply.

    To me, that reduces the problem dramatically. A long-range weapon isn't the issue when you're in a 20x20 room with these guys, and in my opinion every monster should be "graded" on its highest potential, but you basically said you're never doing to do that anyhow so it's no longer a concern.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •