A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 80
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    I had a half-finished exhibition build that I couldn't get to coalesce. I was trying to use great rift skyguard with Hurling Charge, Shi'quos School, and Tormtor School, but Hurling Charge annoyingly really doesn't play nice with Tormtor School, so I kind of lost interest in the build. (Then there's also the fact that GRS assumes that you have a hippogriff but doesn't, like, actually give you one? So I was using a soulmeld to get flight and it just got kind of weird.)

    I was really hoping to see someone relying on updraft, which is a super weird spell that I still kind of love. It's just so hard to actually use it for anything significant, and it's also annoying that it's not on any domain lists...
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 35. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post

    ***Starts sweating profusely***
    Tell me about it

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    As long as you didn't submit REDACTED, you've got nothing to worry about.
    Oh good, for a moment there I was nervous! ***Starts sweating even harder***

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    I was messing around with swiftwing shifter, but in the end it was mostly just for the sake of getting flight in an unusual way, and I don't really like doing that sort of thing.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Well. I'll try to judge.
    Please bear with me. It's my first judging time and English isn't my mother tongue.

    Judging criteria.

    Originality. Starting from 3. Highly subjective category. Are your classes, feats, combos, and tricks obvious and expected? Did I see something similar before? Or were you able to surprise me?

    Power. Starting from 0. Pun-pun is 10. Before you built your build it was able to do nothing. With every level, every feat, ability and spell it was starting to do more. I'll be evaluating not only raw power, but utility, survivability, flexibility, and other parameters.

    Elegance. Starting from 5. Till you place the first brick in your build there were zero mistakes. Guaranteed. Each mistake which I can find will take away some part of this five.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (latter UotSI). Starting from 0, for obvious reasons. How well you use SI? Do it something for your build or you took it just because you need? What would happen if it'll be removed?
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-09-16 at 04:51 PM.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Good luck with your judgement, Loky! Thanks for your help.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Great White North

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Oh, that's a good idea.

    Alright, here’s what I’ll be using to judge this competition:

    I'll be starting each category off with 3 points, and deducting or adding from there, to try and establish some sort of baseline.
    • Originality: If you can get me to tilt my head and give the screen a 'huh', you can count on a high score here. Low scores will come from plucking low-hanging fruit and well known optimization tricks.
    • Power: Are you competent? Everyone appears to have gone for the same type of build, so comparing to hit/damage and modifiers will make all of the difference. I assume that the build has zero magical items when I calculate this category, though I’ll assume you have mundane versions of your required/preferred weapon/armor.
    • Elegance: This is what it sounds like. If your class overview takes up half the screen, expect hits. If your build is clean and well thought out, you're golden. Expect hits taken for Flaws (and Traits), illegal picks and questionable rules abuses. Holding up at all levels of play is also counted here; if you’re only viable after 5 Epic feats, you’ll be hit here.
    • Use of the Secret Ingredient: Do you use flight effectively? Do you get it in a reasonable amount of time? Is flight an essential part of this build, or could it be replicated without it?

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Post Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Work is done.

    Spoiler: Bash Jordon (10)
    Show

    Spoiler: Originality (3.75)
    Show
    Okey. Sugliin (+0.75). This is really unexpected. As well as sohei (+0.5). Raptoran on the other hand is an obvious way to get fly (-0.5). Use of Dive charge is anticipated tactics for flyer (-0.25). And Greater Flyby Attack, too (-0.25).
    I didn't expect a monk (+0.25). Sun School + blink shirt is well known (-0.25), but unexpected, too (+0.25). Vault is interesting (+0.25). Pushback and Evasive reflexes are interesting, too, but you didn't use it at all (+0).


    Spoiler: Power (3.5)
    Show
    You can do a significant amount of damage (you can't but this is for Elegance) (+1). And you can do it again and again (+0.25). But your att bonus is below average, only +7-+8 (without PA) if you don’t charge. Three more if you do. If you use FoB - +6. Not impressive (+0.25).
    Your mobility thanks to flying is good (+0.25), but your flying is restricted by 4 rounds, 2 if you won't become fatigued. Yes, you can fly, then glide, then again fly and again glide, but this doesn't work well while in combat. This means you most likely can use your main fight options (I talk about Dive Charge and Greater Flyby Attack) only once (one of them!) in a single fight (+0.25). Anyway, even it isn't much, you do it self (+0.25).
    Blink shirt gives you some tactical mobility and advantage (+0.25).
    Your AC is about 14-15 (maybe 17, if you use armor). This isn't very good for melee fighter (+0.25).
    45 HP is average (+0.25).
    Your skills... aren't impressive. You can jump and not jump (+0).
    Your saves are good enough (+0.5).


    Spoiler: Elegance (1)
    Show
    Oh my...
    You can't combine sugliin with Decisive strike (-0.5).
    You can't combine sugliin with Sun school (-0.5).
    You can't combine sugliin with sohei's flurry of blows (-0.5).
    You can't combine sugliin with Greater flyby attack (-0.5).

    You can't combine sugliin with Heavy (-0.5).
    Only weapons made entirely or largely of metal are affected; other weapons (such as spears) are not.
    You can't combine Battle jump with Decisive strike (-0.5).
    You can't combine Battle jump with Sudden leap (-0.5).

    Sudden Leap has a prerequisite - One Tiger Claw maneuver (-0.5).
    Sun School has a prerequisite - Flurry of blows ability. No, Sohei has no flurry of blows ability, he has Ki Frenzy (-0.25).
    Polefighter has a prerequisite - Flurry of blows class feature. Plus, Sohei has no restrictions to use his flurry only with monk's weapons (-0.5).
    Battle jump is a regional feat. You can take it only at 1st level, even if you meet requirement (-0.5).

    Do 4d8+str Damage with a melee attack
    Blink shirt+ sun school for 4d8+Str
    +1.5*Str
    At level 1 you’re doing 4d8+3. Those basement rats gonna die.
    4d8+4
    and several more times. Sugliin is a two-handed weapon.
    (-0.25)

    I don't understand for what reason you take Pushback (-0).

    5th level skills in the table have some problems (-0.25).

    Your text formatting is bad. It was hard for me to read your entry (-0.25).

    You didn’t specify the source for Raptoran and Raptoran Fighter (-0.25).

    You didn't use updated version of Sohei from Dr#318 (-0.25).

    Dive charge for 8d8+2x Str
    Dive attack and Diving charge are different things (-0).



    Spoiler: UotSI (1.75)
    Show
    You fly (+1). But only starting from 5th level (+0.25). And very limited time (+0.25). Two of your main fighting options work only with fly (+0.5). But out of these options you can't fight while flying. You have average maneuverability and should move at least Half your flying speed. And you can't do this and attack with sugliin or use decisive strike or FoB in the same round (+0). And you can't fly after only 5 round-frenzy (+0). Plus, you have different more powerful attack options, and if remove fly from your build, it wouldn't be a big deal, it'll even may become better without fly (-0.25).


    Spoiler: Graazt Du’kal (12.75)
    Show

    Spoiler: Originality (3.25)
    Show
    Swift Hunter is expected combo everywhere (-0.25).
    Improved Skirmish and Dragonfire Strike are almost always going with SH, but I won't penalize you for them (-0).
    Silverbrow Human is expected, too, but not so much in this round (-0).
    Starspawn is wow! I didn't even know about it (+1).
    About Celestial Slayer ACF, too. This isn't a significant part of your build, however (+0.25).
    Arcane Hunter ACF on the other hand is so overused... (-0.5)
    Great Flyby Attack is expected (-0.25), as well as your reach combo (-0.25), but how you combined them... This impressed me (+0.25).
    Darkstalker is well known (-0.25), but I didn't expect it here (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Power (4.5)
    Show
    You are good! 3 (Why 3? But this is for elegance.) attacks (+0.5) over a large area (+0.5) with a good amount of damage (+0.5). And you can do it all day with short rests (+0.25). But only +6 attack bonus… Yes, up to +12 against human wizards, but… And I didn’t talk about Expertise. Too low (+0).
    Your mobility thanks to flying is good (+0.25), but your flying is restricted by 4 rounds. You do it yourself, however (+0.25).
    And you are good at scouting, too. Darkstalker with 9+ in stealth skills. Yes, you can be a surprise for the enemy (+0.5). It doesn't synergize with your offensive side, but still useful, if you want to escape from the battle.
    Your other skills. There aren't any surprises, but you are good at what you do (+0.25).
    Suboptimal choice your second Favored Enemy doesn't give you any points (+0).
    Double Travel Devotion gives you Mobility both for offense and retreat (+0.5).
    Your AC is about 13+light armor+possibly Expertise. This isn't very good for melee fighter (+0.25), but... with your tactics you aren't so melee (+0.25).
    About 48 hp. Average (+0.25).
    Your saves are not bad except for Will - +0 is a weak spot (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Elegance (1)
    Show
    Well, well, well. Flaws (-1). Two Flaws (-1). And you even didn't select them (-0.25). Seriously, what flaws did you take? And you didn't indicate in the table that Darkstalker is for flaw, too. I won't penalize it, because you mentioned this in Write-up, but it was close. Plus, it looks like, you yourself didn't know which feat you take through second flaw: Inhuman Reach or Darkstalker. It was close, too.
    You didn't specify the source for Silverbrow Human and Scout (-0.25). And Ranger, but he is from PHB, I know (-0).

    Your reach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    we have a Fly speed of 40ft and a reach of 15ft with a longspear
    Quote Originally Posted by LoM, p. 180, Inhuman Reach feat
    As described on page 112 of the Player’s Handbook, a reach weapon doubles your normal reach; for example, if you have this feat and you wield a longspear, you can attack targets 15 or 20 feet away.
    Very strange mistake (-0.25).

    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    Extended reach is qualified for with our Flaw Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs)
    First, Aberration Blood isn't flaw (-0).
    Second, are you qualified or are not... This is a gray zone. Yes, there are suitable examples in Inhuman Reach (not in Aberration Blood), but you wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    and leathery membranes connected gaunt flanks to oddly jointed arms
    in your Background. Oddly jointed. While in Extended reach:
    Your body or a part of your body with which you can deliver a melee attack is boneless and flexible, allowing you...
    so, you didn't qualify for Extended reach. But because it is disputable I won't give you a big penalty (-0.25).

    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    After picking up Born Flyer to qualify for Air Heritage
    And again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Born Flyer
    If you do not have a natural fly speed, this feat allows you to take feats that have a natural fly speed as a prerequisite.
    Air Heritage has no any prerequisites, mention of "a fly speed as a racial ability" is a part of benefit. Yes, by RAI they should work together, but by RAW - no (-0.25).

    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    Great Flyby Attack is what we’ve been waiting for our entire build. Now rather than making a single attack a round while triggering Skirmish damage, we can hit up to Dex mod (3) people along a straight line of our flight.
    Why 3? As I can see your Dexterity is 14 (-0.5).

    What ability did you up on 4 level (-0.25)?

    The final level of Scout nets us Combat Expertise as the best of a bunch of lackluster options, and it provides a prereq for much later.
    I don't see anything with Combat Expertise in prerequisite (-0). Am I blind for something?


    Spoiler: UotSI (4)
    Show
    You fly (+1). And you do it on the very first level (+1)! But very limited time (+0.25). But you can fly, rest 1 round, and fly again. All day long (+0.25). Your fighting tactics are built around fly (+1). If fly would be removed... Well you have big reach, good speed, skirmish, even TWF with Travel Devotion, which would allow you one or two times cause similar amount of damage, but this all aren't same thing (+0.5).



    Spoiler: Hildegard (14.5)
    Show

    Spoiler: Originality (3.75)
    Show
    The System? Seriously? I won't penalize it of course, but I don't like The Gamer fanfics very very much!
    Warlock. Isn't an obvious choice (+0.5). Especially Warlock-5, rather than Warlock-6 with Fell Flight (+0.5). Especially Warlock with Hideous Blow (+0.5). And I didn't expect somebody on horseback (+0.5).
    Other hand, DMM (Persistent) (-0.5). Mortalbane warlock (-0.25). Martial Weapon Proficiency via War domain (-0.25). Rhino’s Rush for Mounted charge (-0.25). Spontaneous Domain (-0.25). I saw all of this. But Wrath Domain is new for me (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Power (4.25)
    Show
    Good, good damage (+1). And most of it works full day (+0.25). Not so good attack bonus, only +9 (+0.5). Plus, Dragonel's attacks, not so great, but something (+0.25).
    Your mobility is good (+0.25), but largely via your stead.
    You use your spells only to do good charge, so no points (+0). Yes, after DMM you have two more slots, but you didn't say what you do with it.
    Your Invocations other than Hideous Blow are useful (+0.5).
    Even if I take away your Lance you still can shoot Eldritch Blast for 5d6 damage. This's something (+0.25).
    Your skills. Concentration, Ride, UMD. Concentration is a necessity (+0). Ride gives your Dragonel up to +13 AC (+3 average) against one attack in a round. Good (+0.25). Warlock's 10+ UMD is amazing. All wands are yours now (+0.5)! You had Beguiling Influence part of your way, but trade it (+0).
    Your AC and hp. AC is 10+light armor-2 from charge and… Is this all? HP is about 37, plus DR 1… For somebody who hits enemies with a stick this is bad (+0). Good thing is that you have another 45 hp with AC 16 (or more) under the saddle (+0.25).
    Your saves. Not good. Especially your Reflex (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Elegance (3)
    Show
    We have a big, big problem here. And some problems that are not so big, but let go step by step.
    Wrath Domain. First, you didn't specify the source, but this will be later.
    I found it in the Book of Exalted Deeds. That’s what I thought at first. But I was wrong. Wrath from BoED isn't your Wrath. It has Doom as a first level spell, not Rhino’s Rush. Wrath with Rhino’s Rush is from Dragon #323. This violation doesn't kill your build entirely, but this is a serious mistake (-2.5).


    Cleric of an Ideal with the War domain? No, no, no. I don't think this is elegant. Yes, you suggest using Flaw instead, but Flaws are inelegant, too (-0.5).

    You can't replace Aereni Focus with Flyby Attack via Rite of Rebirth.
    Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.
    Special: Ordinarily, only a 1st-level character can select certain feats requiring the dragonblood subtype (see Chapter 6). However, upon becoming a dragonborn, you can elect to replace one (and only one) of your existing feats with one of these feats.
    Both options are missed (-0.25).

    And anyway, you can't use Flyby Attack and Dive attack in the same round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildegard
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Attack, SRD
    When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dive, Movement, SRD
    A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge
    Putting these together we can unequivocally use our Move Action to have the Dragonel Dive to count as Charging
    As I see here Dive and Dive attack are different things. Dive attack isn't move action, it is full-round. Dive in Flyby Attack is most likely just about direction. But I understand, this is debatable (-0.25).

    Aereni Focus for Wood Elf. Yes, you can do it by RAW, but... I even didn't find Wood Elf in Eberron books. Maybe I did my search wrong? (-0.25)

    Baleful Utterance. Even if we leave behind brackets the fact that speaking Dark Speech should kill anybody without feat. Ok, it isn't a full word, it is "only" syllable. But you are Good! And use Dark Speech? Bahamut wouldn't approve (-0.25).

    Why do you mention Player’s Guide to Faerun as a source for Persistent Spell? Complete Arcane is the latest book with this feat (-0).

    You didn't specify source for Wood Elf, Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF, and Wrath Domain (-0.25).

    And you have multiclass XP penalty (-0.25).


    Spoiler: UotSI (3.5)
    Show
    You fly (+1). But only starting from 6th level (Why didn't you pass the Rite of Rebirth earlier?) (+0.25). But you do it in two ways (+0.25). And with one you can do it all day (+0.75). Your fighting tactics are built around fly (+1). If I take your fly out, well, you'll still be able to do Spirited Charge with the Lance, but damage will be smaller in one third (+0.25).



    Spoiler: Mooncasai Munkedu (18)
    Show

    Spoiler: Originality (4.5)
    Show
    Monkey? Tell me more (+0.75)! But anthropomorphic animals are slightly overused (-0.5).
    Wild Shape Ranger to Nature's Warrior. For me it isn't expected. Ok, Wild Shape I expected (-0.25), but not ranger (+0.5). Nature's Warrior and his Wings of the Hurricane is a good find (+0.25).
    Apprentice Spellcaster - boring. Apprentice Spellcaster (Ranger)... Erm... What? (+0.75)
    Spiritual Connection. I didn't see use of it until now (+0.25).
    Favored environment I didn't see in use until now, too (+0.25).
    Shooting Star and Sword of the Arcane Order are cool, cool substitution levels and feat. Very underappreciated. Glad to see them (+0.5).
    Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories - expected (-0.25).
    Diving Charge is an obvious choice, too (-0.5).

    Sphinx claws + Open hands chakra. I saw it so many times... I'm feeling old (-0.5).
    Expeditious Dodge on the other hand I saw rarely (+0.25).

    Improved flyby attack is of course obvious, but this obviousness has reason (-0.25). And only you take it, maybe the price is so hard to pay (+0.25)?

    Darkstalker is well known (-0.25), but I didn't expect it here (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Power (4.75)
    Show
    Okey. 32 damage (+0.5). 72 damage starting from Epic-2 (+0.25). And you can perform it near all day long (+0.25). Attack bonuses are very good (+0.75).
    Your mobility is perfect (+0.5)! Hours or all day, and you do it yourself (+0.25).
    You have two spell slots with CL4, not so many, but they are (+0.25). And from Epic-3 you have access to the wizard's spell list, good, flexible (+0.25). And Speak with Animal/Plant SLA, may be useful (+0.25).
    Your skills. Good amount of knowledges, good stealth and perception (and +8 Dire Hawk's spot), spellcraft, and survival with Track. Plus two Favored Enviroments. And Darkstalker (+0.5).

    AC 21 without any buffs. 25 for hours. 29 for rounds. 27 when charging. Wow (+0.5)! And you have 55 hp, not "wow", but good (+0.25).

    Your saves. Only +2 Will, other good, but this is weak (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Elegance (3.75)
    Show
    Two skill points from Apprentice Spellcaster. You should have to spend them on Associated Skills - Knowledge (any one), Use Magic Device. You spent one on Knowledge (arcana) and another on... one of your regular skills, not on associated (-0.5).

    Your skills in the table. You mention only those that were upping in each level. This is weird and doesn't make my work easier (-0.25).

    About Flyby Attack and Dive attack. As I wrote above for Hildegard, I don't think they work together.
    But the wording is bad and I don't give you a big penalty (-0.25).

    I didn't see source for Dire Hawk, it is important part of your entry and it is not from MM1 (-0.25).


    Spoiler: UotSI (5)
    Show
    You definitely fly (+1). All day or big part of it (+0.75). With perfect maneuverability (+0.75) and speed of 110 ft (+0.5). But only starting from 5th level (+0.25).
    Your fighting tactics are built around fly (+1). If I take your fly out, hm, you can shoot from a bow or become a wolf. Anyway it will be a real blow for you (+0.75).



    Spoiler: Pippin (18.5)
    Show

    Spoiler: Originality (4.75)
    Show
    Ardent is an obscure class for me (+0.5). Horizon Walker is very unexpected (+0.75) and how desert mastery works with Raptoran's fly... Amazing catch (+0.5). Skill Focus? Really? And with good reason (+0.5)! Travel Devotion is a frequent flyer in optimization challenges (-0.5).
    Raptoran is expected (-0.5). Diving Charge is expected (-0.5). Foot spikes are suddenly not (+0.25).
    Wing Expert is an interesting finding (+0.5). Meldshaping can't surprise me (-0.25), but Speed of Thought can (+0.25). Aerial Reflexes surprises me, too (+0.25).


    Spoiler: Power (4.75)
    Show
    Good damage (and I'd double Diving Charge damage, too) (+0.75), and good attack bonuses (+0.75). You are slightly limited by the finite number of Travel Devotion uses, but three fights in a day still is not so few (+0.25).
    Your mobility is perfect (+0.5)! Fly, then glide, and again fly all day (+0.5), without steed (+0.25).
    Spells and powers. Isn't so much, but helpful (+0.25).
    Wing Fan together with Desert mastery is an option. With it you can not only "charge'em again" (+0.25).
    Skills. Not so much, but there’s enough to talk about (+0.25).
    Your AC. 17 isn't low, but you are almost always charging which means AC 13. Yes, you try to be outside melee and avoid AoO, plus can temporarily up your AC to 21, but it is still not good in general (+0.25).
    HP. Okay, 47 is average (+0.25).

    Saves. You are very careful with them and cover weak spots (+0.5).


    Spoiler: Elegance (4)
    Show
    Speed of Thought without any ranks in Concentration? Isn't good. Yes, you can take it and use it, but I was nasty surprised when I noticed this (-0.25).

    You didn't mention the source for Duthila and made a mistake in the name (-0.5). It was big luck to find her.

    And you have multiclass XP penalty (-0.25).


    Spoiler: UotSI (5)
    Show
    You fly (+1). But only starting from 5th level (+0.25). But from 6th level you do it all day (+0.75). With good maneuverability (+0.5) and speed of 95 ft (+0.5). Your fighting tactics are built around fly (+1). If I take your fly out... Uh! You'll become helpless as a child! Okay, okay, you'll still be able to fight with... some weapon and do some damage, but it'll be dramatically worse (+1). Fly is all for you!



    It was very interest new experience!
    My thanks to all participants for giving me this opportunity.

    I'm ready for disputes.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-10-01 at 05:23 PM.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    My thanks to all participants for giving me this opportunity.
    Thanks for giving us your judgements!

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Update: currently working on judgements. Boy, you guys did some stuff. Should be a couple of days, it's the Tishrei holiday season and I have a lot of family gatherings to attend.

    Good job already finishing your judgement, Loky! I'm looking forward to reading it once I publish mine.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Little bit of RAW dispute from Mooncasai Munkedu:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncasai
    Hello Loki1109, thank you for judging!

    to quote the contested point : "Two skill points from Apprentice Spellcaster. You should have to spend them on Associated Skills - Knowledge (any one), Use Magic Device. You spent one on Knowledge (arcana) and another on... one of your regular skills, not on associated (-0.5)."

    Both extra skill points are put on knowledge arcana, nothing on the feat says that I have to put the extra ranks on two different skills. Sure, that seems to be implied, but the wording of that paragraph is "a character immediately gains two new class skills and two bonus skill points to spend on these class skills." , not "a character immediately gains two new class skills and one bonus skill point on each of them" or something like that

    little extra : if you feel they must be split, nominally spellcraft is on the mentor side of associated skills
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 35. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Hello Mooncasai,
    Both extra skill points are put on knowledge arcana, nothing on the feat says that I have to put the extra ranks on two different skills
    Of course you can put both extra skill points on one new skill. But, you didn't. I'm looking at your table and what do I see?

    knowledge(arcana) +1
    And sum of skill points on the first level is 34, which more than you class-granted skill points by 2.

    Score has not changed.

    Zaq, have we limit for dispute's rounds? I'm ready to continue talking as much as needs.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-09-19 at 02:24 PM.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Hey Zaq,

    When are we gonna get LA+1 options?

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Hey Zaq,

    When are we gonna get LA+1 options?
    Sounds like a potential SI to me.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    LA races actually sounds like a great round.

    I believe I'll be submitting full judgement within 48 hours, by the way.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    LA +1, huh? Hmm. That could be fun. If everyone is LA'd, then no one is. That might be fun for a future ingredient.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 35. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    LA +1, huh? Hmm. That could be fun. If everyone is LA'd, then no one is. That might be fun for a future ingredient.
    Maybe LA at least +3 ? If do, do much!
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Maybe LA at least +3 ? If do, do much!
    La 1, 2, and 3, could all be separate contests

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    4, 5, 6... Stop!
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-09-25 at 01:48 PM.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Sorry for the delay, guys. Been busy.

    I'm basically finished, just need to finish writing out two categories on one entry and making sure there are no errors. I'll do that as soon as I can.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Whoof! My God, guys, sorry for the delays. Busy times.

    This round had a lot of entries which scored very low in elegance. I believe this is the lowest average elegance score I ever gave, by a long shot. Don't get me wrong – I will always prefer rounds with people going for something unique and weird out of the box, even if they end up failing spectacularly. I really did like this round. However, I do think y'all need to start paying more attention to rules issues and to polish.

    Well done, everyone, and thank you for participating!

    Spoiler: Bash Jordon:
    Show
    Originality:

    You didn't have any fluff, which is something I penalize in this category. You don't have to have good fluff, long fluff, etcetera – but I need to see at least a hint of an actual character, or a story. I realize that to many people, this is solely a tinkering competition, but I feel that fluff is still a part of a complete submission – even if it is a small one.

    Your flight method is a most expected one – I don't blame you, but you didn't exactly blow my mind with it. You also go for a couple of the usual suspects as far as feats go.

    However, sohei and monk are pretty unexpected, and your general approach is cool and unique. It feels well thought out and reasoned. The logic of flight+reach is as old as D&D, and you put a cool spin on it using the sugliin. More on your central tactics later.

    Overall, this entry benefits from a neat and relatively creative central gimmick – but is hampered by a few obvious choices and a lack of fluff. Well done, though.

    Score: 3.6 points.


    Power:

    You do pretty decent damage, and you have great versatility of options depending on number of targets and need for movement. Some of your feats seem chosen almost at random, which means a few of your epic feats have a hard time making a real impact, as far as I can tell.

    This connects to my main issue: as a dedicated damage dealer, you have a hard time justifying many of your choices. Monkey grip, for example, is still only 0.5 points of damage better than power attack, and far less versatile. Punching up one more size category would be a gamechanger for you, but you stop just before the increase giving you two more dice. I like what you're doing, but it honestly seems less effective than a plain old thf power attacker. Your schtick is cool, but it's unclear to me what advantages it gives you in the end over a more traditional build. I'm giving you credit for your versatility of combat options here, but that could be achieved without less effort, I think.

    You mention flurrying enough times for me to believe that you're walking around unarmored. This makes raptoran fighter kind of a waste and lowers your AC to 14 – not terrible per se, but not great. This is just one case of you being harmed by your madness – similar cases are being limited to two creatures in a greater flyby and only being able to fly for two rounds without trouble.

    Overall, while not bad, this is no more than decent in the power department.

    Score: 3.4 points.


    Elegance:

    Let's start out with the good stuff:

    I like you using monk and sohei to get more punch out of your sugliin. I like the way you qualified for pole fighter through Ki Frenzy, allowing you to expand your options with decisive strike. That was clever. You have a clear focus, and your build is mostly about your main schtick. I like that.

    You clearly and conveniently list your sources (with the exception of raptoran fighter, which I found in RoTW), and despite having a messy table, you don't suffer from multiclass penalties.

    As for the bad stuff… Let's start with presentation. I dislike you not having any clear snapshots or build explanations. Your math in the beginning, presenting the fundamental tactical options of your build, is helpful – but far from enough. I don't get many of your feat choices (pushback? Evasive reflexes? Why?), and the order they come in is confusing. Why do you have pushback, and did you really need it more than battle jump? Where do you see yourself using the sun school-blink shirt combo, do you really think it's worth three of your feats, and why did I have to figure out what you were doing on my own?
    This all seems like you were short on time for the build. I can appreciate that, but I'd really like a more robust tactical breakdown next time. This is far too skeletal.

    This issue, however, is dwarfed by the issue of failing to qualify for feats. Extra rage I would let slide in my games, and I'm not penalizing you as harshly for it – but you don't qualify. Nothing in Ki Frenzy says it counts as rage for prerequisites, or that it can benefit from effects affecting rage. This feels like you were assuming your DM / Judges would just go with the flow on this, which isn’t how I do things. If you have a source for Ki Frenzy counting as rage, feel free to dispute – though we may still not see eye to eye on this.

    Another FTQ is your martial study. You can't take sudden leap as a martial study, as you do not know another tiger claw maneuver, which is a prerequisite for sudden leap. There's no easy way for you to fix this – you need to either lose a feat or change the build.

    Finally, if I'm not mistaken, regional feats (such as battle jump) have to be taken at first level. Additionally, unapproachable east says that a character cannot take a regional feat without belonging to a preferred class of said region. Who knew? The Taer region's classes are barbarian, druid and ranger. You could not qualify for battle jump with anything even close to this build, as far as I can tell.

    Finishing with this, let's move to the Sugliin. I have one minor issue and two real issues:

    Sugliins are weird. Without Sugliin mastery, they take a full round action to attack – and you can't get mastery with your BaB. However, they have no language forbidding them from being used without a full round action in other scenarios – it seems you should be able to do an AoO, for example. This leads us to think a martial strike should work as a standard action, as well as other weird options changing the action type of an attack. I feel squimish about this reasoning, but I cannot say it's contradicted by the rules – it's only a slap on the wrist from me, which wouldn’t have been a bother here if it weren't for your plethora of other issues.

    Now, you take exotic weapon proficiency in heavy sugliins. I'm not the biggest fan of the tendency to automatically take overlapping exotic proficiencies whenever one takes the feat, but I get it. This still introduces some confusion: "Heavy" is a weapon quality associated with certain materials. You need to have a gold sugliin, a platinum sugliin, etc. This could get confusing, but lucky for both of us, you explicitly said you dipped your sugliin in alchemical gold. So, you're using a gold sugliin. Great. This brings me to my two major issues:

    Number one is the common sense issue, which is also stipulated in the rules. A sugliin isn't a metal weapon, and you can't make it from gold. With all due respect to your fluff of dipping it in gold, it's not a solution. Making weapons originally not metal into heavy weapons is explicitly illegal, and the Sugliin is probably the weapon with the least wiggle room materials-wise in the entirety of third edition.

    Number two is an issue with your damage description. You claim to do 4d8 damage at level 1, 8d8 at level 3. While your math is correct, it ignores one critical factor: you do not have a gold sugliin at these levels, as it costs 7,000 gold. You can't afford this until around level 5, and even then it's an ungodly percentage of your WBL. You can't even use a regular sugliin in your intended ways until then, because you're not proficient with it, and therefore it isn't considered a monk weapon for you, and you can't short haft it. This is a huge issue, and given that this build isn't really TO, I'm unwilling to handwave it aside as a relatively small issue. I'm sorry, but this is also a huge penalty.

    Another rules issue is you claiming to be able to flurry while doing a greater flyby. A greater flyby attack is a full round action, but not a full attack action, so you can't flurry. I also don't see how you can battle jump and decisive strike simultaneously. Decisive strike is an independent full round action, and you can't combine it with a charge, whether or not said charge is vertical. Am I missing something?

    Overall, despite a solid base, this is a terrible category for you. This build has enough illegal choices which are absolutely core to the build (battle jump and gold sugliin, especially) to make me seriously consider calling this entire build illegal, which would justify a 0. After some consideration, I've decided to err on the side of caution in my first judgement here, and not go that far – but it's still a 1, obviously. Sorry, bud.

    Score: 1 point.


    UoSI:

    This is somewhere you may have been able to shine more if you had more tactical information – it's possible I'm missing some non-obvious options you had in mind but didn't spell out. However, I have to admit I'm not super impressed.

    I like battlejump on a flier, though it's shines less bright when paired with the raptoran's dive attack. It could have gotten more use if you took it at first level (which you had to, and still can't without changing the build, but no double punishment), when you couldn't yet fly – it'd still be situationally great, and could possibly benefit from gliding.

    Utilizing Greater flyby attack with a weapon that would usually be far more restricted is also cool, and I dig it.

    Besides those… Is this build really about flying? Feels much more like it's about the polefighter-sugliin interaction, with the combination of flurry and decisive strike, allowing an E6 build which tops at 4 BaB to utilize this weapon in effective and interesting ways. Flight seems almost like an afterthought, at certain points.

    You're also a raptoran, which (while expected) means you only take flight at level 5. You glide until then, so that's a plus.

    Overall, while it's not as bad as a "happens to fly" build, I do see this as a sugliin build which utilizes flight as a sidekick, and I'm having a hard time giving you serious credit here.

    Score: 1.9 points.


    Total Score: 9.9 points. This build had a lot of rules issues, and not enough to make up for them in the other categories. I think it probably stemmed from trying to squeeze more juice out of great flyby, which I very much appreciate. Better luck next time!

    Spoiler: Grazzt Du'kal:
    Show
    Originality:

    I'm a huge fan of starspawn as your flight method. I hadn't thought of it, and it's cool and flavorful as hell. I also didn't really anticipate a swift hunter coming, though they're quite common – so a wash on that front. It makes sense and shows good thinking. Great reach for great flyby is a good thought that shall be further addressed later. Silverbrow human… yawn.
    I like your tropical-vampire feel you're giving off. Your fluff wasn't mind blowing, but it got the feel across, and my mind can fill in the blanks. Very well done.

    Score: 4 points.


    Power:

    Not too bad. You've got good maneuverability at epic levels, and your early career enjoys the flyby-skirmish combo greatly to stay out of reach and do decent damage. You're a good sneak, with ranks in listen and spot – nothing to complain about on that front. You don’t have darkvision I think, which is a bummer for a sneak, but listen ranks surely help.

    You can only attack 2 people with your great flyby, which makes it less impressive – you've made great efforts to make your line wider, and a lot of that goes to waste. You're mad as hell, which could have been mitigated, but we'll cover the details in elegance.

    Overall, you've got a good combination of combatant and skill monkey going on, while managing better safety than most scouts. 5d6 bonus damage is decent for E6. This is still not a power house, but it's pretty good stuff.

    Score: 3.75 points.


    Elegance:

    2 flaws is a -2 to elegance right off the bat, as stated in the rules. It's a huge penalty I'm really unsure you needed to take. Sure, darkstalker is good, and necessary at medium levels and above – but this is E6. You should get a lot of value from sneaking throughout your early career with only occasional trouble, and you have access to a lot of feats. Couldn't it have waited? Couldn't you manage without two instances of travel devotion?

    To add insult to injury, I don't know what your flaws are. Shaky is easy for you, but everything else sucks hard, and I need to know what sacrifice you were actually making.

    You don't qualify for favored enemy (arcanists), which requires a point of Knowledge (arcana). I empathize with you on this one, it has caught me off guard before (though the judge didn't notice at the time.) That's a penalty, my condolences.

    You also engage in some iffy qualifying with extended reach and air heritage. Air heritage requires racial fly speed, not "natural" fly speed. This balances out with how clever and attentive the actual attempt was – born flier is a great find, and would probably be passable by most DMs. This would've granted you a bonus here if it was legal, but as is, it's a wash. Flexible limbs for extended reach… I don't know. We'll give you a slap on the wrist, because both sides of the equation are ambiguous enough for me to feel uncomfortable about a fully-fledged penalty.

    My biggest personal gripe with this build, even if not the most impactful score-wise, is how inattentively wasteful it is. The redundant flaw is one example, but there are many others. Where is your attribute increase at 4? I can deduce it's probably Str, but I don't know for sure. You say you needed combat expertise to qualify for something, but for the life of me I couldn't see what. Seems like you just wasted 3-5 point-buy points on intelligence (you could've managed 8, 10 would've been easy) and a bonus feat for… nothing. A really bad feat for your build. You know what you could've gotten? Weapon-freaking-finesse. Drop your Str to 14 (or 12, if Int is 10) and your Int to 8 (or 10, if Str is 12), and you could've had 17 Dex, 18 at level 4. Double the targets for great flyby! Double, on an entry with the reach to actually utilize that feat! More AC, better initiative… You're mad as hell, and you didn't need to be at all. You have reach even without a long spear, and you can still utilize one, especially if you only drop your Str to 14 – you would lose literally nothing over your current build, and a mere +1 to attack and damage if you'd have remembered to increase Str at 4. Dump survival, dump the jump synergy, and you only need to give up 4 skill points across the board to have 8 int. You could grab exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) later in the build, for that reach-finesse goodness. Thoughtless. You dump 2 feats in the end into "generally good feat" because you didn't know what else to do with them. So much dead weight in this build. You also carry with you a combat style you'd never use, instead of asking yourself what your alternatives are for 1 second. Movement is one of your most precious resources in this build, and wildshape ranger would net you 10 ft (5 for flying) at virtually 0 cost, online at level 5 – earlier if you were to mix some levels. All you'd give up is a weak tactical option that doesn't work with the weapon in your hands, so it'd waste an entire turn to even go online.

    None of this is to say the build isn't smart. It is. It's also deliberate and has great unity of purpose. You fully list your sources and have a great and informative tactics section. It's good enough to balance out the penalty for mage hunter DQ, the unspecified flaws and my entire rant combined. Even with this entire mess, this would've been a 2.9 (limbs issue).

    However, you're carrying two flaws, and rules are rules. I'm sorry.

    Score: 1 point.


    UoSI:

    Time to relax. Take a breath. Angry H has scrambled away, mumbling something about wasted potential. We're done with the flagellation, and we're at the good part.

    This build is phenomenal, as far as utilizing flight is concerned. It has flight online from the very first level. It utilizes flyby attack like only a scout can, and it manages to transform great flyby from an uncommon situational move to a reliable and potent way of dealing with more than one enemy. It's entirely focused on flight – what it has to offer, and how it can be optimized. It covers for your weaknesses, and is enhanced by your strength. You're a flier, through and through. My only issue is the nature of starspawn, which keeps you close to the ground, but overall, this is awesome.

    Score: 5 points.


    Total score: 13.75 points. I like this build more than the final score represents. It could have been really good with some more polish. A cool and sleek premise, botched by an inattentive and careless execution. I can't pretend I'm not frustrated with you, but it's not the frustration that comes with a bad entry – but that which comes with the squandered potential of an entry on the verge of greatness. I'm looking forward to what you build next time!

    Spoiler: Hildegard:
    Show
    Originality:

    Your fluff is weird. I dig it, though I'm feeling like it's probably a pop-culture reference I'm missing.

    Warlock was something I've assumed we might see – flying with fell flight at skyscraper level, throwing down eldritch spears. This… this I did not see coming. Same for the cavalry. Good work! Dragonborns (wings) were also expected, wood elves not so much. Cleric dips always show up, and is a small penalty.

    I have to give you credit for your creative main schtick here, but… oh boy. Just you wait.

    Score: 3.9 points.


    Power:

    Persistent rhino's rush is pretty sick, and a huge power boost from a 1 level investment. Your overall damage is alright, and starts shining more brightly once you get said all-day rhino's rush, and spirited charge. Your damage isn’t nearly as good as you think, though – I'm giving you credit for the damage you actually have. For more on that, go to elegance.

    You’ve also got a decent ranged option with eldritch blast, and UMD can get you out of a lot of trouble. Warlocks and clerics are simply more powerful than the classes we've seen here so far, and mounted lance is a strong option when available. You're mostly enjoying these factors, and they help you manage the fact that this build doesn't manage to pull any power from its intended synergies.

    Mortalbane seems like such a waste of feats. 1 time? Great, you've got 5 times a day to try and do ~7 extra damage when it matters. Not as good as it is on multi-target SLAs, but alright nonetheless. 2 times? Less impactful, and rarely worth it… it's a stretch, but it's reasonable. 4 times? You still do the same damage as 1 instance, except you can pull it off 20 times a day. Change the placements of the multiplications and divisions in this equation and you'll easily see what a bad trade you've just made. When looked at as a block, your 4 feats can each be described as granting you a 1.75 damage boost on an attack, up to 20 times a day. This is significantly worse than weapon specialization, and you took it 4 times. You may think that's not a fair description, averging them out like that – but that's exactly the point! You're the one who chose to spread the same damage over 4 feats instead of 1. Think of how bad what I just described is, and realize that your third and fourth instances are actually even worse than that feat. This is decreasing marginal revenue 101, my friend. You should have stuck to 1 instance, two at most.

    Overall, this build doesn't manage to pull any real power from where its focus lies. Luckily, cleric DMM, a tier 3 class, UMD ranks and a couple of good feats don't let you become useless – but you're still left far less impressive than you could've been.

    Score: 3.85 points.


    Elegance:

    Cleric of an ideal as a "get whatever I want" tool is something I heavily dislike. However, I could see a chaotic neutral ideal of war and wrath working, so not terrible. I'm a bit biased in your favor, because I love the wrath domain and have used it (very effectively, IMO) in this terribly received entry. I'm not a fan of persistent DMM cheese.

    You source everything, though you source an older source for persistent spell – it's also in complete arcane, which came out a few months later and is also in your list. Your build breakdown is well written and informative. You do suffer from multiclassing penalties, unfortunately, from as early in your career as possible.

    I don't understand how you think you replace Aereni focus. The rite of rebirth can be used to shuffle feats in two ways: Either you replace any one feat you have with a 1st level only feat requiring the dragonblood subtype (which you could have done, I guess) or you lose feats because you no longer have their requirements due to the rite, and then replace them with any other feat you do qualify for. Flyby attack isn't a dragonblood first level feat, and you still qualify for Aereni Focus. Did you maybe think you were no longer an elf? The race crossed out in your stub seems to imply that. If so, you were unfortunately wrong. As a side note, if you're ever looking for ride as a class skill again, you should take a look at the lupins from dragon compendium.

    Now, to the meat of the build:
    what is fairly unassailable is that charging on a mount still leaves a Standard for the attack.
    Allow me to assail that. No, mounted combat rules do not allow you to make a standard action charge attack when your mount charges. Mounted combat rules are weird and broken, and so you could make a standard attack once your mount has finished charging at someone, but that would just be a normal attack. When your mount charges, you can make a single attack at the end of the charge, which benefits from the charge and is a charge attack, but not a standard action. Ride by attack even specifies you make an attack "as if" you were using a standard action. Is my view rock solid? No, but I'd say neither is yours. While I recognize that there's a place for confusion here, I wholly disagree with your interpretation here.

    I am confused by your reading of dive charge and fly by attack. You claim it is unequivocal. Is this supposed to be an honest to God interpretation of the rules, or is this meant to be a… For the lack of a better word, Dare-esque "gotcha!" moment, using the language of the designers against them? To your credit, I'm going to assume it's the second option, because this is not a reasonable reading. Dive is a word which has meaning, outside of the definition of "dive attack", which is always referred to as a dive attack. You can flyby even when going straight down, you don't get to flyby while charging someone else. This is the logical conclusion of your claim, and it doesn't work. I'm also unclear on your attempt to "charge up" hideous blow, as I don't read anything in its description allowing such a thing. This was my misunderstanding, scoring adjusted.

    Finally, and most importantly: Your entire build unfortunately falls apart because there is no rule allowing your extra damage dice to multiply on a hideous blow. If this was the case, it wouldn't be nearly as trash as it is – you could go for crit-fishing, or indeed a spirited charge, opening up damage options not available to a blaster. Unfortunately, it's still a rider effect granting additional damage dice, and those don't multiply, pretty much ever. Same goes for your mortal hunter dice, of course. This was a good idea, but it does not work, which hampered your entire build.

    Overall, there were some cool ideas in here – but several issues, including illegalities and rules misunderstandings at the very heart of the build are enough to trash your score here. This is another one when I was on the verge of raising my hands, saying "illegal build" and being done with it. What is it with this round and elegance?

    Score: 1.15 1.25 points.


    UoSI:

    You're not getting any special penalty here. In fact, you're getting what I like to call "valiant attempt credit" – I can't award you points in power for power you don't have, but I can give you a small boost here for trying to do something interesting with the ingredient, giving it attention.

    Unfortunately, this is not enough for a good score.

    You're a dedicated charger / warlock. You were going for one trick which didn't work, and what we're left with is a charger that can fly when necessary. It's necessary a lot, and you're far from useless – but in this category, the relevant factor is that you have a flying mount and wings from level 6, you don't get any unique use out of them, and you have one flying feat which you'll never use (though see valiant attempt bonus.) This is nearly as bad as it can get.

    Score: 1.5 points.


    Total score: 10.4 10.5 points. You ended up with a pretty low score, which is unfortunate. Though illegalities were only punished in elegance, I was not able to give you the credit you would have in power (and to a lesser degree, UoSI) with a working build. I like what you were trying to do here – your score doesn't represent this build being terrible in every aspect, as much as it does reflect a build with illegalities and misconceptions at its very core.

    Spoiler: Mooncasai Munkedu:
    Show
    Originality:

    Your story is short and to the point. I personally prefer more in depth fluff, but as you know by this point, I only penalize a complete lack of fluff. I like the Wizard of Oz inspiration, though I think it'd work better thematically (in E6, there are better ways later) with a with an aspect of nature druid. Wildshape kind of loses the flavor.

    Speaking of druid, wild shape was a very expected path for flight, of course, and wildshape ranger to do it isn't novel. I expected druid more, but I still saw it coming. Your race pick is unusual, but it's hard to give you credit for it here when it feels like at this point, it's there for no reason. Weapon finesse as a bonus is great for you, but is It worth your point buy being all messed up? No thematic reason to be a monkey once you gave up on Oz expy, no mechanical reason to be one once you didn't need to be a monstrous humanoid… Though I understand that it is an artefact of earlier versions of the build, the final product feels less like an original and creative choice and more like "LOL random" sabotaging yourself.

    Nature's warrior is part of the wildshape ranger trio of prcs, and wasn't surprising to me in this context – though wings of the hurricane is a good pick, and it will be credited in the UoSI department. Your tactics ate those of a pounce charger, and don't scream "original" to me. Shooting star + Sword of the arcane order is a tried-and-true combination. Dragon Magazine's Mystic ranger kind of hurt you here by helping to make these two an online staple of E6 optimization.

    Overall, I'm sorry to say that this build rings hollow to me in this category. The only real unexpected ingredient is the racial pick, which isn't utilized in any interesting ways and isn't built upon.

    Score: 1.5 points.


    Power:

    WIldshape is great, even when limited to 6 HD animals of medium or small size. Extra wildshape was an excellent feat choice in that regard – without it you'd be hard pressed to ever spend a daily use for utility purposes. Having that option is a straight boost here, plain and simple.

    Pounce charging with 3 attacks, knowledge devotion and bonus damage is 100% a valid combat tactic, though your damage isn't as significant as you claim it is. More on that in elegance, by the way.

    A second attack outside of wild shape can help you feel less useless, and a first level wizard spell here and there is certainly a good option – even if it's somewhat more limited than what an actual 1st level wizard could do. Lack of natural spell also makes your casting less significant – there are plenty of excellent 1st level wizard spells which could be very useful to you If you could cast them in and before combat. You don't currently qualify, but you could by moving a point from Str to Wis, which would hurt nothing.

    Darkstalker, move silently, hide and spot make you a good basic scout, even if you can't search for traps or listen for unseen opponents. You're not a real knowledge-monkey, but it's serviceable.

    Overall, you're plying a good charger with more flexibility than a lot of the field. Well done.

    Score: 4.25 points.


    Elegance:

    You've got most of the basics covered with a clear and straight-forward build. A useful tactical breakdown, a clean table, no multiclass penalties, and everything sourced – besides dire hawk, in MMII, which does cause a penalty given how central it is to your build. You're getting a tiny boost here specifically for shooting star sword of the arcane order – despite being well known, it works together well thematically and mechanically.

    As I mentioned in power, I have an issue with your damage math. You assume you can double the damage from your diving charge with a charge attack, but again – extra dice don't get multiplied. This is the second build in this competition to feature this issue, and I'm starting to get paranoid that I'm the one in the wrong – but I don't think so.

    I'm not sure what's going on with improved flyby attack, as I'm not sure how partial actions are translated to 3.5. The most obvious conclusion to me is that this is simply a flyby attack usable without provoking AOO. This would be great if you were a flyby focused character, but you are a charger. I'm reading you as saying that you can use this to charge without provoking, due to the "including a dive" language. As has been addressed already with the previous entry, I disagree. A dive attack isn't a move action.A dive attack isn't a move action, and "a dive" here doesn't refer IMO to a dive charge.

    Overall, this mostly balances out. A straightforward and generally elegant submission with no particular strengths in this category, and a few weaknesses.

    Score: 3.35 points.


    UoSI:

    Maxing out speed on diving charge is nice, and getting perfect maneuverability is great on anyone and is definitely appreciated this round. Expeditious dodge is nearly always better than the default version, and this is far truer on a movement based build. Flight from 5. Not having flight in your base form is a penalty here, but having four uses per day (you're technically capable of flying 24/7) mitigates that a lot.

    I'm giving you a boost here for attempting to deal with the AOO issue through improved flyby – though, again, I'm not reading it as allowing you to actually avoid AOOs while charging.

    Overall, good stuff.

    Score: 4 points.


    Total score: 13.1 points. This is a good and straightforward build, pretty sleek and definitely effective. It sprang from a cool and strange idea, which probably blindsided you to the fact that you ended up making an entry that just wasn't very unique. Still, well done.

    Spoiler: Pippin:
    Show
    Originality: There's barely enough fluff here for me not to penalize this. I always say I don't penalize short fluff, and I won't – but a one-sentence description and a throwaway line at level 6 is just barely enough. Try to give me a bit more to work with next time, will you?

    As said before, raptorans were on the horizon as soon as this SI was declared. Rangers were also expected (though mostly in wild shape capacity), and did show up a lot – but like with Graazt, that's a wash. Clerics show up often, especially as knowledge/travel devotion dips (a short note on that in power,) so that's a small penalty. Ardents show up pretty often as well, but I didn't clock them coming here – especially when not taken at 6th (or even 3rd) level with practiced manifester.

    Horizon walker is surprising and brilliant. Maybe it's a well-known trick, I don't know – but it's the first time I've seen it, and it's great. Well done. I also really enjoy the way everything flows together thematically. It all makes a lot of sense, character wise, even when it's not that mechanically optimal. Wing expert is a small boost too – it's cool and thematic, and isn't seen too often.

    Mechanically, dive attacks are where its at and were pretty expected, and charge-travel-charge-travel is a classic pouncer tactic, but foot spikes help mitigate that punishment by being thematic and not as expected.

    Overall, a pretty expected entry at heart, but still creative and unique. Your thematic choices pulled some weight here. Well done.

    Score: 3.2 points.


    Power:

    You're a decent diver, like a lot of the field. Attacking with both of your spikes is an excellent damage source for someone who'd otherwise have issues doing significant damage. Dive to travel devotion with insane speed is a mean trick, and powering it with turn undead makes it usable throughout the day. Your actual damage is pretty underwhelming though – especially when considering your difficulty in punching through DR and your far less impressive options when not charging.

    No reason not to be a cloistered cleric, K. devotion would have helped even without many skill points to invest, and you wouldn't have wasted a skill point on heal – you could've bought another point in geography, and points in relevant knowledge skills for devotion. Sloppy, could have been more powerful.

    Ardents usually make for potent dips, but you get surprisingly little out of it besides a speed increase. You got credit in originality for your thematic cohesion, but it's not doing you many favors here. Animals are similarly part of your thematic attractiveness, but are a really bad favored enemy.

    You're putting three feats into the thunderstep tactic. This is a decent option for someone charging as often as you are, but not as potent is at may appear to be. The language of thunderstep boots makes me believe that the extra damage should only apply once, and it is of course not doubled. The stun effect is excellent, but a DC 15 fortitude save should be nearly trivial for the absolute majority of enemies you'd run into this late into the build. In general, I'd say many of your epic feats seem to be pretty unimpactful. "Better than lightning reflexes", for example, is hardly a compliment, even when that's your weakest save.

    You're still an effective combatant, but you're MAD, you're damage isn't mind blowing, I feel like you slightly taper off later in the build, and unlike most rangers, you're hardly a skill monkey. Cleric casting helps you coast here. I can't rate this too low, given how effective your main tactic will usually be, but you're not as powerful as you appear to be at first glance, IMO.

    Score: 3.5 points


    Elegance:

    The build is largely focused on repeated charges using travel devotion, which is a good thing to be focused on, but feels like it meanders at parts. Still, most of your effort is focused on this one thing, and though with one notable exception nothing struck me as particularly clever, it's still a methodical and purposeful build. Well done on that front.

    Your table is kind of messy, and you suffer from multiclass penalties, which is a penalty from me. I know many tables huouserule this issue away, but it's still a rule. Your tactical breakdown was useful and easy, though I'm not a fan of spoilering each individual epic feat. This is just a presentation preference and doesn't impact your score here.

    Duthila wasn't sourced and was misspelled – I was lucky I just assumed she was probably in races of the wild, once google failed me in finding her. Once I found her, I was surprised to discover she was true neutral – which makes her an illegal choice for you. Easy to fix by being NG, so it isn't build destroying by any stretch, but still – not a small penalty. When joined with the penalty for failing to source the deity and that for not correctly spelling her name, this entire mess cost you a full point, which could have been easily avoided. Ouch.

    Overall, this is a fairly clever build, held back by an "ugly" table and by the Duthila fiasco.

    Score: 2.75 points.


    UoSI:

    You're tactically reliant on flying for staying out of trouble and for putting bonus damage on attacks that would otherwise be unimpressive. Your weapon of choice would be unusable without being airborne, and it allows you to get a two-weapon-pounce effect your chassis wouldn't otherwise be able to support. Excellent.

    You fly more consistently than most raptorans due to your brilliant choice of dipping horizon walker – a trick usually used for raging multiple times. It showed thought and care, and you get credit for it. Gliding until level 5 is a shame, but that's how it goes.

    You invest enough resources to have a very fast flying speed with good maneuverability, none-magical, accessible all day long. Good.

    Ease of breath was a cute thought. You're not reaching altitude-sickness heights with your raptoran flying by any means, but I still like that you paid attention to a detail like that.

    Overall, this is an excellent use of the secret ingredient.

    Score: 4.5 points.


    Total score: 13.95 points. This was a neat execution of a good concept. I greatly enjoyed the thematic cohesion of the build – if I was the one designing the judging metric, I would have a distinct category for that. As is, all I can do is give a small boost in originality. Well done!
    Last edited by H_H_F_F; 2021-10-02 at 04:41 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    That's one of the drawbacks about having a round built around something unique like; Flight! There are only so many ways to achieve it and only so many ways to use it!

    My 2 credits, err coppers I mean, been playing a lot of Traveller lately ;-0
    Last edited by lylsyly; 2021-09-28 at 04:07 PM.
    Currently Playing:
    Kobrea Aelwyn - An Epic Half Fey Kobold Elf Friend ;-D))))))
    Gearing up for a new Gestalt campaign ;-)

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Whoof! My God, guys, sorry for the delays. Busy times.
    Nothing to apologise for - still much faster than I usually manage. Thanks for your judgements! No disputes from me.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Table

    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef loky1109 H_H_F_F Judge 3 Judge 4 Total Place
    Bash Jordon LN Raptoran Fighter 2 / Sohei 2 / Monk 2 10 9.9 19.9 5th
    Graazt Du'kal CE Silverbrow Human Scout 4 / Ranger 2 12.75 13.75 26.5 3rd
    Hildegard CG Dragonborn Cleric 1 / Warlock 5 14.5 10.5 25 4th
    Mooncasai Munkedu NG Anthropomorphic Monkey Ranger 5 / Nature's Warrior 1 18 13.1 31.1 2nd
    Pippin CG Raptoran Ranger 3 / Cleric 1 / Ardent 1 / Horizon Walker 1 18.5 13.95 32.45 1st
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-10-02 at 04:56 AM.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Thanks for the table, Loky! I am awaiting disputes, if any come.

    Kuulvheysoon, are you still in to judge?

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Great White North

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Thanks for the table, Loky! I am awaiting disputes, if any come.

    Kuulvheysoon, are you still in to judge?
    I've still got Pippin left to judge- the free time that I thought that I had mysteriously evaporated. that and exhaustive research concerning charging, diving and the interactions therein.

    That being said, if Zaq wants to move on, go ahead. Probably won't have time to finish until this weekend.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Thanks for the table, Loky! I am awaiting disputes, if any come.
    You are welcome!

    I am awaiting, too.
    Spoiler: Villainous Competition medals.
    Show
    Creeping Ghoulification - VC XL BRONZE
    Xokhtohm - VC XL+1 BRONZE

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    With a judge having completed 80% of his (right?) work, and anticipating having free time this weekend, I would be against moving forward before judgement is submitted.

    As chair, Zaq is free to do as he sees fit in this case, but that is my opinion on the matter.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Sorry for disappearing, team! I'm willing to wait for one more build if we've got a judge almost done.

    Couple of disputes! I'm being pulled in a few directions at once right now so I don't have the time to be as picky as usual about only the hard-RAW parts of the disputes, but I trust that everyone here is going to be chill about that and won't take it as an opportunity for nefarious stuff.

    From Mooncasai Munkedu:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncasai
    Hello H_H_F_F, thank you for judging! The only gray area I feel about commenting on is the diving charge not being multiplied.

    I agree with you, for the purpose of critical hits, extra/bonus dice aren't multiplied because the critical hit rules specifically calls out that extra/bonus dice are not multiplied.

    While this can be used as a guideline to assume that this is valid for all sources of multiplying damage, no such exception is called out on the dive attack (or spirited charge, to use a different example), they only say to multiply your damage. It may or may not be implied that it's excluding bonus damage dice, but it is not written as such in cold hard ink (unless I missed a clarification somewhere such as the rules compendium which could totally be the case!).

    That's why I assumed diving charge was multiplied on a dive attack, when I read (past tense, damn you irregular verb) them next to each other, nothing indicates that the diving charge bonus dice shouldn't be multiplied (as in, not rolled again, but take the result amd multiply it), ome has to remember the critical hit rule exception to think that maybe it isn't. Which at the time I didn't remember/think about.
    From Graazt Du'kal:

    Quote Originally Posted by Graazt Du'kal
    To begin with, thank you for the judgements! I’m glad you (aside from the Elegance Issues) seemed to enjoy this build. A couple points with respect to elegance because I can’t help myself, even though the Flaws overshadow possible gains.


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    2 flaws is a -2 to elegance right off the bat, as stated in the rules. It's a huge penalty I'm really unsure you needed to take. Sure, Darkstalker is good, and necessary at medium levels and above – but this is E6. You should get a lot of value from sneaking throughout your early career with only occasional trouble, and you have access to a lot of feats. Couldn't it have waited? Couldn't you manage without two instances of travel devotion?

    To add insult to injury, I don't know what your flaws are. Shaky is easy for you, but everything else sucks hard, and I need to know what sacrifice you were actually making.
    On the flaws: Darskstalker becomes relevant the second enemies have Scent, which is from level 1, and if I don’t take it with a Flaw there’s no space until Epic Feats which felt too late. Additionally, this opened up a second slot for Travel Devotion, which with a relatively low flight speed is rather essential for combat positioning. Considering a recommended number of daily encounters is four (and in my experience at least two is normal), getting more Travel Devotion seemed worthwhile. I could have avoided Flaws without Travel Devotion(s) I suppose, though this would have pushed back Starspawn and Swift Hunter.
    I didn’t specify which Flaws I was taking because in my experience with IRL games I’ve always had the Flaws chosen for me by the DM. Otherwise everyone would always take Shaky and Vulnerable on a melee character, and Non-Combatant and Vulnerable on a Ranged one. In the future I will specify.


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    You also engage in some iffy qualifying with extended reach…
    I’m not sure how this one is ambiguous?
    Quote Originally Posted by Abberation Blood
    Benefit: You gain a physical feature…. Chosen from the following list: … Flexible Limbs….
    Quote Originally Posted by Extended Reach
    Prerequisite: feeler, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, or pseudopod, Small or larger size
    While this is pseudo-fluff (the crunch being a +2 on Grapple Checks), I suppose that the Flexible Limbs physical feature could just be your joints are more flexible, but well, joints already flex, so. The second quoted line could be limiting in that I haven’t established a fully non-rigid body with explicit crunch, and I don’t have Improved Unarmed Strike (though you can still punch things, so arms are still an attack form).


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    My biggest personal gripe with this build….
    This is a fair cop, and an artifact of running out of time and poor editing. An earlier version of the build had Combat Expertise into Improved Trip into Knockdown as E9&10, which required STR15, and I didn’t copy over my updated ability spread. Whoops.
    From Hildegard:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hildegard
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Mortalbane seems like such a waste of feats….granting you a 1.75 damage boost on an attack, up to 20 times a day. This is significantly worse than weapon specialization, and you took it 4 times….
    I’m going to be perfectly honest and say I don’t understand your math here at all. Mortalbane gives on average 7 damage on five attacks. That’s ~1 encounter. Each additional instance of Mortalbane gives on average 7 damage on five additional attacks. That’s better than Weapon Specialization for each of those 20 attacks (in fact it is AT WORST as good as Weapon Specialization for those attacks, doing 2-12 damage). If this was an exhibition match I would agree that more instances of Mortalbane is a waste, but in normal play I’d rather never run out during an adventuring day. I also can’t get Weapon Specialization, so that feels a bit like a false equivalency.


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I don't understand how you think you replace Aereni focus.
    I straight up forgot that the Right of Rebirth lets you still count as a member of your original race. If that weren’t the case that would trigger the clause that lets you replace no-longer qualified for feats with whatever you want as long as you qualify. Before I tried to be cheeky with Dragonborn feat replacement I had only 3 Mortalbane (I think you would have liked that) and took Flyby Attack as E1.


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Now, to the meat of the build: .... long discussion, some of which I agree with
    Alright, first the bits I agree with: the EB and Mortalbane extra damage wouldn’t multiply. I got carried away and just plain forgot that rule. That’s on me. Maximize Spell-Like Ability (CAr p81) would allow it to work 3x a day, but I didn’t include that.

    Now onto the bits I think I maybe miscommunicated. Flyby attack specifically calls out making a Standard Action at any point during the move, not a Standard Attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Attack
    When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move.
    This is what I’m basing the attack routine around. We Flyby Attack and use Hideous Blow in place of an attack. The second bit hinges on the use of the word ‘dive’ in that description. As you mentioned, in the Special Abilities (Fly) description it does say ‘dive attack,’ not simply ‘dive,’ and that could be the end of it. In fact, this is probably at the point of DM adjudication. However, at no other location is the word ‘dive’ used to describe flight mechanics. The Movement Modes section specifically calls out ‘Down Angle,’ and ‘Down Speed,’ not ‘Dive Angle,’ or ‘Dive Speed.’ When Flyby Attack takes the time to specifically call out the ability to dive as a move action it implies to me that it is saying you can make a dive attack, since all other movements are covered by ‘move action’ and there is no definition of ‘dive’ in the flying rules. This would allow us to count as charging for the Hideous Blow Standard Action on the Flyby Attack, as a Dive is equivalent to a Charge.

    I’m not sure where I said you could ‘charge up’ Hideous Blow, but on the off-chance I just suck at ctrl+f and reading comprehension (possible), it would have been a turn of phrase to indicate using it as a Standard Action during a Flyby Attack.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 35. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    No wirries, Zaq, it happens.

    I'll be looking into your disputes tomorrow, guys. Hope to give you a response soon.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •