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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Update judging.

    for Hildegard.
    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    We have a big, big problem here. And some problems that are not so big, but let go step by step.
    Wrath Domain. First, you didn't specify the source, but this will be later.
    I found it in the Book of Exalted Deeds. That’s what I thought at first. But I was wrong. Wrath from BoED isn't your Wrath. It has Doom as a first level spell, not Rhino’s Rush. Wrath with Rhino’s Rush is from Dragon #323. This violation doesn't kill your build entirely, but this is a serious mistake (-2.5).
    I accidentally found Wrath Domain with Rhino’s Rush in book. This is Spell Compendium.
    So I remove -2.5 penalty.

    But I can't understand, why didn't you send any disputes??? This was my obvious mistake.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Update judging.

    for Hildegard.

    I accidentally found Wrath Domain with Rhino’s Rush in book. This is Spell Compendium.
    So I remove -2.5 penalty.

    But I can't understand, why didn't you send any disputes??? This was my obvious mistake.
    I've been informed by Hildegard's chef that they simply forgot! But speaking just for myself, I think it's really classy of you to bring that up and correct it. Thanks for doing so!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I've been informed by Hildegard's chef that they simply forgot! But speaking just for myself, I think it's really classy of you to bring that up and correct it. Thanks for doing so!
    You didn't need thank me for fixing my own errors. I should do this.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-10-02 at 04:34 AM.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Addressing disputes:

    Spoiler: Mooncasai
    Show
    Unfortunately, there is such a general rule, friend. From the SRD: "Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit… exception: extra damage dice… are never multiplied.

    No change in score

    Spoiler: Graazt
    Show
    Parts of this dispute don't really hold up to Zaq's standards, but those are very harsh and since he let me respond to this one, I will. Just be noted that this won't fly with him when he's not as busy – look at the dispute guidelines in the OP.

    I now better understand why you didn't specify flaws, but this doesn't change the fact that in this competition, you're allowed and expected to pick them AFAIK. Unless I get a chair decision explicitly saying I should not penalize for this, the penalty remains. Please do so in the future.

    As for darkstalker – I agree it's helpful from level 1. Of course it is. But it's not nearly as mandatory as it is later. Scent isn't as dangerous as other senses in that regard, and at low levels enemies with just normal sight are far more common than later. Is it good to have at level 1? Yes. Is it worth a flaw? Absolutely not. You'll note I didn't say both your flaws were dead weight – Sometimes you gotta take a flaw, and I agree that starspawn was such a case. But flaws carry a heavy price, and just tacking another one on is a shame, as I have to drop you a full point, by the rules. This is of course mathematically more impactful with judges like myself who tend to give out more conservative bonuses and penalties, but it's always bad news, even with judges who tend to give out a wider range of scores. I just recommend you'll be more careful with them in the future. Penalty stays.

    As for extended reach – do you really not see how it's ambiguous? I get the argument for it, of course, which is why it wasn't a full penalty. But can we really fully equate "flexible" with "non-rigid", especially when the examples clearly show to what extent non-rigidity is expected? Flexible could mean all your joints go both ways, or that you have extra joints, or that your bones are as soft as a baby's. In addition, you don't have a non-rigid body, just limbs. Are your limbs "an attack form"? Doesn't "such as a tentacle or a pseudopod" imply an attack form means a natural weapon? These are two weird feats, and it's unclear enough for me to slap you on the wrist. Penalty stays.

    No change in score, unfortunately. I would have loved to give you a better one.

    Spoiler: Hildegard
    Show
    Clarifying my point on mortalbane, which I obviously didn't explain well enough:

    Weapon specialization is considered a bad feat, as 2 points of damage aren't usually considered being worth a feat. This is not as strong a case in E6, but I still hold it to be true. If 2 points of damage aren't worth a feat, than 8 points of damage aren't worth 4 feats – it still averages out to 2 damage per feat, so it's still a bad trade, just one that has been made repeatedly. If I could stack weapon specialization, I still shouldn't take it for this reason. 1 feat isn't worth 2 points of damage, no matter how many times you've made the bad trade. This statement would still hold true if instead I took 3 feats with no benefits as prereqs to a feat giving me 8 damage. Mathematically, when looked at as a block of 4 feats, it's the same – except in this case, in actual play, I'm suffering even worse for many levels. The end result is the exact same though, and it's still bad, because 1 feat still shouldn’t be paid for a 2 damage increase. A single feat giving 8 damage is a great feat, but the prereqs of 3 useless feats made it actually be bad, as it only gives 2 damage per feat spent.

    My point was that when looking at your feats as a block, we can see that you paid 4 feats for seven damage – with limitations. Remember me saying how paying 4 feats for 8 damage would still average out to 2 damage per feat, no matter how the damage is actually distributed among the feat chain? On average, when looked at as a block, each instance of the feat (again, only when looked at as a block) could be described as giving you an average of 1.75 damage, with significant target limitations, not capable of being multiplied, 20 times a day – because you paid 4 feats for 7 damage 20 times a day. Like with the superfeat, which averaged out to giving 2 damage per feat spent despite giving 8. Imagine that a 4th instance of mortalbane made the feat usable all day long, instead of increasing the cap by 5. This would be better, of course, but still average out to you paying 4 feats to get a seven damage increase against limited targets. This is obviously a terrible trade, and the trade you actually made is slightly worse.

    Now, in our previous example of taking 3 useless feat for 1 feat that would be great on its own, we could see that the build was suffering up until it got the final feat. When not looked at as a block, it's obvious the early feats are terrible, as they give nothing. Mortalbane, for you, is the exact opposite – hence me complaining about decreasing marginal revenue. Our analysis showed that even if a 4th instance gave us unlimited usage, mortalbane would still be a bad DPR feat when applied only to single targets. However, when looked at as a single instance, this changes drastically. When looked at the overall damage boost throughout the day, it's still terrible, because it'll always be terrible at that when applied to a single target. However, as a feat to give you the extra edge when you need it, not the damage through the day, it's decent. Think of smites – the damage smites give on average throughout the day is nothing, and they would make a terrible investment for an average DPR increase. But we don't care about the average DPR when we smite, we care about applying extra damage when we get the hunch it could turn the battle. This would be the only way mortalbane would be good for you, because as an average damage increase it sucks and isn't worth 4 feats you could do all sorts of amazing things with, especially given the resources at your disposal. Because of this, each instance you took of the feat was worse than the previous one, because it didn't help you do what the feat was good at (smite-like) better, only do what the feat was terrible at (daily damage) better. And if they're bad on average, and each feat is worse than the precious one, than oh boy is that last feat bad, right? I hope you better understand my point now – single target mortalbane sucks when used as a daily damage increase, and is pretty decent when used as a smite, and is therefore terrible to take more than once or twice at most. Whoof.

    As for flyby attack – yeah, okay, gotcha. You're trying to do more or less what I though you were going for, and I still don't agree that it's possible and the right interpretation of dive in this context. Mooncasai tried that too, and I disagree with this reading, though I get where it's coming from. You didn't try to charge up the blow, I'm clearer on this point now – but it was just a confusing detail to me, and not something I individually penalized, unfortunately, just a detail of the larger issue. Best I can give you here in good conscious is +0.1 to elegance.

    Score updated to 10.5 points.


    Sorry, guys.
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

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  5. - Top - End - #65
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Any judging updates?

    Anyway I've got a short list for the next ingredient. Are you feeling more like a concept, a high-magic class, or a moderate-magic class? All of them are thematically appropriate.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Concept. 10 characters
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

    The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!

    Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Moderate magic for me
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
    Show
    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Concept. ....
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
    Show
    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    I'll toss in a vote for moderate magic - magic rounds aren't where I thrive, but it'd be nice to have a straightforward round.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    My hat to magic, too either high or moderate

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Magic moderate.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Any update on the judging front, Kuulvheysoon?
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

    The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!

    Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    If there's no additional judgment ready, I'd like to move on in about 24 hours (roughly) if that works for everyone.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    For me is fine
    Finally my computer is without any problem!
    Spoiler: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition Medals
    Show
    Silver medal as Xin in Round XVII
    Gold Medal as Smit in Round XVIII
    Silver Medal as Hit Me In Round XIX
    Gold Medal as The Exiled in Round XIX
    Silver Medal as Elec Tri in Round XX
    Gold Medal as Tawamios in round XXI

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef loky1109 H_H_F_F Judge 3 Judge 4 Total Place
    Bash Jordon LN Raptoran Fighter 2 / Sohei 2 / Monk 2 daremetoidareyo 10 9.9 19.9 5th
    Graazt Du'kal CE Silverbrow Human Scout 4 / Ranger 2 RaiKirah 12.75 13.75 26.5 3rd
    Hildegard CG Dragonborn Cleric 1 / Warlock 5 RaiKirah 12.5 10.4 22.9 4th
    Mooncasai Munkedu NG Anthropomorphic Monkey Ranger 5 / Nature's Warrior 1 ciopo 18 13.1 31.1 2nd
    Pippin CG Raptoran Ranger 3 / Cleric 1 / Ardent 1 / Horizon Walker 1 MinimanMidget 18.5 13.95 32.45 1st

    Alright guys gals and nonbinary pals, that's a wrap! Thanks to our judges for spending time on this and validating the time our chefs pour into this (and special thanks to loky1109 for putting together the table for me)! Congrats to our medalists MinimanMidget, ciopo, and RaiKirah, but all of these entries were great!

    We'll have the new round up in a few minutes!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Congratulations, everyone! As I said, despite the low elegance scores I dished out, I see this as a great round. You guys were all very creative and unique. I'm sorry we didn't manage to get Kuulvheysoon's judgement, but RL gets in the way sometimes.

    Congrats on another gold medal, Minimanmidget. You seem to be really hoarding them.

    Raikirah, if someone asked me to rank the categories in rank of importance to me, I'd probably the order was say UoSI, originality, and elegance/power as a tie. Therefore, you'd not be surprised to hear that despite ending up in Bronze, Graazt is gold in my heart. I'd totally use a more polished version of this build. I'm sorry we couldn't see eye to eye on some stuff with both your builds.

    Congrats on Bronze, Ciopo. This was a well executed build, but I was surprised by how relatively bland it was - nothing near terrible, but I'm used to more exciting stuff from you.

    Dare - I'm sorry for penalizing you on lack of fluff, as I know you are first and foremost a tinkerer. I hope you can empathize with the way I do things, even of you disagree. As for the rest - I'd be interested in reading your commentary on the build, and any criticism on my judgement that wasn't worth a dispute. I always greatly enjoy your builds, even if my judgements as of late haven't really highlighted that.

    Thank you Loky, my brother in arms in the judging department, and thanks as always to Zaq for being the awesome chair that you are! Looking forward to next round!
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

    The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!

    Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Congrats to everyone, and thank you to loky1109 and H_H_F_F for judging!



    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Raikirah, if someone asked me to rank the categories in rank of importance to me, I'd probably the order was say UoSI, originality, and elegance/power as a tie. Therefore, you'd not be surprised to hear that despite ending up in Bronze, Graazt is gold in my heart. I'd totally use a more polished version of this build. I'm sorry we couldn't see eye to eye on some stuff with both your builds.
    H_H_F_F - I want to apologize for my tone in my disputes; i was less then generous in my comments and that's not who I want to be, so I am sorry for that. I believe I also owe an apology to Zaq here, since I didn't review the dispute rules and violated some with my less than exceptional disputes.


    Now that everything is out in the open, I'm curious if anyone else has an opinion on the wording in Flyby Attack, and whether you can count as Diving, and thus Charging, using the feat. I can admit (after stewing on it for a while) that it's a pretty permissive reading, and was wondering where other folks fall on that rule.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    Now that everything is out in the open, I'm curious if anyone else has an opinion on the wording in Flyby Attack, and whether you can count as Diving, and thus Charging, using the feat. I can admit (after stewing on it for a while) that it's a pretty permissive reading, and was wondering where other folks fall on that rule.
    I can certainly see the argument, and I can't find any uses of the word "dive" in the flying rules that aren't referring to dive attacks. That said, if I'd been judging, I'd still have penalised, since I'd still consider it at least a little dodgy. I have actually been wondering about Hildegard for a different reason. You see, I know riding a charging mount counts as charging, but does riding a flying mount count as flying? I can't find anything either way.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    does riding a flying mount count as flying? I can't find anything either way.
    I couldn't either, which is why I went for Dragonborn (Wings) to be flying in my own right and qualify for flyby attack. I'll admit it was a bit dubious :)

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer: Round XXXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    Congrats to everyone, and thank you to loky1109 and H_H_F_F for judging!

    H_H_F_F - I want to apologize for my tone in my disputes; i was less then generous in my comments and that's not who I want to be, so I am sorry for that.
    You're welcome! Thank you for apologizing. I do empathize with you here, and wasn't offended by the tone in your disputes, which was still overall civil and respectful.

    Though I stand behind my judgement, I didn't communicate the mortalbane point very clearly at all, and the frustration from something like that can lead to a feeling of your build being misunderstood or biased against. That can get you riled up, and that's completely understandable.
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

    The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!

    Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)

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