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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    I've been toying with the idea of a few subclasses for 5e that would de-emphasize resting. What I've landed on is rather than a rest or the passage of time restoring your abilities, is a kind of "combat currency" where your powers and class features are charged by performing specific actions in game.

    As I was starting to toy with this more and more, I realized I'd essentially re-derived the "Grit" feature from Pathfinder's Gunslinger class. However, I've never played a gunslinger, nor seen one played in any of my games, so I don't really know how that system actually worked out at the table.

    Can someone who's played a Pathfinder gunslinger, or any kind of system that works in a similar way, share their experiences? Thanks in advance!

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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dravda View Post
    I've been toying with the idea of a few subclasses for 5e that would de-emphasize resting. What I've landed on is rather than a rest or the passage of time restoring your abilities, is a kind of "combat currency" where your powers and class features are charged by performing specific actions in game.

    As I was starting to toy with this more and more, I realized I'd essentially re-derived the "Grit" feature from Pathfinder's Gunslinger class. However, I've never played a gunslinger, nor seen one played in any of my games, so I don't really know how that system actually worked out at the table.

    Can someone who's played a Pathfinder gunslinger, or any kind of system that works in a similar way, share their experiences? Thanks in advance!
    I donít know the details of the mechanics, but Matt Mercer of Critical Role fame famously converted Pathfinder 1eís Gunslinger to a D&D 5e Fighter subclass, and it keeps at least some of the Grit Point system. While popular among casual D&D players, itís not well-received among serious 5e optimizers due at least in part to the Misfire mechanic. Due to a licensing agreement between Mercer, the DMís Guild, and D&D Beyond, you can find it on the latter site.

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    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    I'm in a game with a swashbuckler, whose "panache" works the same way as "grit". It's an interesting subsystem, but the implementation makes the class more MAD by capping max panache with Charisma. That definitely hurts my friend's performance and enjoyment -- it's hard to delve into something that you barely get to use before it's gone. For 5e, proficiency bonus or prof.bonus+1 could serve as a cap (if one is needed at all).

    But yeah, that sort of thing should indeed help meet your goal of deemphasizing resting. The ways to gain and use panache are a flavorful and functional subsystem with their own rhythm separate from rests.
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    Personally, I'm not a fan of how easily grit divorces the effect gained by spending it from the action that generated it - somehow, getting a critical hit at noon can allow you to knock a creature out of the sky at 3:00 pm. Feels very "mechanics first, concept second.".
    Last edited by quinron; 2021-08-21 at 10:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    I've played with both Grit and Panache. At low levels you're being a lot more cautious with the points, ime, since both key off less important stats (Dexterity and Constitution are both more interesting than Charisma or Wisdom most of the time), so you don't have that much to go around and you always want to have 1 unspent Point because a lot of abilities rely on "while you have 1 Grit/Panache".

    I'd say that around level 8, when you've had two ability score increases and probably have some magic items to boost yourself, you'll be spending Grit/Panache a lot more freely. You might've picked up the Feat that gives you 2 more points as well (and there's the Gunman's Duster that allows you to start the day with 1 bonus Grit which can't be regained during the day). So that gives you much more leeway in spending Grit, and possibly regaining too as you're doing more damage and with things like Improved Critical you're more likely to score Critical Hits as well.

    So overall, I think the mechanic works fine. It's a balancing act of where you want to place your points as more Grit can give more of those limited use bonuses, but you need to be able to hit (Dexterity) and stay in the fight long enough to use your Grit (Constitution).


    You do have classes in 5e that have mechanics similar to Grit (and Panache).

    The Monk has Ki. Ki can be regained by a Long Rest or Short Rest (requiring 30 minutes of meditation) and you recover all.
    The Sorcerer has Sorcery. Sorcery can only be regained after a Long Rest.

    You could probably use systems similar to theirs, at least in terms of the amount of points in the pool. Adding in Grit's ability to regain points on a critical hit or by reducing an enemy to 0HP or less could probably work pretty well too.
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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    I do not recommend the Iron Kingdom's route of the token system. In the token system you fuel your powers in the combat. Depending on your class and power, you gain a token doing some basic thing. After getting a certain number of tokens you spend them to do a Cool Thing. I don't think this works because you're spending several rounds doing basic attacks and/or moves or maybe do nothing. When you can finally do the Cool Thing the combat may be over or the reason for doing the Cool Thing no longer applies. If you're lucky to be able to do the Cool Thing that was the only Cool Thing you did that combat.

    Grit, panache, sorcery points, ki, essentia, etc. are all different names for the same thing, You have points to spend to enable to do Cool Things. The more powerful the Cool Thing the more points it costs. The trick is to find the right balance of placing the cost to spend on a Cool Thing, the number of points a character gets, and how often a character regains points spent. There is a point to not wanting a character to nova all the time blasting through everything. However, you must be mindful of in the interest of preventing that you don't make the cost, amount, and recovery so onerous as to be frustrating to use the player doesn't get to enjoy using his stuff because he hardly ever does. You don't want characters too powerful, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a character being powerful.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    Thank you all very much for the feedback!

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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    Personally, I'm not a fan of how easily grit divorces the effect gained by spending it from the action that generated it - somehow, getting a critical hit at noon can allow you to knock a creature out of the sky at 3:00 pm. Feels very "mechanics first, concept second.".
    I see the complaint, but I think you're missing the purpose of the mechanic. It's not to simulate "getting a crit makes me lead into this other stunt." The means of recovering grit are things that the class wants to encourage the PC to do. Admittedly, "get a crit" is out of his control for the most part. But anything that is stylish but perhaps not always the most optimal choice that recovers grit is something that makes you more like the archetype you're playing.

    Why does the gunslinger squint and spit out a toothpick? Maybe it increases his grit. (I know, that's not actually something that recovers grit, but I hope you get the idea.)

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Experiences with Pathfinder Gunslinger's "Grit" or Similar Systems?

    In my experience running a game for a Pathfinder group that includes a Gunsligner (Mysterious Stranger archetype), the fact that you get Grit on a kill or crit makes it more of a gambling mechanic--rather than making regular attacks to charge up your ultimate, you blow your Grit on something that looks like it needs it (most Gunslinger deeds are stabilization things like "ignore this gun's Broken status" or "ignore the range limitation on this rules quirk", with the occasional status effect thrown in for spice), and then get the Grit back when killing something during combat cleanup. If you're lucky, you regain grit on the same shot that you spent it on. If you're running out of Grit as a Gunslinger in Pathfinder, just ask your GM to add more cannon fodder to recharge on during encounters. Alternatively, ask the wizard to cast Sleep more, so you can walk up next to something and auto-crit it with Coup de Grace.

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