OOTS #1242 - The Discussion Thread

[Yanisa]

I figured that’d get reduced by the Int penalty as well.

The human skill gets added after the penalties.

Here is the full paragraph on 62, without the example Rogue:

Determine the number of skill points your character gets.
This number depends on his or her class and Intelligence modifier, as shown on Table 4–1: Skill Points per Level.
A character gets at least 4 skill points (1 × 4 = 4) at 1st level, even if he or she has an Intelligence penalty.
A human gets 4 extra skill points as a 1st-level character.

Said table has as main cell: "(2 + Int modifier) × 4" and an subscript stating "1 Humans add +4 to this total at 1st level.".



So going all the way round, a human commoner with 3 int has 8 skill points.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, I'm honestly not 100% sure, but that reading seems reasonable yeah.

[Vikenlugaid]

The real question is how the hell could a human live with 3 int? I mean, a chicken has 2 int...

[danielxcutter]

The real question is how the hell could a human live with 3 int? I mean, a chicken has 2 int...

3 Int is just the minimum for 3d6, which is the classical way to roll for stats.

[Vikenlugaid]

3 Int is just the minimum for 3d6, which is the classical way to roll for stats.

Yes, but with 8 skill point you can train 8 skills, i just don't see a creature almost as dumb as a chicken being capable of doing 8 different complicated tasks XD

[Yirggzmb]

Yes, but with 8 skill point you can train 8 skills, i just don't see a creature almost as dumb as a chicken being capable of doing 8 different complicated tasks XD

I'm not super familiar with D&D, but would they have to be complicated tasks?

[danielxcutter]

One skill rank isn’t that much. That just lets you make rolls for some skills in the first place.

[KorvinStarmast]

The real question is how the hell could a human live with 3 int? I mean, a chicken has 2 int...

I guess you've never gone to City Hall and dealt with ... wait, I'd better stop.

[InvisibleBison]

The real question is how the hell could a human live with 3 int? I mean, a chicken has 2 int...

I interpret Intelligence as being nonlinear. A person with Int 3 isn't marginally more intelligent than an animal with Int 2, they're enormously more intelligent than it. They're only stupid compared to a normal human.

[hamishspence]

I interpret Intelligence as being nonlinear. A person with Int 3 isn't marginally more intelligent than an animal with Int 2, they're enormously more intelligent than it. They're only stupid compared to a normal human.

That's certainly the way The Giant has it:

I don't consider any of the characters in the entire comic to be "mentally handicapped." Thog is not smart compared to Roy, but he does not have an atypical neurology. He is capable of determining right from wrong, and chooses wrong consistently. I know people like to project this idea onto Thog that he's not responsible for his actions because he's dumb, but…he is responsible. We know he is because the orcs on the island are the same as him and don't murder people just for fun.

In D&D terms, anyone who has an Intelligence of 3 or higher is capable of determining right from wrong (because they have an alignment); speak, read, and write a language fluently; and generally looking after themselves on a daily basis while adventuring in a dangerous dungeon. This does not describe most real-world people with mental handicaps (to my knowledge). Which means the bulk of the spectrum of mental handicaps probably sits somewhere below 3 and above 2, because it's a system designed for action-adventure and it doesn't need more granularity than that. It doesn't want to have the conversation, and honestly, in this case, I'm inclined to agree. D&D is a system that only describes people within a certain range of mental ability, and OOTS follows suit.

If I was depicting Thog (or anyone else) as displaying behaviors and attitudes common among actual mentally disabled people and then mocking them, you would certainly have a point. I don't think I am. Thog is "fantasy dumb." It's a trope of the genre that I'm using, not a reflection of the real world. I know everyone loves to repeat that line I said about the only worthwhile part of fantasy being what it tells us about the real world, but that doesn't need to apply to every single part of the entire story. Sometimes, you have to sell the rest of the fantasy world straight in order to highlight the things you want to talk about. The "barbarians are stupid" cliché falls into that category for me.

[Svata]

3 Int is just the minimum for 3d6, which is the classical way to roll for stats.

also it's just the minimum for sapient creatures. it's not allowed to go lower. I can't quote page and paragraph to you, but it's definitely in the rules

[Vikenlugaid]

I'm not super familiar with D&D, but would they have to be complicated tasks?

They don't have to be, but can be. The most mentally complicated skills need int so anyone with 3 int would be very bad at them anyway... But things like lockpicking for example? Is weird

[RatElemental]

A thing to keep in mind is that in D&D Intelligence is the measure of how well a character learns new things, retains information, and their problem solving skills. It is not a measure of how well informed or even really how "smart" you are.

An int penalty reduces your knowledge check results because it represents a poor memory, your disable device check results because it represents poor problem solving skills, and reduces skill points gained on level up because it represents a difficulty learning new things, etc.

[Yirggzmb]

A thing to keep in mind is that in D&D Intelligence is the measure of how well a character learns new things, retains information, and their problem solving skills. It is not a measure of how well informed or even really how "smart" you are.

Aren't a persons ability to learn, retain things, and problem solve also how the real world defines "smart"?

[Skull the Troll]

Aren't a persons ability to learn, retain things, and problem solve also how the real world defines "smart"?

I think he is defining smart as in natural ability. You are defining it as "educated". Now "educated" trains intelligence just like exercise trains strength, but otherwise, they aren't related. My wife has a high school diploma that she remembers almost none of due to a very difficult childhood, but she regularly schools my entire family, most of whom have advanced degrees, in Catan, Avalon, etc. Just don't ask her who fought in World War I.

[hamishspence]

"Ability to educate easily" is separate from "actually being educated"

In D&D terms, a character can have Int 18, and yet have spent no points on any Knowledge skills.

[Yirggzmb]

I think he is defining smart as in natural ability. You are defining it as "educated". Now "educated" trains intelligence just like exercise trains strength, but otherwise, they aren't related. My wife has a high school diploma that she remembers almost none of due to a very difficult childhood, but she regularly schools my entire family, most of whom have advanced degrees, in Catan, Avalon, etc. Just don't ask her who fought in World War I.

But I was defining it as natural ability. I'm not concerned with what a person has learned. Just with how well they can learn, if given an opportunity. Also things like flexible thinking (ie, finding solutions to problems).

I've known plenty of poorly educated people who I would call smart. Plenty of older family members for instance - quick as a whip, but didn't get a lot of schooling because of their circumstances at the time.

[Squire Doodad]

I think he is defining smart as in natural ability. You are defining it as "educated". Now "educated" trains intelligence just like exercise trains strength, but otherwise, they aren't related. My wife has a high school diploma that she remembers almost none of due to a very difficult childhood, but she regularly schools my entire family, most of whom have advanced degrees, in Catan, Avalon, etc. Just don't ask her who fought in World War I.

Avalon as in mythology or a board game of some sort

[Peelee]

Avalon as in mythology or a board game of some sort

Board game.

[danielxcutter]

...Why the red text?

[Peelee]

...Why the red text?

Because the other option would require a lot more red text.

[Squire Doodad]

Because the other option would require a lot more red text.

Oh. Understood. Was just asking if they meant they taught mythology, was not trying to go into detail about it.

[danielxcutter]

...I actually don't get what was the problem. Can someone explain?

[Peelee]

...I actually don't get what was the problem. Can someone explain?

I used red text as a very gentle nudge to make sure the conversation did not go towards a forbidden topic, namely real-world religion.

[bunsen_h]

I used red text as a very gentle nudge to make sure the conversation did not go towards a forbidden topic, namely real-world religion.

Now you've got me thinking about "Anne of Avalon", who sleeps on a catafalque beneath Prince Edward Island, surrounded by her school chums of the Round Table. They will awaken in the time of Canada's greatest need for potatoes and homely stories.

[DavidSh]

Now you've got me thinking about "Anne of Avalon", who sleeps on a catafalque beneath Prince Edward Island, surrounded by her school chums of the Round Table. They will awaken in the time of Canada's greatest need for potatoes and homely stories.

I guess that is a riff on Anne of Avonlea, but it is confused by the existence of an Avalon Peninsula in Newfoundland. Not to mention the other Avalons in places as disparate as New Jersey and California,.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I guess that is a riff on Anne of Avonlea, but it is confused by the existence of an Avalon Peninsula in Newfoundland. Not to mention the other Avalons in places as disparate as New Jersey and California,.

Five in Canada, alone.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!