OOTS #1242 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

Don't have to win to be competent. I'm thinking of stuff like the dining hall fight, where they went down from a few blown saves but still went out swinging and did well before that point. Instead of cheesing it with Sunny's AMF and then incapacitating most of the Order with a hail mary like it's been so far.

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

You do realize that S&S had to pull that hail mary precisely because the Order put up a competent fight and turned the table on them? Which means this is like the dining hall fight (the Order fights well, but the enemies pull some special ability and everyone fails those saves).

[danielxcutter]

I’m not complaining about the comic NOW. I’m just complaining that me wanting the Order to actually get stuff done makes you guys all but say I’m whining.

[Peelee]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

The entire fight isn't going like 1241 though. And it never has. You're acting like it would be before the fight was even finished. That's the issue. Your own assumptions seem like they're what's making you upset here.

[danielxcutter]

I’m not saying that it is or will I’m just saying I don’t want it TO BE like that.

[Peelee]

I’m not saying that it is or will I’m just saying I don’t want it TO BE like that.

Slbut you get why you've gotten so much pushback, right? You're saying that you don't like what's happening before that's even really happened. You had issues with the last comic because you didn't want it to go in. A certain direction, and liked this comic because it turned out to not go in that direction. It's like saying "man I really hate that Roy lost his sword forever" back when he dropped it in the mountains - yes, I would have really hated that, but I waited until after the scene was done to really even see that as a probably outcome. We're in the middle of a fight scene, and often times the Giant has those go back and forth between the combatants. At the first volley you started assuming that it was over and specifically said you hated that the Order was ground into paste. But they weren't. You saw a foregone conclusion and complained about that instead of what was actually happening. And that is why I, for one, did not think it was a fair criticism.

[Skull the Troll]

The problem sometimes is that we have times for weeks-long discussions about things that happen two seconds apart in the story. I don't think he's whining if he says he doesn't like a certain direction at a particular point in time, but you also have a good point about sometimes you have to wait (weeks, months, even years and decades) to get certain answers. In the beginning it was a bit unbelievable from a rules standpoint what happened, but it didn't bother me because I have seen some crazy things happen with dice in my time. an entire party blowing an easy save ain't nuthin'. I remember a run that had the entire party (3 people) roll a fumble for two straight rounds. It happens, but we still complain about it years later though.

[Psyren]

Bloodfeast is the MVP here so far - well, next to Haley anyway

[Angelalex242]

Belkar: Dear Diary, Mood:Apathetic...my life is spiralling donwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsv1qrHGVE

[Potatopeelerkin]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject.

[Tsriel]

I lol'd harder than I meant to with the last panel.

[KorvinStarmast]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. I too find the "can't make a saving throw" incidence to be a bit annoying; as noted in another post, the copper piece harlot servicing drama seems to be an offered excuse. Not worth getting in an uproar over, but as a player of D&D who has played a few high level games (the story emulates this being a high level quest at this point for the party) it comes off as dissonant. On the other hand, when you have seven PCs and three animal companions to share the spotlight some convolutions are going to happen to balance out the narrative and set up the jokes.

[Wintermoot]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. I too find the "can't make a saving throw" incidence to be a bit annoying; as noted in another post, the copper piece harlot servicing drama seems to be an offered excuse. Not worth getting in an uproar over, but as a player of D&D who has played a few high level games (the story emulates this being a high level quest at this point for the party) it comes off as dissonant. On the other hand, when you have seven PCs and three animal companions to share the spotlight some convolutions are going to happen to balance out the narrative and set up the jokes.

See, that is a perfectly reasonable and well stated complaint. "I don't like that everyone missed their saving throw because it is dissonant with my experience playing the game, but I understand that this is a story, not a game and sometimes concessions have to be made"

I have no problem with that. I don't agree with it, but it's a perfectly valid complaint. And you recognize it's a subjective experience.

But Potatopeelerkin's post is very one-sided about "the forum jumping down people's throats when they say they don't like aspects of the plot". If people posted like you posted, they wouldn't "get attacked" (not that I agree that Daniel or others ARE being attacked)

Daniel and others DON'T come in and say "I don't like this." They come in with outrageous hyperbole like "The Order gets pounded into dirt" and "the comic is ruined" and so on.

Its natural for the other side to come to the defense of the comic when attacked in such a ham-handed and over-the-top fashion. The party isn't pounded into dirt. This is one round in a multi round combat. The comic isn't 'ruined'. On contrary, slavish following of the rules WOULD ruin the comic because what's fun in playing a game, wouldn't necessarily work when writing a narrative.

I don't mind if Daniel and others don't like an aspect of the plot. I mind with Daniel and others say the comic is OBJECTIVELY ruined and bad and Rich is a hack who doesn't know the rules and so on and so on.

So I disagree with Potatopeelerkin. From my viewpoint, its not the forum jumping down Daniel's throat and demanding he show objective proof for his dislike. its Daniel recognizing his dislike is SUBJECTIVE that's needed. Perhaps by not overstating every complaint with aggressive confrontational language. Perhaps by acknowledging that, yeah the story needs often differ from the simulationist needs, exactly as you do.


Look: Here's -my- complaint. I don't care about the party all missing saving throws. I've ALSO playing in many high level campaigns. though mostly in 2nd Edition and Pathfinder, not in 3rdE. And I've seen this happen plenty of times.

What triggers me is I don't care for Serini's super knockout poison. Why? Because the poison rules in 3rdE and Pathfinder are garbage which render poisons useless. The best they ever do is a little ability damage with maybe a sickened rider or something. And they all have distressingly low saving throws. The idea that Roy or O'chul could be taken out by any poison is laughable.

BUT, its a story, not a simulation. So I can let that go even though is triggers MY simulationist dissonance.

[danielxcutter]

Hold the hell up. I never said that the comic was ruined and I absolutely didn't say Rich was a hack who doesn't know anything. I explicitly said I like how the fight is going now.

[elros]

Regarding adhering to the rules versus following the plot: authors of fantasy novels recommend never putting your party's adventure into story form. You may use the characters or adventures as inspiration, but the flow of a story is very different than what happens on the tabletop.
That is why I expect unusual probabilities and other twists- it makes for a better story. If people want to see a campaign occur, they could watch something on Twitch!

[Drake Halfmoon]

For anyone complaining about characters failing their Will Saves, I should point out that the showdown with Roy and Durkula featured Roy making most of his Will Saves and even the fight in the Dungeon showed Roy resisting the Vampires' hypnotic gazes.

In this fight, Serini and Sunny had home-field advantage, which included the element of surprise, a closed space where a Beholder can be super-effective, and multiple magic items.

And the battle isn't even over yet; in fact, Serini is continuing to make the same error as before. She's focusing all of her effort into neutralizing Haley. This gave Bloodfeast the opportunity to awaken Minrah who calmed Belkar, who freed Elan of Sunny's charm. So far she is 0 for 12 in tagging our beloved Rogue (on-panel) and is showing no signs of altering her strategy.

If Haley can keep dodging, the rest of the Order can get back in action, and it should be a clean victory. Failing that, they can pull of their most successful stratagem; running away.

[gellerche]

Just wanted to say I love the foreground/background effect in panel 5!

[Squire Doodad]

And the battle isn't even over yet; in fact, Serini is continuing to make the same error as before. She's focusing all of her effort into neutralizing Haley. This gave Bloodfeast the opportunity to awaken Minrah who calmed Belkar, who freed Elan of Sunny's charm. So far she is 0 for 12 in tagging our beloved Rogue (on-panel) and is showing no signs of altering her strategy.

To be fair, Bloodfeast is not exactly an obvious threat, and for a round or two Haley was the only unoccupied member of the Order. Haley may be the only one getting good rolls here and is getting consistent 12s and 17s and will fail once she gets a 7 or worse. I would have expected her wealth of magic items to also involve some sort of improved blasting alternative, but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one.

[madrobin]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject.

Well, it's the internet, a place where everyone is an expert (and usually, the only expert) and the rules of civil discourse, decorum, and rationality get flung out the window. Opinions are stated as fact and disagreement with those opinions is likewise stated with a degree of anger and outrage that makes no sense.

I love the OOTS story, and the Giant is an excellent writer, but there are some aspects of the story I don't like and quite a few where I think the overall narrative was subtracted from rather than added to. I realize that this is blasphemy as far as some are concerned. But hell, there's some Shakespeare I don't like, and some where the plot really just doesn't hold together.

We really shouldn't stone the unbeliever(s). That's so Last Century {scrubbed}.

[danielxcutter]

Please don’t start a flame war over me.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, Bloodfeast is not exactly an obvious threat, and for a round or two Haley was the only unoccupied member of the Order. Haley may be the only one getting good rolls here and is getting consistent 12s and 17s and will fail once she gets a 7 or worse. I would have expected her wealth of magic items to also involve some sort of improved blasting alternative, but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one.

Ever since her bow got taken away Haley's not made a single roll, actually. Well, technically, no one's made any rolls for the entire run of the comic, but I digress; Serini is the one flubbing her attack rolls on Haley, unless Haley just has an AC in low orbit.

[mrelegos]

Roy made rolls when he played 1st edition while he was dead.

[PattThe]

Ever since her bow got taken away Haley's not made a single roll, actually. Well, technically, no one's made any rolls for the entire run of the comic, but I digress; Serini is the one flubbing her attack rolls on Haley, unless Haley just has an AC in low orbit.

I assumed she was dodging. What are the rules on that in 3.x?

[mrelegos]

I assumed she was dodging. What are the rules on that in 3.x?

Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

(Taken from d20srd)

So even if Haley is taking actions to dodge, she's still not rolling. Just increasing her AC by 4

[RatElemental]

Roy made rolls when he played 1st edition while he was dead.

Oh right, I forgot about that. I guess they did when they all played Parcheesi in Azure City too.

[Wintermoot]

Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

(Taken from d20srd)

So even if Haley is taking actions to dodge, she's still not rolling. Just increasing her AC by 4

I had a ninja with some third party feat once that let you make an acrobatics roll and use it in place of your AC for dodge missile attacks. Acrobatic Dodge or something like that. So maybe she's got that.

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

[KorvinStarmast]

...but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one.

Nice one!

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

But first, do you weigh as much as a duck?

[RatElemental]

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*

[Wintermoot]

*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*

ugh. I -am- the villain

/insert falling down Michael Douglas "I'm the bad guy?" gif/

[Jasdoif]

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*

I think expecting a line to form is reasonable, actually.

[bunsen_h]

There was one fight which had all members of the Order either unconscious or helpless at the end. They only made it out through the actions of their adversaries.