OOTS #1242 - The Discussion Thread

[Vikenlugaid]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

But that is already happening.

[mjasghar]

Flame wars happen because people keep digging at an initial post 3 pages after its already been discussed 🤦*♂️

[Potatopeelerkin]

Flame wars happen because people keep digging at an initial post 3 pages after its already been discussed 🤦*♂️

Anyone want to talk about Miko?

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone want to talk about Miko?

Sure. But since she's dead, let's be respectful.

[Dion]

Sure. But since she's dead, let's be respectful.

To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

[Peelee]

To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

The living can defend themselves.

So, in Stickworld, you're probably right.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

[Peelee]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

Eh, Eugene is mostly bluster.

[danielxcutter]

I was going to suggest Xykon but that would have been too easy.

[Metastachydium]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

What's not a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner, though?

[RatElemental]

Not sure I'd call Eugene a ghost, either. Ghosts tend to be able to manifest to people, be on the material (or ethereal) plane all the time, and generally be a nuisance you would want to hire a ragtag bunch of people with swords and divine magic and whatnot to get rid of for you.

Sure they can be benign, sometimes, and even benevolent, but just look at their stat block! Malevolence (Su), Frightful Moan (Su), Draining Touch (Su), Corrupting Touch (Su), the list goes on!

[mjasghar]

Eugene is on the astral/ outer plane boundary not the ethereal where ghosts hang out.

[Svata]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

As many skill points as we get I think everyone's an Expert nowadays

[Thermophille]

As many skill points as we get I think everyone's an Expert nowadays

Considering that we go to school for like 16+ years (in America at least, I'm not familiar with the educational systems in other countries), I'd say that's fair.

[Metastachydium]

Not sure I'd call Eugene a ghost, either. Ghosts tend to be able to manifest to people, be on the material (or ethereal) plane all the time, and generally be a nuisance you would want to hire a ragtag bunch of people with swords and divine magic and whatnot to get rid of for you.

Sure they can be benign, sometimes, and even benevolent, but just look at their stat block! Malevolence (Su), Frightful Moan (Su), Draining Touch (Su), Corrupting Touch (Su), the list goes on!

That figures. Ghosts are undead creatures, and undead would appear to be inherently Evil to some degree (I mean, that's the whole reason why the deathless exist as a (duly underused) creature type).

[danielxcutter]

That figures. Ghosts are undead creatures, and undead would appear to be inherently Evil to some degree (I mean, that's the whole reason why the deathless exist as a (duly underused) creature type).

Ghosts are actually some of the very few undead that aren't inherently Evil, actually!

[Metastachydium]

Ghosts are actually some of the very few undead that aren't inherently Evil, actually!

Well, tell that to the BoED! (In other words, we've got the usual mess here.)

[danielxcutter]

What does that say? And anyways the ghost entry doesn't say Often/Usually/Always Evil in the MM.

[Metastachydium]

What does that say? And anyways the ghost entry doesn't say Often/Usually/Always Evil in the MM.

I know that. I brought up BoEd because it came up with an entire new creature type which is basically just undead with the serial numbers filed off to bypass the whole "how can a creepy entity powered by negative energy end up L/N/CG anyway" line of questions.

Edit: I dug up the relevant section of the book (on p. 157); it goes out of its way to establish that despite the similarities, deathless are nothing like undead because undead

represent a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death

and they draw their power from that yucky, distasteful negative energy, while the noble deathless "are strongly tied to the Positive Energy plane, the birthplace of all souls."

Edit vol. 2: Not to mention that the very next page (no. 158) draws attention to the fact that ALL undead benefit from stuff like Desecrate (an Evil spell) and are hindered by stuff like Consecrate (a Good spell).

[Svata]

Yeah, well. BoED is y'know. bad.

[Riftwolf]

They could've sidestepped a lot of it by making ghosts a type of incorporeal petitioner so you could have benevolent ancestor spirits and the like which, while ghostly, weren't negative energy undead.

[mjasghar]

Well it’s a consequence of having the elemental and spiritual dimensions separated by the material instead of overlapping
Thus you could have areas with negative plane leakage twisting spirits and trapping them whilst positive leak could allow benevolent ghosts
However this also goes to the philosophy that the dead should move on and leave the world for the living

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, well. BoED is y'know. bad.

No need to be so harsh! It has a couple of pretty good feats and I like some of the monsters.

They could've sidestepped a lot of it by making ghosts a type of incorporeal petitioner so you could have benevolent ancestor spirits and the like which, while ghostly, weren't negative energy undead.

Nah, that would have made too much sense.

[hamishspence]

Yeah, well. BoED is y'know. bad.

To be fair, the affinity between Undead and "Evil energy" predates BOED - BOED (and BOVD before it) simply drew attention to it.

[danielxcutter]

No need to be so harsh! It has a couple of pretty good feats and I like some of the monsters.

BoVD and BoED have flaws yeah, but there's some nice gems in it. And some of the talk regarding alignment is pretty legit.

[RatElemental]

BoED also has the redemption rules in it, which were pretty handy for talking the BBEG's henchmen out of working for him.

[danielxcutter]

Like with every book really, it's really a matter of picking what works for you/your table.

That being said when it comes to villains, my favorite is Exemplars of Evil.

[Doug Lampert]

As many skill points as we get I think everyone's an Expert nowadays

Nah, most people GROSSLY underestimate how big a deal a skill point is. A human expert 1 of average intelligence has 28, let's look at what EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE represents:

ONE of them allows the expert to earn a good living as a skilled professional, he can take several, they're cheap.
EACH ONE allows him to speak and read and write a language as fluently as any native.

We spend enough time in school to learn 28 languages fluently? I missed that day or something. Ditto for the bunches of additional professions I have at high enough levels to count as "skilled" rather than "unskilled" labor.

If he is level 2, and has the correct choice of skills and feats, then our expert is at +16 to diplomacy (with 10 charisma, if he actually has any talent for diplomacy then he's better at this). At this point, he can RELIABLY, 100% of the time, make an unfriendly person friendly with 1 minute of conversation. He can also make someone who actively wants to kill him personally not care about him at all with that same 1 minute of conversation, again 100% of the time, no need to roll dice as long as there isn't actively a battle going on.

[danielxcutter]

Someone did the math to prove that even 1st-level Commoners can make a living, I don’t have the link but I’m sure it was on this forum.

[Peelee]

Nah, most people GROSSLY underestimate how big a deal a skill point is. A human expert 1 of average intelligence has 28, let's look at what EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE represents:

ONE of them allows the expert to earn a good living as a skilled professional, he can take several, they're cheap.
EACH ONE allows him to speak and read and write a language as fluently as any native.

We spend enough time in school to learn 28 languages fluently? I missed that day or something. Ditto for the bunches of additional professions I have at high enough levels to count as "skilled" rather than "unskilled" labor.

Most of us are not linguistic experts. Unless you went to school for that, of course. Same for "skilled" labor. Are you skilled or are you an expert? Take the show Car Talk, for example - the Magliozzis were automotive experts, containing a near encyclopedic knowledge of automotive issues that I would not expect from any given skilled mechanic.

That being said, you have convinced me - D&D does not accurately portray real life.

Someone did the math to prove that even 1st-level Commoners can make a living

Well I should certainly hope so.