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    Default Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    I mean, if an update mainly consists of a statblock (which is the same as the last time, with a few small changes), is it really an update?

    Does anybody like stats that much that they want them instead of an actual update? I know I don't.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2021-08-19 at 10:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    What's a "LitRPG?" Any notable examples?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Title: yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I mean, if an update mainly consists of a statblock (which is the same as the last time, with a few small changes), is it really an update?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Does anybody like stats that much that they want them instead of an actual update? I know I don't.
    Surprisingly yes.

    The vast majority of litrpgs are written by hacks, for underaged teens who are still impressed by big numbahs go up and think biggah numbahs is the pinnacle of writing. You can basically judge a litrpg's quality in inverse proportion to how much focus the stats get, and if you see a big honkin' blue statblock more than once in a blue moon, chances are you're reading trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What's a "LitRPG?" Any notable examples?
    Litrpg is a subset of fantasy that isn't just inspired by RPGs, it borrows the mechanics wholesale and usually makes them diegetic to the setting. Characters in setting gain level ups and new abilities, and know they're doing so. A lot of web serials have this genre as one of their tags, because it's big and hot right now.

    Good to great examples include The Wandering Inn, which is one of my favorite stories in any medium and Tower of Somnus which is extremely unique for one of these stories. And Hedge Wizard technically qualifies since the author says it's litrpg but it has shown zero stats so far about 50 chapters in and seems to have no plans to.

    Okay to good examples include Salvos (on the borderline of being obnoxious with how often stats show up), Wizard's Tower (a decent story actively HELD BACK by its litrpg elements), and Forge of Destiny (which technically qualifies as it is a rewrite/storyfication of a quest thread; basically a communal RPG where the group controls a single character and determines their action by vote); stats are entirely backend in Forge, and it presents as a mostly straightforward and much better written than average xianxia/cultivation novel.

    Terrible examples include The Primal Hunter, whose protagonist is a lizard person. No scales, he just doesn't act or have emotions resembling anything like a normal ****ing person and this is treated as a good thing and Inexorable Chaos, which is one of the clunkiest, most vapid stories I've ever read and yet somehow retains its spot in the top 10 most popular stories on TopWebFiction.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-08-19 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Added litrpg explanation

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What's a "LitRPG?" Any notable examples?
    A genre of fantasy fiction where the universe explicitly functions with RPG rule systems, often directly calling out levels and skills or stats as a thing that exists. Often overlaps with, but is not exclusive to, Isekai.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What's a "LitRPG?" Any notable examples?
    Subgenre of fiction where the MC, and possibly the entire world, has video game/RPG-like stats and is conscious about this fact, being able to 'level up' and gain power. I believe Wandering Inn is notable as a webnovel featuring this, though I haven't read it personally. Also very common in isekai stories.

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    It mostly just works or doesn't based on the skill of the author and competence of the worldbuilding. Like the example above of The Wandering Inn where it works fairly well as part of the inherent mystery of the setting. WHY levels and the leveling system is a question meant to be asked by the audience. Other times it's just a fantasy setting and people level because that's how it works because magic and wizards and the like. A lot of series seem to straddle a line between more traditional fantasy and LitRPG nowadays as well. Like a newer web serial I have been reading called The Hedge Wizard where no one ever uses terms like Level or Skill but I can clearly hear them not being said a whole lot.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    Practical Guide to Evil has a lot of close approximations, basically Named characters act like MOBA characters and explicitly gain new powers and even their version of Ultimates as they align more strongly with their role.

    Vampires in a lot of fiction act like this, getting "xp" based on how many people they eat.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Practical Guide to Evil has a lot of close approximations, basically Named characters act like MOBA characters and explicitly gain new powers and even their version of Ultimates as they align more strongly with their role.

    Vampires in a lot of fiction act like this, getting "xp" based on how many people they eat.
    I've never liked referring to Practical Guide specifically as LitRPG, the Named thing doesn't exactly match up and it's not a universal mechanic for the entire world. Outside of the meta way that anyone probably could screw with stories if they had the proper meta knowledge. Which is sort of the rub with PGE, it's a very very metacommentary story about stories but not really about games, gaming, or any other RPG related stuff.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-08-20 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    As others have said, it varies wildly. I've read a sci-fi LitRPG where the MC has a brain implant projecting holographic 'stat blocks' into his vision as an interface, an urban fantasy version where its 'viewed' by going into a meditative magic trance, and a classic isekai fantasy where its just A God Does It Shut Up.

    Maybe think of it like a written form of how OOTS works? The characters aren't in an actual game, its just that the laws of physics their world obeys maps closely to what we know as RPG mechanics.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2021-08-19 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    It kinda doesn't.

    the closest I've read to that kind of story is a naruto fan fic where Naruto basically gets gamer powers for flimsy to no reasons and basically there is like stats and character sheets for every character every so often. its kinda jarring and weird to see the characters just mapped out like that every so often as if the character is a machine examined to their core. and there were other weirdness like how they turned a training ground into a dungeon that Naruto has to grind through and constantly run and re-run with all the enemies being mutant animals mutated by chakra with levels and no one in the Leaf Village finding the fact that Naruto is suddenly rapidly gaining in competence and intelligence odd, or where he keeps getting these rare items from, and Naruto literally had an interface to embark on quests. there were some moments where the quest failure condition was something like "you will die" that was actually a little good because that reminds me there theoretically IS stakes to all this and theoretically Naruto won't just respawn, but I don't think it ever got far? didn't even get to Land of Waves I think just wasted time on pre-Wave nonsense like fanfics do or if it did get to that, I forgot. It was funny in places where the gamer system was clearly trying to make Naruto a more well-rounded person like all the quests to clean up his own apartment or whatever though.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-08-19 at 12:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I've never liked referring to Practical Guide specifically as LitRPG, the Named this doesn't exactly match up and it's not a universal mechanic for the entire world. Outside of the meta way that anyone probably could screw with stories if they had the proper meta knowledge. Which is sort of the rub with PGE, it's a very very metacommentary story about stories but not really about games, gaming, or any other RPG related stuff.
    Psyren was specifically asking for non-rpg fantasy that does it, I wasn't implying it was RPG literature.

    The vampire example even more so. Interview with a Vampire is from 1976, and almost certainly independent from Gygax but uses a power up system pretty close to leveling. Eat more people, get more XP.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Practical Guide to Evil has a lot of close approximations, basically Named characters act like MOBA characters and explicitly gain new powers and even their version of Ultimates as they align more strongly with their role.

    Vampires in a lot of fiction act like this, getting "xp" based on how many people they eat.
    No, he was asking for just a Fantasy genre that does it. Practical Guide to Evil is by definition not LitRPG, because that Lit stands for literal. As in Literal RPG world.

    A good example is Konosuba. In it adventurers have a magical card that keeps track of stats, experience, skills, ect. Why does it exist? Gods made it that way probably. They never really address it.

    Also to answer the OP; yes it is. Or perhaps I'll put it another way; focusing on stats, acquiring skills, and the like is bad writing. Again Konosuba is an example of a good version of this. We know the characters have stats. We know some things about their stats (Kazuma has high luck, Megumin has a higher strength stat then Kazuma), but the actual numbers? We never see them, ever. Because the writer knows that the actual number doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aqua's intelligence is a 3 or a 10. What matters is that whatever the number is, it is low.

    Other stories where we'll have page after page of stat sheet? All of that is completely pointless information that I will basically forget the instant it isn't in front of me. It is a waste of time and space, and often those stories are way too devoted to putting in ever more ludicrous combos of stat increases and the like.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    It kinda doesn't.

    the closest I've read to that kind of story is a naruto fan fic where Naruto basically gets gamer powers for flimsy to no reasons and basically there is like stats and character sheets for every character every so often. its kinda jarring and weird to see the characters just mapped out like that every so often as if the character is a machine examined to their core. and there were other weirdness like how they turned a training ground into a dungeon ...
    This is an example of a particular sub-genre inspired by The Gamer; most of them hew to its foundational tropes pretty closely, even if that doesn't make a lot of sense in the world it gets transplanted to. The training dungeon thing is one of those - in the original The Gamer, creating dimensional spaces for training/to have fights in is just a thing magical people can do. The lead character's power manifests as game-like, so it treats those as instanced dungeons. Other common aspects usually include that there is only one Gamer (hence the singular title) - so not everybody works with RPG-like mechanics unless they are being affected by The Gamer's power - and that they are nebulously chosen by some god-like power to achieve a particular important task, which is why their 'Game' interface often shows some personality and appears to try to nudge them toward achieving specific goals and guide the way they develop.

    These often open pretty slowly and stat-update dense, because they need to introduce the particular variant of The Gamer they're going to use and have their main character start to explore it, but if the writer is any good that should taper off into the background and not give statdumps or updates about trivial changes (ie 'your melee attacks now do .05% more damage!' kind of stuff), instead focusing on what The Gamer chooses to do with their power and the side effects they experience due to the fundamentally inhuman way being a game character makes them think and act.

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Psyren was specifically asking for non-rpg fantasy that does it, I wasn't implying it was RPG literature.
    This is literally a thread and a conversation about LitRPG with Psyren asking about LitRPG?
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    This is literally a thread and a conversation about LitRPG with Psyren asking about LitRPG?
    "Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?"

    I generally think of LitRPG and "actual fantasy" as being opposed concepts, as I said I wasn't implying either of those were LitRPGs, just fantasy that have a leveling system.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?
    SAO?

    There are various degrees of it. Sometimes it's the main theme, sometimes it's a background detail, sometimes there are statblocks a lot of the time, sometimes it they are important but you don't see them that much.

    The Wandering Inn is ludicrously long (you need a lot of free time if you are going to begin reading it, it currently seems to update over an hour's reading a week), but there aren't many stats in it, what you get is typically one or a few lines per update (sometimes a bit more, sometimes nothing), which I far prefer. There are a few that take it to the extreme of putting up tables of stats with what seem like hundreds of lines (hopefully not quite) every other update or so.

    Some updates are relatively short, I was complaining about the ones where the update is mostly stat-block, which means mostly not interesting to me.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2021-08-19 at 03:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    In any fictional setting where the characters have stats and those stats actually matter in terms of what the character can do and aren't just a shorthand to allow the author to push out some information regarding what powers and abilities various characters might have, then it's important for the author to track the stats in order to properly measure what characters are actually capable of doing. This is actually rare, mostly because authors rarely hold to the capabilities of stats at all even in settings that explicitly are games (for example, the famous/infamous scene in SAO where Asuna saves Kirito by breaking Admin-imposed paralysis through the power of love). So stats are often relatively pointless gobbledygook intended to fill copy space.

    That said, basic stats or stat summaries - often simple a level or grade number - remain useful in fantasy settings that are combat focused and where a character's outward appearance might have absolutely no relationship whatsoever to their combat capabilities. This is particularly notable in visual media like comics that have few other tools to convey character capability, and especially when the characters in-universe are supposed to be able to sense 'power level' in some fashion. This may not even be explicitly stats, but simply announcements of general measures of power. For example, characters in cultivator manhua are forever going on about the cultivation status of literally everyone they encounter because it serves as a rough guide to power tier.

    In fact, this sort of gradation extends into real life. Many sports have an internal tier ranking system that athletes advance through as they become more skilled, sometimes taking specific exams to do so. Gymnastics has such a system, with ten levels, with specific requirements to reach level 7 and above.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I generally think of LitRPG and "actual fantasy" as being opposed concepts
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    "Ok, I can get how that would work in a video game/MMO-style isekai like SAO - but how does that work in an actual fantasy setting that isn't part of a simulation? Or does it?"

    I generally think of LitRPG and "actual fantasy" as being opposed concepts, as I said I wasn't implying either of those were LitRPGs, just fantasy that have a leveling system.
    That would be where you are wrong, you can have actual fantasy that is LitRPG just like you can have actual SciFi that is also LitRPG. Not all lit RPG takes place in an actual game or simulation.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Every writing trick can be a tool or a crutch depending on how it's used.

    OOTS is basically a LitRPG, in that characters are 'making saving throws' to determine how well they absorb attacks, and levelling up. Elan got better at swordfighting by using his charisma stat instead of strength, not by getting better at fighting.

    A given tool is not bad writing, just how it's used.

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    *But Why meme*
    I don't see why not.

    The mechanical parts literally take me out of the fantasy world and make it feel fake. and since its all systematized, there is no tension. its like saying the protagonist is the chosen one and are part of a prophecy to defeat the big bad, you might as well as that victory is inevitable and that nothing the bad guys will do will ever work, as the end result is basically predetermined. while not as extreme, the concept of it all being mechanized like that makes it just a matter of big numbers. I've played enough videogames to see how that turns out.

    more interesting to me would be when the mechanics go wrong, or are abused, or broken so that you don't have the certainty of the system working as intended to save the protagonist and there is a chance they will fail.

    things like OOTS, I consider a different genre altogether, as its apart of rpg parody webcomics in the same vein as 8-bit-theatre, Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic, and so on, where the mechanical stuff is played for jokes and to show that system doesn't work perfectly. the entire point is pointing out how the system DOESN'T lead to a heroic fantasy story, but rather this strange world of classes and levels full of nonsense that clashes with what we think of as reality. the humor comes from the fact that the rules don't work.

    so its like, why be interested in litrpgs when they don't even look at the most interesting part of it all: the part where the system falls apart and starts going off the rails so that an actual story can happen.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I don't see why not.

    The mechanical parts literally take me out of the fantasy world and make it feel fake. and since its all systematized, there is no tension. its like saying the protagonist is the chosen one and are part of a prophecy to defeat the big bad, you might as well as that victory is inevitable and that nothing the bad guys will do will ever work, as the end result is basically predetermined. while not as extreme, the concept of it all being mechanized like that makes it just a matter of big numbers. I've played enough videogames to see how that turns out.

    more interesting to me would be when the mechanics go wrong, or are abused, or broken so that you don't have the certainty of the system working as intended to save the protagonist and there is a chance they will fail.

    things like OOTS, I consider a different genre altogether, as its apart of rpg parody webcomics in the same vein as 8-bit-theatre, Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic, and so on, where the mechanical stuff is played for jokes and to show that system doesn't work perfectly. the entire point is pointing out how the system DOESN'T lead to a heroic fantasy story, but rather this strange world of classes and levels full of nonsense that clashes with what we think of as reality. the humor comes from the fact that the rules don't work.

    so its like, why be interested in litrpgs when they don't even look at the most interesting part of it all: the part where the system falls apart and starts going off the rails so that an actual story can happen.
    That doesn’t speak so much to fantasy and LitRPG being incompatible as it does to your opinion that you think it makes for a bad story.

    I kinda agree with you, the LITRPG fantasy stories that have actually been better for being a LitRPG are few and far between. But that I feel more speaks to the weaknesses of the genre than an inherent incompatibility.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That doesn’t speak so much to fantasy and LitRPG being incompatible as it does to your opinion that you think it makes for a bad story.

    I kinda agree with you, the LITRPG fantasy stories that have actually been better for being a LitRPG are few and far between. But that I feel more speaks to the weaknesses of the genre than an inherent incompatibility.
    Look all I'm saying: good fantasy stories tend not to happen when everyone follows their schedules, never break the rules, make the trains run on time and attend their therapy sessions regularly.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-08-19 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    That would be where you are wrong, you can have actual fantasy that is LitRPG just like you can have actual SciFi that is also LitRPG. Not all lit RPG takes place in an actual game or simulation.
    How is it actual fantasy if it is literally an RPG? I'm happy to accept your definition of LitRPG if you can provide one, but as I have said multiple times that wasn't how I interpreted that sentence.
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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    How is it actual fantasy if it is literally an RPG? I'm happy to accept your definition of LitRPG if you can provide one, but as I have said multiple times that wasn't how I interpreted that sentence.
    Go read the Wandering Inn, it'll give you a good idea.

    It's a well fleshed out fantasy series with great characters, a decent plot, and really great moments and fun slice of life chapters.

    It's a real, well made fantasy world where the inhabitants happen to have a leveling system that determines a lot of aspects of their life. It shapes their society in interesting ways, and the series would not at all be the same without the leveling system. High level individuals are valued and feared, and the logistics of their military have to take into account factors like "counter leveling"; people pushed into a corner and desperate situations rapidly gaining power to push back against dangerous threats.

    Some people "worship" the system, some see it as a tool, and others reject it entirely.

    It's no different than other power systems in fantasy.

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    No, he was asking for just a Fantasy genre that does it. Practical Guide to Evil is by definition not LitRPG, because that Lit stands for literal. As in Literal RPG world.
    I always thought it stood for Literary...

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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I always thought it stood for Literary...
    and according to wikipedia your correct.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

    Having a fictional secondary world that operates by mechanics common to RPGs doesn't make anything not fantasy, it just means the world operates by a peculiar set of mechanics for some reason. There's no reason why a world can't operate that way, assuming it's a simulation - LitRPG/Isekai worlds that explicitly are human-created games like SAO take this to the fullest extent - but in many cases the RPG elements found in the world are part of a 'system' set up by deities or other higher-order beings (this includes OOTS, which is simply one of many worlds created by the gods and happens to utilize something like a 3.5e D&D rule set).

    Now, when characters in a LitRPG interrogate/manipulate/abuse the system governing their world or seek to break it or something similar then that's an example of a story engaging with the simulation hypothesis, which is admittedly more of a science fiction concept, but mostly LitRPG type stories are very 'light' in terms of dramatic heft and conceptual depth so this is extremely superficial.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

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