Are stats in LitRPGs just an excuse to avoid writing?

[druid91]

That doesn’t speak so much to fantasy and LitRPG being incompatible as it does to your opinion that you think it makes for a bad story.

I kinda agree with you, the LITRPG fantasy stories that have actually been better for being a LitRPG are few and far between. But that I feel more speaks to the weaknesses of the genre than an inherent incompatibility.

Honestly, the main element of LitRPG fantasy stories that I've seen that's good is the mindset of the 'heroes'. It's interesting seeing main characters who have to deal with literal murderhobo team-mates without it being portrayed as some massive moral arc.

It's also interesting to see what amounts to an RPG story with mechanics that are way too elaborate for a video game, and too drawn out for a tabletop.

[Gnoman]

Stats in a LitRPG serve a very important role for an amateur author. They're a crutch to keep track of what the characters can do, which helps greatly with consistency.

[Forum Explorer]

Look all I'm saying: good fantasy stories tend not to happen when everyone follows their schedules, never break the rules, make the trains run on time and attend their therapy sessions regularly.

I don’t see how that is connected with people who literally level up and learn things by spending skill points.

How is it actual fantasy if it is literally an RPG? I'm happy to accept your definition of LitRPG if you can provide one, but as I have said multiple times that wasn't how I interpreted that sentence.

Fantasy: a story containing fantastical elements such as magic, monsters, mythological creatures, etc.

LitRPG: A or multiple characters experience the world through RPG like elements such as leveling up, skill points, menu screens, etc.



One does not preclude the other. Something can have dragons and magic while the main characters level up from quests and spend skill points to learn new spells.

[Lord Raziere]

I don’t see how that is connected with people who literally level up and learn things by spending skill points.

In a "interpreting this literal" way, or a "level systems aren't orderly enough to cause no tension" sort of way?

[Forum Explorer]

In a "interpreting this literal" way, or a "level systems aren't orderly enough to cause no tension" sort of way?

The latter. I don’t see why an RPG like system would decrease conflict. If anything I’d think a system like that would increase it.

[The Glyphstone]

It is probably telling that of all the LitRPG novels I've read - a fair bit cause there are a lot of them on Kindle Unlimited and they're decent mindless fodder - the only one I ever really enjoyed was a loving satire of the genre. Written by an author who also produced serious LitRPG books, so it was obviously poking fun rather than pretentious 'durr look how original i am by subverting tropes'. But a satire all the same it was, and the fun was in the characters rather than the stat blocks.

[druid91]

Honestly of my favorite two...

1.) Ascend online is a fairly straightforward one. SuperVR fantasy adventures mixed with real world 'Streamer' problems.

And the probably better of the two,

2.) Sufficiently Advanced Magic, where it's implied that the levels and classes are a control mechanism by deities to keep magic contained within safe and easily useable bounds.

[Lord Raziere]

The latter. I don’t see why an RPG like system would decrease conflict. If anything I’d think a system like that would increase it.

If you get rid of the assumed protagonism of one person doing most of the leveling and thus winning because they're an invincible hero sure, I could see that.

[Rynjin]

If you get rid of the assumed protagonism of one person doing most of the leveling and thus winning because they're an invincible hero sure, I could see that.

This is a function of bad writing, not the genre. It happens in all sorts of fantasy. Not even just anime. The Belgariad is a lot like this, for instance.

[Lord Raziere]

This is a function of bad writing, not the genre. It happens in all sorts of fantasy. Not even just anime. The Belgariad is a lot like this, for instance.

Yes, but having a chosen one tends not to help with getting out of bad writing. while anime is one thing, as long as the training arc has got enough style it flies, but doing grinding straight out of an MMO? nuh-uh. been there, played that, got the Wow mounts. don't really want to read about it.

[Rynjin]

Yes, but having a chosen one tends not to help with getting out of bad writing. while anime is one thing, as long as the training arc has got enough style it flies, but doing grinding straight out of an MMO? nuh-uh. been there, played that, got the Wow mounts. don't really want to read about it.

What are you even talking about? What does the chosen one trope have to do with any of this? It's completely irrelevant to what everyone else here is talking about, which is the litrpg genre.

For that matter, what does grinding have to do with any of this? The best examples of the genre (see, again, The Wandering Inn) don't even have grinding as a thing.

[Lord Raziere]

What are you even talking about? What does the chosen one trope have to do with any of this? It's completely irrelevant to what everyone else here is talking about, which is the litrpg genre.

For that matter, what does grinding have to do with any of this? The best examples of the genre (see, again, The Wandering Inn) don't even have grinding as a thing.

Because the litrpg genre sounds too orderly.

its progression is too linear and mapped out. your never going to get a good plot out of that without some twists. sounds weird and probably subjective, but I've read a lot of stories and things tend get the most interesting when things go wrong, when the assumptions aren't 100% held to, when the exception, the anomaly, the spark of difference occurs. even formula shows over a period of time have to mix it up every once in a while to keep things fresh.

though I haven't read Wandering Inn, so I guess I'm just ignorant I guess.

[tyckspoon]

Because the litrpg genre sounds too orderly.

its progression is too linear and mapped out. your never going to get a good plot out of that without some twists. sounds weird and probably subjective, but I've read a lot of stories and things tend get the most interesting when things go wrong, when the assumptions aren't 100% held to, when the exception, the anomaly, the spark of difference occurs. even formula shows over a period of time have to mix it up every once in a while to keep things fresh.

This is not at all unique to or particularly prevalent in LitRPG as a style, except maybe in as much as LitRPG is currently popular so a lot of bad writers are currently trying their hands at it. Same thing happens/happened with 'Urban Romance' (ie vampire/werewolf books but don't you dare call it 'fantasy'), superhero stories, the many sub-categories of sci-fi.. Sturgeon's Law is absolute. If you read a lot of anything, you will find a lot of trash unless you go out of your way to curate your selections.

[Rynjin]

Because the litrpg genre sounds too orderly.

its progression is too linear and mapped out. your never going to get a good plot out of that without some twists. sounds weird and probably subjective, but I've read a lot of stories and things tend get the most interesting when things go wrong, when the assumptions aren't 100% held to, when the exception, the anomaly, the spark of difference occurs. even formula shows over a period of time have to mix it up every once in a while to keep things fresh.

though I haven't read Wandering Inn, so I guess I'm just ignorant I guess.

I genuinely don't understand what you're talking about, since none of that is implied at all by the genre. Why discuss and form strong opinions like this about something you have zero experience with? It doesn't make much sense.

[Lord Raziere]

I genuinely don't understand what you're talking about, since none of that is implied at all by the genre. Why discuss and form strong opinions like this about something you have zero experience with? It doesn't make much sense.

I dunno, people are counting parody webcomics about dnd in a rpg mechanicsverse manner as litrpg, and I've read those, so I wouldn't say 0% exactly, and sometimes you just look at something and you can see the trainwreck coming a mile away before it ever gets out of the station, y'know what I mean? and then you hear people's stories who actually gotten on the train and your like "yeah I don't think its a good idea to get on that train". and then you don't get on.

[Mechalich]

This is not at all unique to or particularly prevalent in LitRPG as a style, except maybe in as much as LitRPG is currently popular so a lot of bad writers are currently trying their hands at it. Same thing happens/happened with 'Urban Romance' (ie vampire/werewolf books but don't you dare call it 'fantasy'), superhero stories, the many sub-categories of sci-fi.. Sturgeon's Law is absolute. If you read a lot of anything, you will find a lot of trash unless you go out of your way to curate your selections.

LitRPG, because it uses game mechanics for the world-building, and often for the magic system as well, has a lower barrier to entry and extremely low verisimilitude expectations compared to most traditional serious fantasy. This makes it particularly vulnerable to quantity over quality writers. Many of the other categories you mentioned have similar tropes that mean the relative portion of material - especially when it comes to self-published digital only releases - has shifted compared to traditional fantasy and science fiction core genres.

[Dragonus45]

How is it actual fantasy if it is literally an RPG? I'm happy to accept your definition of LitRPG if you can provide one, but as I have said multiple times that wasn't how I interpreted that sentence.

Well to start the part where you assumed the Lit in LitRPG, or RPGLit as I also see it used in a lot of groups, is literally and not literary, but understand you would still be just as wrong if it did mean literally.

[Tvtyrant]

Well to start the part where you assumed the Lit in LitRPG, or RPGLit as I also see it used in a lot of groups, is literally and not literary, but understand you would still be just as wrong if it did mean literally.

I literally have no interest in this discussion at this point. I used literary, got corrected earlier by another poster, got corrected again. I ask you for a definition, you refuse to provide one and hard line as if I was making a point instead of asking for clarification.

So this is literary goodbye.

[False God]

I mean, if an update mainly consists of a statblock (which is the same as the last time, with a few small changes), is it really an update?

Does anybody like stats that much that they want them instead of an actual update? I know I don't.

Ignoring absolutely everything after someone asked the obvious question and was answered....

Considering many splatbooks for various RPGs, yes there are folks who want nothing but crunch.

To be fair when an understanding of any given character is based on their "numbers", a reader may have difficulty completing their understanding, and especially among the more crunch-happy sort, accepting an incomplete understanding of a character. In those terms, a stat block is probably exactly what they what.

Since, I'm going to postulate, these folks are probably drawn to this kind of writing on the basis that characters abilities are grounded in game-rule-like specifics rather than more flexible literary writing tropes where characters are able to do something or not do something as necessary to service the plot.

[Dragonus45]

I literally have no interest in this discussion at this point. I used literary, got corrected earlier by another poster, got corrected again. I ask you for a definition, you refuse to provide one and hard line as if I was making a point instead of asking for clarification.

So this is literary goodbye.

Numerous people have given various definitions of the genre, as it tends to be a very flexible one with a ton of overlap with just about any variety of nonfiction, yet you did try to make a very clear point that you said it was incompatible with fantasy. Which I did, and still do, take a hard line against. Have a great day!

[SirKazum]

"Man, bread sucks, I hate celery."

"Well yeah, you can have bread with celery, but most bread doesn't have it. So bread can be good as well."

"How can it be good? The taste of celery is horrible!"

"I eat bread every day, and I've eaten various kinds of bread from various sources, and I can say that the quality varies a lot, yeah... but there is good bread out there. Without celery. Because celery isn't part of the standard recipe for bread."

"I'm just saying, there's no way something that's made entirely of celery can be good."

"...Have you ever eaten bread at any point in your life?"

"No, I haven't, but I fail to see how that's relevant. You can often tell a food is going to suck without trying it first. A food that is 100% celery is going to taste bad, and since that's what bread is, I know it's bad."



That's what a lot of this thread sounds like...

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm puzzled by not counting OOTS, it's very explicit in how the game mechanics factor into the world. That would be like calling Discworld not fantasy because it is parody/satire.

Every genre has a lot of wriggle room.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm puzzled by not counting OOTS, it's very explicit in how the game mechanics factor into the world. That would be like calling Discworld not fantasy because it is parody/satire.

Every genre has a lot of wriggle room.

You might argue that as a comic, its primary medium is the art supported by dialogue, so its not really 'literary '? Thats semantics though.

[Dragonus45]

You might argue that as a comic, its primary medium is the art supported by dialogue, so its not really 'literary '? Thats semantics though.

Yea, especially when probably the biggest influencers of the genre as a concept are a light novel made into an anime series and a bunch of webtoons many of which are also adaptations of serialized stuff. Really the concept of LitRPG encompasses a lot of mediums and OOTS is kind of a perfect example of a webcomic that sits in the genre.

[Prime32]

LitRPG, or RPGLit as I also see it used in a lot of groups

Is "LitRPG" a Russian grammar thing? Because it always confuses me why it's in that order.

[druid91]

Is "LitRPG" a Russian grammar thing? Because it always confuses me why it's in that order.

It's short for Literary RPG. RPG Literature might make more sense though as a name.

[halfeye]

"Man, bread sucks, I hate celery."

"Well yeah, you can have bread with celery, but most bread doesn't have it. So bread can be good as well."

"How can it be good? The taste of celery is horrible!"

"I eat bread every day, and I've eaten various kinds of bread from various sources, and I can say that the quality varies a lot, yeah... but there is good bread out there. Without celery. Because celery isn't part of the standard recipe for bread."

"I'm just saying, there's no way something that's made entirely of celery can be good."

"...Have you ever eaten bread at any point in your life?"

"No, I haven't, but I fail to see how that's relevant. You can often tell a food is going to suck without trying it first. A food that is 100% celery is going to taste bad, and since that's what bread is, I know it's bad."



That's what a lot of this thread sounds like...

That's funny, and a bit true in parts, thanks for that.

[Traab]

Im honestly a fan of gamer fics and they can operate in a wide variety of ways. From being in a literal video game or game style world where everyone gains exp and levels up and earns skills and such and its a known part of the world. So Im A Spider, So What? is a good example of this. Everyone in this world has an rpg style setup for how they grow stronger. There are entire religions around it.

Then you have other stuff that falls into fanfiction categories. Basically, the main character of a series (generally one with a lot of combat) wakes up and suddenly he has stat blocks and skills and quests and they run the main storyline only with things changing based on this alteration. That can slide up and down from when you analyze someone it gives you a general idea of what they can do up to something like "Ok, he has 50 mana, his main attack uses 12, so he can only use it 4 times this fight" Generally only the main character, sometimes his most trusted friends know about it. The Games We Play - By Ryuugi is a good example of this. He can see levels of other people and gain a hint to their abilities by whatever title they have, but aside from being able to say, "Ok, this person is 50 levels above me, i shouldnt engage" it doesnt spell out any hard and fast limits on what they can do. And he can totally engage, and even win, a fight against someone like that, its just a LOT harder.

The third general setting is basically self insert stuff where the author gets gamer powers and is either sent to a single universe to solve all the problems, or universe hop solving all the problems EVERYWHERE. These tend to be the bad ones where they get all of the skills, are so super powerful and awesome its beyond belief and after a short period of time nothing can stop them. Gamer of Blades is a good example of this. It can be very obnoxious with its wall of text stat blocks and there is no way in heck anybody but the author is keeping track of the massive pile of skills and classes he has. I find I end each chapter having no idea what level he even is because I cant force myself to pay close attention to the stat block.

As for the original topic heading, they can be if thats all there is. I read a number of stories where the stat block can be anything from an absurd wall of text and numbers that is eye glazingly meaningless in length to occasional updates of a much shorter version. For example Only I Level Up has the main character check his level and stats from time to time but its literally like 5 stats and his name and level so no big deal. As well, the numbers arent nonsensically huge either. And a third story im reading has settled down and basically posts at the end of each chapter what stats or skills have improved. It can get a bit wordy but since its right at the end you are free to ignore it and hit next chapter. I would personally want to punch any person so lazy their idea of an update is just to post the current stat block.

[Ramza00]

Stats in books, data books in general appeal to a certain style of cognition that is inside everyone. But it is inside certain people more than others, and also at certain ages.

Think of a preteen boy who reads data books for it makes them feel a force of mastery and place in this world of imagination. The world is imaginary but the data and facts provide some form of structure on top of it.

—————

Note I am applying this to all settings that does this not just LitRPGs. For example Star Wars Legends had specific stats for Star Destroyers, X-Wings, etc. but when you have a fleet of 25k Star Destroyers in an entire galaxy it would not be perfectly standardized in reality. There would be multiple version numbers for the Star Destroyers, variants for specialized tasks, etc. Yet the non data books, that were narrative mainly followed the conventions from the RPG game the stats are borrowed from except when trying to make X special and so on.

[paddyfool]

I mean, if an update mainly consists of a statblock (which is the same as the last time, with a few small changes), is it really an update?

Does anybody like stats that much that they want them instead of an actual update? I know I don't.

I also don't like this, nor when the stats get in the way of the story too much.

On the general question of whether LitRPGs are all terrible, well... To reskin an old quote "90% of LitRPGs are sh*t, but then, 90% of everything is sh*t". It doesn't help that few authors of them get any editorial support beyond their fans' online feedback. Of course, within that 90%, I'd like to differentiate the tedious grinding sh*t (path of ascension, the primal hunter... seriously, don't bother with these) from trashy fun sh*t (e.g. Realmshaker, which I might offer up as a fairly short entry level taster to the genre). I'd also agree with prior posters that The Wandering Inn falls into the actually good 10%, although with some caveats even there (it is very, very long, and initially a tad shaky in quality, though it gets better; and it also has exactly zero walls of stats).