A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I'm not sure why she cares to let the Order know they're not screaming into the void. In fact, putting all other issues aside, I think she easily possesses the low level spite needed to actually have that ill will towards the Order for annoying her so much.
    Letting them know they're not screaming into the void might dissuade them from acting rashly. It might also stop the random cold calling.

    Of course any information she gives that makes the Order feel safer would be enough to change Team Evil's calculus. If they learned Serini was alive, her being at the gate would be a safe assumption for both groups to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    While I can easily understand V not doing so... one would think as much as it sounds like V has tried to contact her that they would have already said anything of cosmic importance they wanted to communicate. So that's a pretty weak long shot to insist that she should have played for.
    I doubt V would convey cosmic secrets in a 25 word sending. Remember that V had to assume every sending was their first message, so they all would have been light on details. "We have information you might not know" is probably as far as V would go for an introductory message.

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    I think the serious cosmic secrets have only been known for like less than a week to the Order, and that's assuming they're all in the loop about the past billion worlds.
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  3. - Top - End - #723
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think the serious cosmic secrets have only been known for like less than a week to the Order, and that's assuming they're all in the loop about the past billion worlds.
    There's also the planet within the rift, which V has known about for a while.

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I honestly don't see any good reason to think the following are exactly as easy to spot:
    • An rogue and her party carrying out the actual ambush she planned in advance
    • A much larger party unfamiliar with her methods carrying out a hasty modification to her original plans to include them

    I guess if your premise is that nothing Serini could have planned is any better than what the Order can do impromptu, your position would make more sense.
    No, my position is that Serini is either capable of setting up an ambush that is a real threat to TE or she isn't. If she is, then I don't see why whatever mechanisms she uses will be able hide her, her traps, and her monsters but not the Order. If she isn't, then it's a moot point.

    There's no reason why it has to be "hasty". They can afford to spend at least a day planning and picking their spells. She almost certainly doesn't have a plan ready, right now, to ambush Xykon anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I'm confused. Are Serini's defenses so weak that she requires the Order's help, or are they so incredibly strong that they can hold Xykon off NP despite weakening them to train up a group of newbies?
    First off, both can be true. The problem isn't that Serini needs help urgently, it's that she has no endgame. Her defenses could be strong enough that Xykon would need a whole year to get through them, and she'd still need the Order's help because Xykon can afford to take that long and nothing will have changed by the time that he does other than that he's leveled up (assuming none of the other factions in the story make their move).

    Second, I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in your position. There are too many branches of that hypothetical to sort through without spinning that out into it's own topic. If Serini had contacted the Order and arranged to work with them before they revealed themselves to Xykon, they might have had a few weeks. Now they don't. But one set of propositions that can't be true is {"Serini's defenses will hold indefinitely", "Serini doesn't have weeks to train the order"}.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I was presuming the implication is obvious, that training up a group of new people would weaken the defenses, but maybe it deserves spelling out. There are multiple ways this effect happens, such as:
    • The defenders are diverting their time away from defense
    • The newbies can screw things up since they're unfamiliar with how things work
    • Some parts of the defense may need to actually be disabled outright so they can be used in training
    So far, there's nothing we know of that requires Serini's active attention. Xykon isn't being stopped because the monsters are too strong for him to get past, he's being stopped because he has a lot of doors to go through and he hasn't figured out the teleport trap yet. We have no indication that Serini is actively coordinating the monsters' actions in the dungeons, and we don't know how it resets itself yet. Seeing as Serini only recently came back to personally defend the gate, it can't require too much attention on her part.

    There's also no reason to be training them near a critical part of the defenses that Xykon is currently testing. She's probably got plenty of empty caves to practice in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I'm not sure why she cares to let the Order know they're not screaming into the void. In fact, putting all other issues aside, I think she easily possesses the low level spite needed to actually have that ill will towards the Order for annoying her so much.
    This is true, but it's not a point in her favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    While I can easily understand V not doing so... one would think as much as it sounds like V has tried to contact her that they would have already said anything of cosmic importance they wanted to communicate. So that's a pretty weak long shot to insist that she should have played for.
    Not really. Sending is 25 words. That's not a lot when you don't know what position the person you're trying to talk to is, if they're even alive, what their attitude is, what they do or do not know in the first place, etc. The Order doesn't know how willing Serini is to let Xykon win rather than risk any fighting near the gate. They didn't know how hostile she was toward them. They didn't even know she was at the gate- last they heard, she left the gate to go adventuring.

    Most importantly, they didn't know she was getting the sending. V still didn't know as of the latest strip- and despite Serini's crankiness about it, V was correct in leading with the most basic information. If your #1 reason for thinking that you're not getting a response is that you message isn't getting through, and you're sending repeated messages in the hope that one of them does, then it makes sense to send the same message over and over again because that is, presumably, the message that he person needs to hear before they can understand anything else. And V had good reasons to make that assumption, given V's experiences trying to contact Haley.

    We know what information they would have needed to give her that (might have) changed her mind, but that's only because we saw her conversation with the paladins.

    Going back to my own test: nobody before that strip was saying "If Serini isn't responding to the sending, the V should try telling her that the gods are about to blow up the world." It wasn't an obvious thing to do until we knew what Serini's beef was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I think this is a bit unfair. O-Chul made the decision to destroy the gate after the entire Sapphire Guard died and before Soon manifested, which he probably didn't know was going to happen.
    Yeah... and Elan destroyed Dorukan's gate because none of the Order had any idea what it was or what the significance of destroying it was. And Roy destroyed Girard's gate because V knew something that he didn't.

    While secrecy has its virtues, there has been a pretty consistent pattern of "If the good guys knew more, they'd have been less likely to blow up the gates".

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Also the entire reason that destroying even one Gate was acceptable is because letting someone control the Snarl through it would be even worse, and it could be repaired. The problem is that since this is the last Gate, that's not an option - the risk is too great.

    I think Serini's projecting her "either/or" mindset on the Order and the Guard, actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Wait, I thought Bob was the Order in this metaphor, and they haven't come close to stopping Xykon.
    They are, and they've come much closer than anyone else. They actually destroyed Xykon at one, and when he had an entire army at his back at the other, they delayed them long enough (including his various elites) to a point where if it weren't for Miko he and Redcloak actually would have lost. Even basic recon like O-Chul's record of Xykon's spells known would be extremely useful intel for Serini to have, and it's info she could reasonably expect them to be tracking.

    Refusing to even speak to the folks who've fought him and survived, much less fighting him and almost winning, is foolish. The only justification for that I've seen, her wanting to keep the element of surprise over them, is flimsy - she clearly has resources they would never even think to ask about, and an Epic Rogue could lie her ass off in a sending to V if needed besides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I don't want to speak for the other side, but I've gotten the impression that a lot of the argument rests on the potential for the Order to be useful allies, how much they've grown since then, and that they understand the stakes of this Gate. Again, though, Serini does not know that about them.
    She may not know the growth bit, but she definitely knows they know the stakes, because Lien specifically told her they do. (I mean, she might think the paladin is lying to her face about that maybe?)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    "But... that's not even an option this time!"
    "Yes, I agree! Which is why I'm going to wipe your memories to make sure!"

    Yeah, I don't think she was actually listening to what they were saying and was mostly just rubbing her position in their faces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's not quite the same. After all the Order are going to show up, pretty much no matter what she says. While someone you are Ghosting...typically only communicates to you through that manner and thus eventually stops when you don't respond.
    (Qui-Gon voice) I wish that were so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Which, admittedly, could actually be something. There are potentially tricks that Serini has against Xykon that requires Xykon to not be expecting Serini to be alive. So if Serini has something like that up her sleeve, than I guess you will be correct. We will have to wait and see.
    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I agree with this. I'm not sure the risk of this happening would outweigh the risks Serini is taking by trying to ambush the order, but it's definitely something she should be concerned about.
    Yeah, that'd be my concern too. Currently Team Evil still think Kraagor's Gate is just annoying, not actively guarded, and that informs how they behave.

    Heck, Xykon is even being pretty chill about it, since he's gaining XP and magic items. I know others have mentioned this is only making him stronger, but I don't get the impression he's actually gaining loads of levels (he referenced getting a small amount of XP). Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview are probably the more pressing concerns from an advancement standpoint, and I acknowledge that's a concern. But the point is that Xykon, the biggest threat, was happy to keep dungeon delving in ignorance because of these minor rewards, which buys Serini more time. Sometimes in chess you sacrifice a piece so you can improve/consolidate your own position, so you can distract an opponent, or so you can weaken their position.

    And I realize a chess analogy is going to make it sound like I think Serini is a hypergenius chessmaster who's been manipulating everyone expertly, so please know that I don't think that; it's just an example of why "Xykon gains XP and magic items" is not automatically a self-evident blunder, unless Serini thinks that strategy alone will work forever. Which I don't think we can claim one way or another with the info we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    All good points. Loose lips sink ships.
    Can I hire you to condense all of my forum posts? That was some truly skilled quote snipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    "But... that's not even an option this time!"
    "Yes, I agree! Which is why I'm going to wipe your memories to make sure!"

    Yeah, I don't think she was actually listening to what they were saying and was mostly just rubbing her position in their faces.
    While I understand and even sympathize with Lien's point of view, I am also not going to fault Serini for rejecting "yeah but we really, really promise this time" as a perfect argument. Heck, the paladins didn't even admit to learning the lesson she wants to hear: they're effectively saying "and we'd do it again to any of the first 4 Gates, before we let Xykon conquer the world for a few years/decades/centuries/millennia." Serini clearly does not believe that any of the first 4 Gates should've been destroyed, because even "just" reducing the structural integrity of the entire planet from 100% to 80% is an unacceptable choice to her. And she doesn't trust the people who are collectively responsible for taking it from 80% to 20% with her defense of the final 20%, no matter what they say. So yeah, I'd say she's not interested in hearing them out.

    But I wouldn't call it "rubbing her position in their faces." I think the scene makes much more sense as Serini trying to explain herself to the paladins, rather than Serini asking the paladins to defend their actions and then ignoring them/talking over them. She's already made up her mind on whether or not she trusts or will listen to them (she won't) -- now, she's just trying to communicate her worldview and they are not having any of it. And I don't blame the paladins for reacting the way they did, because it's a pretty wildly non-LG viewpoint to take, but that doesn't make it flawed logic nor does it mean Serini is communicating maliciously.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-09-20 at 01:20 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #730
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Can I hire you to condense all of my forum posts? That was some truly skilled quote snipping.
    Heh, you can't afford me. I have a dislike of the visual waste (in my view) of quoting loads and loads of text when what I like to respond to are the salient points. Granted, sometimes the trimming does not serve me well, but visually I like to reduce clutter. Personal preference.

    Serini clearly does not believe that any of the first 4 Gates should've been destroyed, because even "just" reducing the structural integrity of the entire planet from 100% to 80% is an unacceptable choice to her. And she doesn't trust the people who are collectively responsible for taking it from 80% to 20% with her defense of the final 20%, no matter what they say. So yeah, I'd say she's not interested in hearing them out.
    This is another case of "where ya sit determines what ya see" plays a large part, or, if she wore shoes, walk a mile in her shoes before formulating a critique.
    Which the OP failed to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They are, and they've come much closer than anyone else. They actually destroyed Xykon at one, and when he had an entire army at his back at the other, they delayed them long enough (including his various elites) to a point where if it weren't for Miko he and Redcloak actually would have lost.
    We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Even basic recon like O-Chul's record of Xykon's spells known would be extremely useful intel for Serini to have
    Given that she seems to have some significantly detailed intel on O-Chul, what makes you so sure she doesn't already have a copy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...the folks who've fought him and survived...
    Do you think maybe you want to rephrase this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.
    They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.
    They weren't playing Tiddlywinks outside you know. Xykon and Redcloak were almost alone up there because of the Order. A bit more clerical backup (like that Huecuva) and they could have had the Gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Given that she seems to have some significantly detailed intel on O-Chul, what makes you so sure she doesn't already have a copy?
    I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to. Rogues generally aren't known for their scrying skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Do you think maybe you want to rephrase this?
    I meant in a campaign sense. Roy at least came back with his whole face, unlike some.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.
    You are significantly more optimistic about the Order's chances of defeating Redcloak and the MitD at that point than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They weren't playing Tiddlywinks outside you know. Xykon and Redcloak were almost alone up there because of the Order. A bit more clerical backup (like that Huecuva) and they could have had the Gate.
    And we can give the Order credit for that. And, y'know, your overall argument becomes stronger if you say that Xykon's lowest moments were brought about when the Order worked together with a Gate Defender. But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to. Rogues generally aren't known for their scrying skills.
    The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I meant in a campaign sense. Roy at least came back with his whole face, unlike some.
    Fair enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    And we can give the Order credit for that. And, y'know, your overall argument becomes stronger if you say that Xykon's lowest moments were brought about when the Order worked together with a Gate Defender. But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.
    Given that she's the only "Gate Defender" left, I didn't think I needed to spell out that part of it It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together, and think she is dumb for not even having a single conversation to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.
    Soon, the paladin, was literally the only one who actually followed that agreement. Dorukan and Lirian were bumping uglies, Kraagor was dead and Girard lied about his gate completely. All it would take for Serini to know what was happening in that throne room - which she did - would be one more lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    I never understand why Dorukan and Lirian's "secret affair" constitute as a breach of "no interference" rule.

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    Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period.

    I do wonder if they did so knowing full well Soon and only Soon would keep it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period
    That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.
    I agree with you in principle.

    In practice, itís probably difficult to enforce the ďno spying, no Ďjust checking iní, no nothingĒ rule while dating.

    In reality, I donít think the distinction matters much. Lirian and Durokan agreed to see each other, and they did. Girard and Soon agreed not to see each other, and they didnít.

    Theyíre all dead and their gates are destroyed, and the vow is void, regardless of the letter or the spirit of the vow.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-09-21 at 08:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together, and think she is dumb for not even having a single conversation to that effect.
    Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.
    Point or not, the actual agreement and it's description seems to imply no contact whatsoever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."
    And you say your positions are any different?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."
    No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions. It just so happens that a lot of us would like her to do that. You appear to have worked through the problem backwards here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions.
    I agree she is doing those things. I donít agree that makes her dumb.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-09-21 at 09:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

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  25. - Top - End - #745
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions. It just so happens that a lot of us would like her to do that. You appear to have worked through the problem backwards here.
    ^ This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I agree she is doing those things. I donít agree that makes her dumb.
    That would be our impasse, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.
    And there'd have been no story.
    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    You are significantly more optimistic about the Order's chances of defeating Redcloak and the MitD at that point than I am.
    MiTD is a bit of a wild card, yes.
    But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.
    Soon's ghost army did it (and about had Xykon and Redcloak down for the count) until Miko screwed the pooch.
    The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.
    Concur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I never understand why Dorukan and Lirian's "secret affair" constitute as a breach of "no interference" rule.
    True love knows no such rules. Elan could tell us that.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period.
    Which places the problem directly in the hands of a pair of spell casting egomaniacs.
    I do wonder if they did so knowing full well Soon and only Soon would keep it.
    Given Soon's honorableness, and their (particularly Girard's) lack thereof, likely but AFAIK unconfirmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Point or not, the actual agreement and it's description seems to imply no contact whatsoever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html
    Which is almost carte blanche, narratively, for someone to break that promise. Elan could tell us all about that.

    Serini was dealing with a roomfull of type-A-alpha-males in conflict. Getting any agreement out of them at all was an achievement.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-21 at 10:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Given that she's the only "Gate Defender" left, I didn't think I needed to spell out that part of it It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together...
    Yes it is, and I don't object to that position. What I object to is the specific false claim that the Order has nearly stopped Xykon; a claim you don't actually need to support your overall point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Soon, the paladin, was literally the only one who actually followed that agreement. Dorukan and Lirian were bumping uglies, Kraagor was dead and Girard lied about his gate completely. All it would take for Serini to know what was happening in that throne room - which she did - would be one more lie.
    Your argument that Serini's information is limited to the throne room is based on that being the tracking the Scribble agreed to. But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?

  28. - Top - End - #748
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?
    The next to last panel of strip 1244 answers that.
    Avatar by linklele
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number
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  29. - Top - End - #749
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Yes it is, and I don't object to that position. What I object to is the specific false claim that the Order has nearly stopped Xykon; a claim you don't actually need to support your overall point.
    Fine, "come closer than every other group who has tried, including Serini herself." Whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Your argument that Serini's information is limited to the throne room is based on that being the tracking the Scribble agreed to. But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?
    Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

    My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

    My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.
    I think the fact that she brings up O'chul's personal katana indicates that she saw O'chul's conversation with Hinjo. I'm not sure why she would bring up that detail specifically except to throw O'chul's exact wording in his face.

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