A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I think the fact that she brings up O'chul's personal katana indicates that she saw O'chul's conversation with Hinjo. I'm not sure why she would bring up that detail specifically except to throw O'chul's exact wording in his face.
    Or because she saw Miko use his katana to smash the gem - which happened in the throne room.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Fine, "come closer than every other group who has tried, including Serini herself." Whatever.
    Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

    My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.
    I'm suggesting she started keeping tabs on O-Chul after seeing him try to destroy a gate, which was rather significantly before he headed to the North Pole.

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Or because she saw Miko use his katana to smash the gem - which happened in the throne room.
    Yeah she would have known about it, but it would be a pretty minor detail to bring up. I sort of see her comment as "oh, you want me to rephrase your promise so you can exact word your way out of it again? nice try."

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.
    So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all? If Xykon and Redcloak were able to walk into that throne room with all their backup, I believe Soon would have been overwhelmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I'm suggesting she started keeping tabs on O-Chul after seeing him try to destroy a gate, which was rather significantly before he headed to the North Pole.
    I'm well aware what you're suggesting. We'll have to wait and see.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all? If Xykon and Redcloak were able to walk into that throne room with all their backup, I believe Soon would have been overwhelmed.
    I'm not sure the backup would have mattered since only Redcloak and Xykon could affect the ghosts. However Redcloak getting there a little earlier might have saved Xykon enough damage to turn the fight around.

  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I'm not sure the backup would have mattered since only Redcloak and Xykon could affect the ghosts. However Redcloak getting there a little earlier might have saved Xykon enough damage to turn the fight around.
    They had at least three other clerics on their team. Moreover, Xykon got beat up so badly in the first place because Redcloak ran out of healing harming for him. So yes, more clerical backup could have easily made the difference up there, and the Order kept that from happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They had at least three other clerics on their team. Moreover, Xykon got beat up so badly in the first place because Redcloak ran out of healing harming for him. So yes, more clerical backup could have easily made the difference up there, and the Order kept that from happening.
    You have a point about the usefulness of healing, but Redcloak did have an extra cleric when he came in, and dismissed him on account of his low level. I think the same thing would have happened if there had been more clerics.

    I also forgot about the three Xykon lookalikes Redcloak made. They had enough magical power to be helpful, and Redcloak wouldn't care about their safety.

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    You have a point about the usefulness of healing, but Redcloak did have an extra cleric when he came in, and dismissed him on account of his low level. I think the same thing would have happened if there had been more clerics.

    I also forgot about the three Xykon lookalikes Redcloak made. They had enough magical power to be helpful, and Redcloak wouldn't care about their safety.
    The Huecuva was indeed one of the clerics I was thinking of. As it was under Redcloak's absolute control, he wouldn't have dismissed it like he did Tsukiko, but the Order prevented that by destroying it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all?
    I'm perfectly content to sit at "the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions" without going to any hyperbolic extremes.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Huecuva was indeed one of the clerics I was thinking of. As it was under Redcloak's absolute control, he wouldn't have dismissed it like he did Tsukiko, but the Order prevented that by destroying it.
    I see, I was thinking of the other hobgoblin clerics. I totally agree then.

  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    And you say your positions are any different?
    I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean. The only interpretation I can come up with is that you think I've been saying "Serini is doing exactly what I want her to do," which is nowhere close to what I've been saying.

  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I'm perfectly content to sit at "the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions" without going to any hyperbolic extremes.
    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon.
    Your claim was no less hyperbolic, or I suppose that should be hypobolic? Pot, meet kettle, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Your claim was no less hyperbolic, or I suppose that should be hypobolic? Pot, meet kettle, etc.
    My claim was exactly correct: the order was in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. Moreover, I am still willing to give them credit for that. You're the only one trying to force it into "the Order gets all the credit" or "the Order gets no credit".

  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    My claim was exactly correct: the order was in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon.
    Denotatively, yes. So were Kubota's ninjas. Your implication was that the Order didn't contribute in a meaningful way, when without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The problem is there is a massive gap between 'don't trust the Order' and 'don't communicate with them at all and actively attack them.
    She wants to dose 'em with Amnesia. Do you think the Order will allow that to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Denotatively, yes. So were Kubota's ninjas. Your implication was that the Order didn't contribute in a meaningful way, when without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.
    Actually, had Miko never been sent to bring the Order and start thinking they were evil, she'd have never destroyed the gate, and Soon and the ghost-paladins would have finished Xykon and Redcloak off.
    Last edited by JonahFalcon; 2021-09-21 at 05:29 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #766
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    My claim is the most hyperbolic claim. Ever.

  17. - Top - End - #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Actually, had Miko never been sent to bring the Order and start thinking they were evil, she'd have never destroyed the gate, and Soon and the ghost-paladins would have finished Xykon and Redcloak off.
    That What If goes much further. Without the Order, the army would have been utterly steamrolled (Xykon would have still had his dragon even) and Soon would have faced a Redcloak and Xykon with a lot more spells, plus the ability to step outside the throne room if things went south without getting pounced on by high-level adventurers.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That What If goes much further. Without the Order, the army would have been utterly steamrolled (Xykon would have still had his dragon even) and Soon would have faced a Redcloak and Xykon with a lot more spells, plus the ability to step outside the throne room if things went south without getting pounced on by high-level adventurers.
    Haley was also the one who figured out the shell game. If she hadn't pointed that out Sangwaan would probably not have used true seeing and spotted Xykon on his way to the throne room, and Durkon wouldn't have dispelled his invisibility. The army would have been busy fighting the fake Xykons, who would have wrecked shop on their own without the order (who took out all 3 of them). Hinjo would have been assassinated by the guy let out of prison to help with the defense. The breach in the south wall wouldn't have been patched by V turning the pikemen huge, V wouldn't have been there to dismiss the summoned elementals, really the whole thing would have gone far differently.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2021-09-21 at 08:05 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Surely the time in the comic when Xykon came the closest to being defeated was when he was killed at Dorukon's gate, rather than when he was almost killed by the paladins

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Nah, Redcloak still had the phylactery. Back with Soon, he knew that Redcloak's holy symbol was the phylactery and that he could tell people who came in once he'd destroyed Xykon's body and slain Redcloak.
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  21. - Top - End - #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Nah, Redcloak still had the phylactery. Back with Soon, he knew that Redcloak's holy symbol was the phylactery and that he could tell people who came in once he'd destroyed Xykon's body and slain Redcloak.
    Ah, fair enough

  22. - Top - End - #772
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Without the order, Dorukan's gate would be still intact though, so no battle.

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    Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.
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  24. - Top - End - #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.
    Or just grabbed one of the good-aligned sylphs working in the dungeon.

  25. - Top - End - #775
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.
    The Ghost-Martyrs of the Guard only got that chance because The Order's presence on the battle field.
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  26. - Top - End - #776
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.
    Though, again, we don't actually know if this is gonna work. Using a good aligned person was something Xykon theorized, not knew. For all we know, anyone who touch it would die just like the goblins.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-22 at 10:54 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.
    Interesting. What do you figure would have happened without, say, Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    My claim is the most hyperbolic claim. Ever.
    A bold claim indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Hinjo would have been assassinated by the guy let out of prison to help with the defense.
    Why? Without the Order, Miko wouldn't have murdered Shojo, so Hinjo wouldn't be a newly-crowned ruler, so Kubota wouldn't have had reason to orchestrate an assassination attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    The Ghost-Martyrs of the Guard only got that chance because The Order's presence on the battle field.
    Okay? And? I've already agreed to give the Order some credit for Azure City, and I've already agreed that the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions, so I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of here.

  28. - Top - End - #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Okay? And? I've already agreed to give the Order some credit for Azure City, and I've already agreed that the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions, so I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of here.
    It sounds like you guys are both sitting on the same point (that Soon took on the main job of fighting Xykon but the Order was critical to him having a chance to succeed) while assuming the other is taking an extreme position (the Order didn't help at all/ the Order did everything).

  29. - Top - End - #779
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    I definitely don't think the Order did everything.

    I think they did do enough that her refusing to even pick up the phone and learn more about them is showing shockingly bad judgment when the stakes are this high.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  30. - Top - End - #780
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    Default Re: Serini is a moron

    I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.
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